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09-21-2018, 09:01 AM
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#1
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Rivet Master
2018 16' Sport
Charlotte
, Vermont
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 596
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Backup Charging when Cloudy
I am trying, really, to understand this stuff. I have read and re-read the OM, threads on this forum, the individual pamphlets, the Newbie's Guide, numerous websites and blogs and so forth.
So, I have one OEM solar panel 80w, one Lifeline AGM GPL-24T battery, 3-stage converter/charger, Sunexplorer II, Seelevel II, OEM Power Center (WF-8900 Series).
There are times when it's cloudy and my battery gets low and I'm wondering if I should bring Bramble up to the garage and plug into my normal outlet to get her fully charged.
I do have a 3-stage converter/charger (are those terms used interchangeably?) so I guess I don't have to worry about overcharging. Is that correct? Can I just leave her plugged indefinitely?
I have a Sunexplorer II display as well as a Seelevel II Tank monitor. From reading here, I gather that neither are very accurate. How inaccurate are they? Should I get some other kind of monitoring system so I know my battery situation?
And what are recommendations for upgrading/extending my system as I tend to boondock, often in the woods.
Another battery? More solar panels? Two golf cart batteries? Different charger/converter? More accurate monitor display? (I already know about generators)
Thanks,
Kim
__________________
Don't let the sound of your own wheels drive you crazy...
Kim
Charlotte, VT
2010 F-150, 5.4l, V8, 3.55; Bramble: 2018 Bambi Sport 16
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09-21-2018, 09:17 AM
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#2
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Rivet Master
2018 27' Globetrotter
Apollo Beach
, Florida
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,401
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There are times when it's cloudy and my battery gets low and I'm wondering if I should bring Bramble up to the garage and plug into my normal outlet to get her fully charged. Depends how discharged the battery gets and for how long. But your 80W panel should be able to maintain your battery while stored outside, even over several cloudy days. If not, you've got either something turned on using battery or a very weak battery.
I do have a 3-stage converter/charger (are those terms used interchangeably?) so I guess I don't have to worry about overcharging. Is that correct? Can I just leave her plugged indefinitely? YES, if it is a true 3-stage converter. I believe 2018's are the first year with true 3-stage. When sitting plugged into shore power for several days in storage, when the battery is fully charged and not being used, do you see 13.2 Volts on the Sealevel? If you do, then you can safely leave your Airstream plugged in all the time. If you always see 13.6 Volts, you do not have a true 3-stage converter and should upgrade the charger with a PD4655 or similar.
I have a Sunexplorer II display as well as a Seelevel II Tank monitor. From reading here, I gather that neither are very accurate. How inaccurate are they?
The voltage reading on my Seelevel is very accurate, my tank levels - not so much. But voltage readings need to be taken from a resting battery, which then makes the number you see on the Seelevel very inaccurate for determining state of charge while boondocking.
Should I get some other kind of monitoring system so I know my battery situation? NO, you don't need another monitoring system. Other monitoring systems really aren't that accurate anyway. https://marinehowto.com/programming-a-battery-monitor/
And what are recommendations for upgrading/extending my system as I tend to boondock, often in the woods.
Another battery? YES More solar panels? Yes Two golf cart batteries? Your battery is equivalent to a golf cart battery. Different charger/converter? NO, if yours is a true 3-stage converter. More accurate monitor display? NO
These are my opinions based on the information you gave. Others will disagree and I could change my opinion with further information about how you boondock and the amount of energy you use while boondocking.
__________________
2021 Northern-Lite 10-2 & F350 DRW PSD, 600W Solar/Victron/600A BattleBorn
146 nights 31,000 miles (first 10 months!)
Sold: 2018 GT27Q, 74 nights 12,777 miles
Sold: 2017 FC25FB, 316 nights 40,150 miles
Sold: 2013 Casita SD17 89 nights 16,200 miles
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09-21-2018, 10:20 AM
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#3
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Rivet Master
2018 16' Sport
Charlotte
, Vermont
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 596
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Thank you AirMiles. That is so helpful! I am starting from ZERO knowledge about batteries, electricity, and all of the other systems in the AS! People like you have been so wonderful about sharing what they've learned. Happy trails! Kim
__________________
Don't let the sound of your own wheels drive you crazy...
