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Old 08-29-2017, 09:57 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by rmkrum View Post
You will find that using a multimeter to measure voltage, that Hot to Neutral is in fact 110 volts, as you would expect....

Most homes and campgrounds are typically wired so hot to hot measurement will show 220 volts total. That's because the two hot leads are in-phase...

Pretty much USA electrical code bog standard, single-phase power wiring found in pretty much every home. Even my Mom's 1950's glass-fused El-cheapo house can deliver 220 volts for an electric stove across the two hot leads.

Industrial stuff uses three-phase wiring, and that's a whole different story..

For the 50-amp RV connection, unless the RV has 220 volt appliances in it (we're talking huge rigs) the wiring is designed to only deliver 110 volts to the appliance because it is wired Hot and Neutral plus safety earth (ground) to an outlet or appliance.

Not-Quite-A-Disclaimer: I'm not a practicing electrician, but I am a well-trained systems engineer that really does understand electrical power distribution systems, AC and RF grounding systems, and 480 volt three-phase power systems in large manufacturing plants... I made a 50+ year career out of knowing this stuff...(grin).

And I managed not to get killed by the dumb mistakes so-called expert electricians have made in my facilities...that I ended up having to diagnose and correct. A great example was swapping a three phase line and neutral in a power panel!
I have read a number of posts that say that: 'hot-hot' will read 220v and that they are 180 out of phase.
Sounds good to me.☺ However.......
You are saying that they "are in phase".😨
So WHAT are they?
I would think that IF they ARE in phase, the meter would register '0', since the is no 'differential' between them.😞
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Old 08-29-2017, 10:28 PM   #22
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I have developed a pet peeve about people too lazy to spend the time to do a decent search of this forum or the internet. There are 1000's of threads available here with a wealth of information available to anyone willing to take the time. Moreover, there may be a depth of information not available from a few answers in a new thread.
What is the point of having all of the old threads available if they are not used by people seeking information? Maybe it is just a part of the instant gratification problem...just post your question, get an answer and get back to something else.
I have learned a lot from many individuals on this forum, people I have never met and will never meet. You do them a disservice if you just ignore what they have already answered.
If my post is viewed as mean, so be it.
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What's the point of a forum where you can't ask a question? No one is asking YOU to answer the question and others seem to enjoy being helpful. I appreciate that more than the snarky attitude from the folks who've been around and seen it asked and can't be bothered to answer again. Besides, how are us newbies supposed to be helpful?
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Old 08-29-2017, 11:37 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by MelGoddard View Post
I have read a number of posts that say that: 'hot-hot' will read 220v and that they are 180 out of phase.

Sounds good to me.☺ However.......

You are saying that they "are in phase".

So WHAT are they?

I would think that IF they ARE in phase, the meter would register '0', since the is no 'differential' between them.


It depends. If I could put a drawing in here it would make more senseClick image for larger version

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So I'll use the traditional back of the envelope design explanation

This is a schematic diagram of the standard utility single-phase "pole-pig" transformer found on above ground utility poles all over the US.

The top coil is connected from the 1.2 K volt line on top of the pole, and ground.

The output windings are phased as the dots indicate. From either hot to neutral, you see 110 volts. Because of the indicated phasing, from hot to hot you get 220 volts. Engineering convention is to call these two load windings "in phase" because from left to right the voltages in the coils add. This layout also minimizes neutral current if the 110 volt loads are evenly distributed on each hot lead as someone else has mentioned.

Yeah, I hear you, bordering on TMI...but heck, I've been engineering and teaching most of my adult life
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Old 08-30-2017, 12:22 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lsbrodsky View Post
I have developed a pet peeve about people too lazy to spend the time to do a decent search of this forum or the internet. There are 1000's of threads available here with a wealth of information available to anyone willing to take the time. Moreover, there may be a depth of information not available from a few answers in a new thread.
What is the point of having all of the old threads available if they are not used by people seeking information? Maybe it is just a part of the instant gratification problem...just post your question, get an answer and get back to something else.
I have learned a lot from many individuals on this forum, people I have never met and will never meet. You do them a disservice if you just ignore what they have already answered.
If my post is viewed as mean, so be it.
Larry
I hear you. But have you ever tried to search for something? This site, although very useful, the search is not intuitive. Heck, I have even tried to search for my previous post, and I can't find it without going combing through information.

There's a difference between researching and searching just to find what you want to research.