Kim
Charlotte, VT
2010 F-150, 5.4l, V8, 3.55; Bramble: 2018 Bambi Sport 16
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09-21-2018, 10:33 AM
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#4
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Rivet Master
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Sag Harbor
, New York
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 17,523
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As one tool in a plan for charging redundancy . . .
You might consider a small generator/inverter like our Yamaha 1000, fired by the onboard AS propane via the quick-connect at the front. Plenty of juice to charge the batteries and run the fridge. Easy to carry in the tow vehicle with no risk of gas. Very quiet! Also easy to locate behind the trailer/tow vehicle hidden on the campsite, using an extension for the propane hose.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Yama...com&gws_rd=ssl
We also got an adaptor to run the Yamaha 1k off a standard BBQ 20-pound tank, for emergency back up at home during hurricanes and winter storms. Very easy to get these tanks almost everywhere.
https://www.motorsnorkel.com/ef1000i...generator.html
A very handy tool to have in the toolbox!
Peter
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09-21-2018, 11:58 AM
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#5
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"Cloudsplitter"
2003 25' Classic
Houstatlantavegas
, Malebolgia
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 19,977
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Welcome Aboard!! 👍
snip......"And what are recommendations for upgrading/extending my system as I tend to boondock, often in the woods."
What we depend on when needed...👍
Honda 2000i dual fuel conversion...11yrs SFSG.
Bob
🇺🇸
__________________
"You don't know where you've been until you leave, enjoy life" RLC
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09-21-2018, 02:47 PM
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#6
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Rivet Master
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Sag Harbor
, New York
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 17,523
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PS Kim,
Not sure if I put this Battery School link in one of your threads already, but it is a great source of general info:
http://www.batteriesnorthwest.com/ba...hool.cfm?TID=4
Peter
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09-22-2018, 09:50 PM
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#7
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Rivet Master
Commercial Member
New Borockton
, Alabama
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,593
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farafield
I am trying, really, to understand this stuff. I have read and re-read the OM, threads on this forum, the individual pamphlets, the Newbie's Guide, numerous websites and blogs and so forth.
So, I have one OEM solar panel 80w, one Lifeline AGM GPL-24T battery, 3-stage converter/charger, Sunexplorer II, Seelevel II, OEM Power Center (WF-8900 Series).
There are times when it's cloudy and my battery gets low and I'm wondering if I should bring Bramble up to the garage and plug into my normal outlet to get her fully charged.
I do have a 3-stage converter/charger (are those terms used interchangeably?) so I guess I don't have to worry about overcharging. Is that correct? Can I just leave her plugged indefinitely?
I have a Sunexplorer II display as well as a Seelevel II Tank monitor. From reading here, I gather that neither are very accurate. How inaccurate are they? Should I get some other kind of monitoring system so I know my battery situation?
And what are recommendations for upgrading/extending my system as I tend to boondock, often in the woods.
Another battery? More solar panels? Two golf cart batteries? Different charger/converter? More accurate monitor display? (I already know about generators)
Thanks,
Kim
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The biggest issue you are going to encounter is getting that "3 stage charger" to go into the 3 stages. We have to trick them on the test set and even then sometimes they don't go through the different modes. Most have upgraded to the 4 stage units, either PD or Boondocker and the results are quite different. Solar is great when the sun is shinning.
__________________
Randy...Converters, Inverters, Trimetric, Surge Protectors, Zamp, Smartplug, AGM Batts
888-828-1893
Bestconverter.com
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09-23-2018, 05:07 AM
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#8
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Rivet Master
2018 16' Sport
Charlotte
, Vermont
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 596
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 68 Overlander
The biggest issue you are going to encounter is getting that "3 stage charger" to go into the 3 stages. We have to trick them on the test set and even then sometimes they don't go through the different modes. Most have upgraded to the 4 stage units, either PD or Boondocker and the results are quite different. Solar is great when the sun is shinning.
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Hi Randy,
Thank you for your response. So it sounds like just when I thought I had a handle on something/anything, you've gone and wrecked it! Haha
So, if the charger doesn't go through the stages, what is it doing, or not doing, that it should or shouldn't be doing? In other words, what do I need to worry about now? Is it not going to float mode so my batteries might get overcharged?
And how did you trick it on the test set?
And by "most" upgrading to 4 stage, do you mean "most" solar panel companies?
Thank you,
Kim
__________________
Don't let the sound of your own wheels drive you crazy...
Kim
Charlotte, VT
2010 F-150, 5.4l, V8, 3.55; Bramble: 2018 Bambi Sport 16
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09-23-2018, 10:40 PM
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#9
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Rivet Master
Commercial Member
New Borockton
, Alabama
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,593
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farafield
Hi Randy,
Thank you for your response. So it sounds like just when I thought I had a handle on something/anything, you've gone and wrecked it! Haha
So, if the charger doesn't go through the stages, what is it doing, or not doing, that it should or shouldn't be doing? In other words, what do I need to worry about now? Is it not going to float mode so my batteries might get overcharged?
And how did you trick it on the test set?
And by "most" upgrading to 4 stage, do you mean "most" solar panel companies?
Thank you,
Kim
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Hi Kim,
Certainly didn't mean to wreck anything
The only way to really know what mode it's in is to have a voltage monitor connected full time. The dummy light trees in most RVs don't help much.
We have for years tried to get them to explain what triggers the boost mode and the answer is always that it just does it but you don't always see it.
11.9 had been floated out there, but it doesn't happen.
That has not set well with our customers that I have to answer too or us because the current delivery doesn't change.
What we do to "trick" the WFCO into boost is to use a pair of 6 volt deep cycle AGM or other flooded deep cycle batteries connected to the converter as well as an inverter (1500 watt) and load it up enough to draw the battery bank down below 11.5 volts. That is what it usually takes. When the load is removed, it will sometimes enter the boost mode, sometimes it will not. We have a Trimetric battery monitor with 500 amy shut connected to the test set to watch everything real time.
When we slowly discharge the bank to the same OCV (Open circuit voltage) it will rarely enter bulk/boost but sometimes it does.
Ironically this has never been an Airstream issue because until 2018, Airstream used Parallax. We had other conversations about overcharging for different reasons during the Parallax era.
__________________
Randy...Converters, Inverters, Trimetric, Surge Protectors, Zamp, Smartplug, AGM Batts
888-828-1893
Bestconverter.com
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09-24-2018, 03:45 AM
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#10
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Rivet Master
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Sag Harbor
, New York
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 17,523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farafield
Thank you AirMiles. That is so helpful! I am starting from ZERO knowledge about batteries, electricity, and all of the other systems in the AS! People like you have been so wonderful about sharing what they've learned. Happy trails! Kim
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Kim, could you please clarify how you store your AS, and whether you are able to turn shore power on and off when you want? For instance, maybe the trailer is stored at home or at a nearby location with shore power? Sorry if you have posted this before.
All of this talk about upgrading things to protect the batteries [plural?] is not all that relevant if you can turn shore power on and off at will IMO.
Both our 25' AS in the 90's, and the current FC20, have been stored at handy locations, and our OEM standard old flooded cell batteries lasted for many years by monitoring charging, battery voltage, and water levels.
Keep It Simple, Stu
If that works for you.
[free poetry too!]
Thanks,
Peter
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09-25-2018, 05:43 AM
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#11
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Rivet Master
2018 16' Sport
Charlotte
, Vermont
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 596
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OTRA15
Kim, could you please clarify how you store your AS, and whether you are able to turn shore power on and off when you want? For instance, maybe the trailer is stored at home or at a nearby location with shore power? Sorry if you have posted this before.