Many of us here are love to help others, so I don't personally see anything wrong asking. If you are not interested, no need to respond.
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Old 08-30-2017, 08:03 AM   #25
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The vote is in. Yes Larry, you are mean.
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Old 08-30-2017, 08:37 AM   #26
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Another thing to note on the welder receptacle, even though it is a Nema 6-50, a dedicated welding circuit is allowed generous reductions in wire size due to the duty cycle of the welder so you may see a welder circuit with a 50 amp breaker supplying smaller conductors like #10s which would otherwise be limited to 30 amps. The different Nema configurations are there in an attempt to protect the user from harm.
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Old 08-30-2017, 08:54 AM   #27
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regardless of 30A or 50A, be sure to install a surge protection and improper wire protection. mine is installed inside, under the pantry floor in the AS 22FB the one I installed is from TRCI.net model; 35530
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Old 08-30-2017, 10:09 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Seagars View Post
I'm capable of asking novice questions all the time.
I would always appreciate the forums advice. It saves a lot of searching for what I hope is the right answer.
Comments from a novice newbie.
Don't feel bad. I consider myself to be computer capable, and when I search "door", I'm just as likely to get posts on bananas or adhesives. Often the word I search is not even in the post listed.
It gets compounded if you type two words into the search box. "Coffee cups". I can tell you with some certainty that you won't get information about coffee cups. Maybe axle grease.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lsbrodsky View Post
I have developed a pet peeve about people too lazy to spend the time to do a decent search of this forum or the internet.

I have developed a pet peeve with people who won't answer a simple question, but will take the time to compose a term paper on why the question was asked in the first place.
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Old 08-30-2017, 10:10 AM   #29
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regardless of 30A or 50A, be sure to install a surge protection and improper wire protection. mine is installed inside, under the pantry floor in the AS 22FB the one I installed is from TRCI.net model; 35530
Hi

If you get one (and you should), take time to understand how it works. Most have a timeout when they see an issue. They also can have somewhat cryptic readouts.

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Old 08-30-2017, 11:39 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mollysdad View Post
Don't feel bad. I consider myself to be computer capable, and when I search "door", I'm just as likely to get posts on bananas or adhesives. Often the word I search is not even in the post listed.
It gets compounded if you type two words into the search box. "Coffee cups". I can tell you with some certainty that you won't get information about coffee cups. Maybe axle grease.


I have developed a pet peeve with people who won't answer a simple question, but will take the time to compose a term paper on why the question was asked in the first place.
i concur
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Old 08-30-2017, 11:52 PM   #31
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Thanks to all....

As the OP I just wanted to drop back in and say thank you to all who offered explanations and information. I've learned a lot.

And while I'll always search first (as I did in this case), I won't hesitate to ask questions if I can't find what I'm looking for.

Thanks again,

Leo
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Old 08-31-2017, 08:12 AM   #32
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Re: In phase or out of phase
Power to your house is two hot wires exactly 180 degrees out of phase. 60 cycle power rises to a +ve peak then reverses to a -ve dip. Peak and dip are more than 110/120V but average voltage is 110/120 (or so) over the complete cycle .
You get 110/120 V nominal between hot and neutral (and ground) on each side of the 220 circuit, but each side rises to max +ve and dips to max -ve out of phase(or step) with the other. So if you hook up to both hot wires you get +ve 110 on one side and -ve 110 on the other..total 220.
Re the welder outlet...be sure it isn't a 3 phase ...unlikely since you say the plug configuration is the same as your trailer cord. I would be testing the voltage across each supply slot first. Looking for 110 hot to neutral and 220 across both hot lines plus 110 to ground each side
JCW
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Old 08-31-2017, 10:23 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lsbrodsky View Post
I have developed a pet peeve about people too lazy to spend the time to do a decent search of this forum or the internet. There are 1000's of threads available here with a wealth of information available to anyone willing to take the time. Moreover, there may be a depth of information not available from a few answers in a new thread.
What is the point of having all of the old threads available if they are not used by people seeking information? Maybe it is just a part of the instant gratification problem...just post your question, get an answer and get back to something else.
I have learned a lot from many individuals on this forum, people I have never met and will never meet. You do them a disservice if you just ignore what they have already answered.
If my post is viewed as mean, so be it.
Larry
This is perfect; I was looking for a good example of Experience Bias and mentoring for my school work. Thanks.