All of this talk about upgrading things to protect the batteries [plural?] is not all that relevant if you can turn shore power on and off at will IMO.
Both our 25' AS in the 90's, and the current FC20, have been stored at handy locations, and our OEM standard old flooded cell batteries lasted for many years by monitoring charging, battery voltage, and water levels.
Keep It Simple, Stu
If that works for you.
[free poetry too!]
Thanks,
Peter
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Hey Peter,
Yes, as I said in my OP, I can bring her up to the house and plug her into the 110 outlet--when we're not out and about.
My question about that was can I just leave her plugged in and not worry about overcharging since I have the three stage?
Then, part II was how reliable is the monitor as far as telling me what the charge level is in my battery and should I invest in something more reliable" Since I am mostly boon docking it seems it would be important to know precisely how much juice I have.
Then part III is what are the best ways to add amp hours, which I think I have a pretty good handle on (add battery, add panels, generator)
Thanks! (and thanks for the free poetry--but who is Stu???!)
Kim
Sometimes I don't know,
What I don't know,
So I'm just gonna take it slow.
__________________
Don't let the sound of your own wheels drive you crazy...
Kim
Charlotte, VT
2010 F-150, 5.4l, V8, 3.55; Bramble: 2018 Bambi Sport 16
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09-25-2018, 07:49 AM
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#12
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4 Rivet Member
Chelsea
, Maine
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farafield
Then part III is what are the best ways to add amp hours, which I think I have a pretty good handle on (add battery, add panels, generator)
Kim
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The only way to add amp hours is more/bigger batteries. Adding more solar recharges them faster when the sun is shining, but does not add amp hour capacity.
Your three solutions are all good. More battery capacity (amp hours) will let you boondock longer, all other things being equal.
More solar will recharge your batteries faster, but won’t help much on a cloudy day.
Batteries and/or solar won’t run your AC given Bramble’s limited roof area.
Adding a generator essentially gives you unlimited boondocking time, limited only by “generators allowed” hours and your fuel supply. It will also run your AC if needed. It’s also handy to have in the event of a power outage to keep your fridge cold.
Our Honda 2000 ran the fridge, some fans, and the TV for four days after Irma knocked out our power. At night we slept in the Airstream with the AC on and the house fridge still plugged in. It saved us from losing a fridge full of food and provided comfort the whole time.
I’ve taken all three paths, but I started with the generator. If I were to pick only one, it would be the generator.
__________________
2023 Entegra Odyssey 26M
2017 FC 27FB
2017 F250 Lariat Crew Cab 6.2L
Equal-I-Zer 10K/1000
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09-25-2018, 08:04 AM
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#13
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Rivet Master
2018 16' Sport
Charlotte
, Vermont
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 596
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMynes
Our Honda 2000 ran the fridge, some fans, and the TV for four days after Irma knocked out our power. At night we slept in the Airstream with the AC on and the house fridge still plugged in. It saved us from losing a fridge full of food and provided comfort the whole time.
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Another good reason to have an AS!!!
Thank you for your help JMynes! I greatly appreciate!
Kim
__________________
Don't let the sound of your own wheels drive you crazy...
Kim
Charlotte, VT
2010 F-150, 5.4l, V8, 3.55; Bramble: 2018 Bambi Sport 16
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09-25-2018, 11:48 AM
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#14
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ASIS17
2017 30' International
Myerstown
, Pennsylvania
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 19
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How low can you safely take a 12v AGM Battery? Is an AGM Battery better to have than a lead acid battery?
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09-25-2018, 12:16 PM
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#15
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Rivet Master
2017 28' Flying Cloud
2014 25' FB Flying Cloud
2008 25' Safari FB SE
Georgetown (winter)Thayne (summer)
, Texas & Wyoming
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,602
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASIS17
How low can you safely take a 12v AGM Battery? Is an AGM Battery better to have than a lead acid battery?
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my 2 cents...worth every penny;
Every time you deplete the 12V below 50%, you are taking away from it's overall life I believe, but others may dissagree. Good to have a converter with 4 stage capability, as mentioned, but not totally necessary if your watching things. A monitor or separate trickle charger can also help you out if your not into changing out your converter.