https://www.mindtheproduct.com/2016/...oduct-manager/
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Old 08-31-2017, 10:26 AM   #34
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This source is good for OJT & DIY.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf 50-amp Service.pdf (45.8 KB, 19 views)
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Old 08-31-2017, 10:32 AM   #35
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Oops, just noticed the url want on the document.

http://www.myrv.us/electric/
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Old 08-31-2017, 11:34 AM   #36
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Re: In phase or out of phase
Power to your house is two hot wires exactly 180 degrees out of phase. 60 cycle power rises to a +ve peak then reverses to a -ve dip. Peak and dip are more than 110/120V but average voltage is 110/120 (or so) over the complete cycle .
You get 110/120 V nominal between hot and neutral (and ground) on each side of the 220 circuit, but each side rises to max +ve and dips to max -ve out of phase(or step) with the other. So if you hook up to both hot wires you get +ve 110 on one side and -ve 110 on the other..total 220.
Re the welder outlet...be sure it isn't a 3 phase ...unlikely since you say the plug configuration is the same as your trailer cord. I would be testing the voltage across each supply slot first. Looking for 110 hot to neutral and 220 across both hot lines plus 110 to ground each side
JCW
THIS is the best explanation of voltage/phasing that I have seen so far; and it makes more sense. Thanx.
-The 110V. , I believe is about 74% P.E.P., but I forget what it's called.
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Old 08-31-2017, 09:55 PM   #37
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It depends. If I could put a drawing in here it would make more senseAttachment 293557

So I'll use the traditional back of the envelope design explanation

This is a schematic diagram of the standard utility single-phase "pole-pig" transformer found on above ground utility poles all over the US.

The top coil is connected from the 1.2 K volt line on top of the pole, and ground.

The output windings are phased as the dots indicate. From either hot to neutral, you see 110 volts. Because of the indicated phasing, from hot to hot you get 220 volts. Engineering convention is to call these two load windings "in phase" because from left to right the voltages in the coils add. This layout also minimizes neutral current if the 110 volt loads are evenly distributed on each hot lead as someone else has mentioned.

Yeah, I hear you, bordering on TMI...but heck, I've been engineering and teaching most of my adult life
Looking at your schematic, I can see where you would say that the two 'hots' are in phase. However............
Your drawing also confirms my assertion that both 'hots' would read Zero on the meter.
Take a look at "JCWDCW"s answer to read a more realistic explanation.
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Old 08-31-2017, 10:20 PM   #38
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Basic RV Electrical Question, I think

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Originally Posted by MelGoddard View Post
Looking at your schematic, I can see where you would say that the two 'hots' are in phase. However............

Your drawing also confirms my assertion that both 'hots' would read Zero on the meter.

Take a look at "JCWDCW"s answer to read a more realistic explanation.


The dots indicate the ends of the windings that go positive at the same time. From JCWDCW's answer, he's describing the same thing. From the drawing, the left end hot is going negative at the same time the right end hot goes positive.

Disregarding the phasing convention, what this circuit is physically is a transformer with a center-tapped load winding. By calling the center of the two windings "neutral" we get 110 volts from neutral to either hot, and 220 from hot to hot.

The phasing part is just electrical convention... the bottom line is the voltages.

This setup also illustrates why a floating neutral, i.e. A neutral disconnected from the transformer is do dangerous. If it's floating, there is no way to guarantee that the hot to neutral voltage will be fixed. It now depends on the current drawn through the loads. And if it is not balanced, one side will see excess voltage, and that can burn stuff out..,

This is a very simple version of a real utility power distribution system. Add in the real world 3 phase power distribution system and it gets really weird. Then balancing the system gets real hard, and power factor rears its ugly head.

When I went to college on the subject, it took about a year just to understand the math...and it still makes my head hurt to this day. And yes, before you ask, we did all that with a slide rule, that I still have, Justin case the calculator batteries die...
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Old 09-01-2017, 10:07 AM   #39
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Looking at your schematic, I can see where you would say that the two 'hots' are in phase. However............
Your drawing also confirms my assertion that both 'hots' would read Zero on the meter.
Take a look at "JCWDCW"s answer to read a more realistic explanation.
Hi

The schematic is correct. It shows a proper transformer delivering two hot lines 180 degrees out of phase.

Bob
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Old 09-01-2017, 10:37 AM   #40
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Jeez Isbrodsky, It shouldn't be that big of deal.
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