AGM's require less maintenance than wet cell batteries, but that doesn't necessarily mean they will last longer, in fact some "experts" agree they may not last as long as a properly maintained wet cell. Best option if money is not an issue would be Lithium.
From Kim's earlier question, yes, I would consider getting a second battery at a minimum, and also look at your needs in determining which type to get. We just switched out to 2 6V Trojan Golf Cart batteries couple months back and they are keeping up very well with our use, compared with my 2 12V Interstates that came with the AS. Many opinions on all this, if you want to spend time reading the posts.
And then if your boondocking, a small generator is a great addition, assuming your not wanting to run AC also...then they get bigger...again, this topic is well covered. Good luck!
__________________
Empty Nesters; Gypsies on the road! 2017 28' Twin Flying Cloud
2017 F250 King Ranch, 4X4, 6.7L, Blue-Ox WDH
Summer-Star Valley Ranch RV Resort (Thayne, WY); Winter-Sun City (Georgetown,TX)
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09-25-2018, 12:27 PM
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#16
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Rivet Master
2018 27' Globetrotter
Apollo Beach
, Florida
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASIS17
How low can you safely take a 12v AGM Battery? Is an AGM Battery better to have than a lead acid battery?
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An AGM battery is a lead acid battery. They are very similar. AGMs are just sealed versus a Wet Cell battery. An AGM can be installed inside an Airstream, at any angle - except upside down, and you never add water to it.
Usable Amp Hours are similar. Most will say limit draw downs to 50% of Amp Hours. I will draw down my Wet Cells as far as 80% and will replace them sooner. The penalty for an 80% draw down is an increase in cost per usable amp hour of 20%.
A Lithium battery has a few more benefits, and a few more complications. It weighs less and is advertised to have an 80% draw down potential with a 10 year warrantied life at a cost of about 10 times the cost of a Wet Cell battery.
Based on the above simple benefits/costs, I chose to put a pair of 6V golf cart batteries on the tongue of my Airstream at a cost of $200 with a one year replacement guarantee. I could replace my wet cells every year for ten years for the same price as a pair of the lithiums with a 10 year warranty.
The only way I could justify an AGM or Lithium battery is if I wanted a larger battery bank (more Amp Hours) installed inside my Airstream. Other than for this reason, I just see added cost and complication versus a pair of wet cell batteries on the tongue.
Here is a good article with more information about battery types, draw downs, expected lives, benefits and disadvantages . . . https://www.solar-electric.com/deep-...ttery-faq.html
My $0.02 worth the price you paid for it . . . others will add their opinions.
__________________
2021 Northern-Lite 10-2 & F350 DRW PSD, 600W Solar/Victron/600A BattleBorn
146 nights 31,000 miles (first 10 months!)
Sold: 2018 GT27Q, 74 nights 12,777 miles
Sold: 2017 FC25FB, 316 nights 40,150 miles
Sold: 2013 Casita SD17 89 nights 16,200 miles
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09-25-2018, 12:34 PM
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#17
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"Cloudsplitter"
2003 25' Classic
Houstatlantavegas
, Malebolgia
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 19,977
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Yes AGM's are better...👍
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASIS17
How low can you safely take a 12v AGM Battery? Is an AGM Battery better to have than a lead acid battery?
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Our 2 Lifelines 11yrs old😂, were kept above 12.4, (not more than 6 times below 12). Just starting to show their age, replaced this year with 2 100ah Liths.
Bob
🇺🇸
__________________
"You don't know where you've been until you leave, enjoy life" RLC
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09-25-2018, 02:33 PM
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#18
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Rivet Master
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Sag Harbor
, New York
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 17,523
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Isn't one limitation of lithium batteries that you cannot charge them, if they are below 32 degrees Farenheit?
A fully charged lead acid battery can get pretty cold and still be charged IMO.
Just a dumb layman asking . . .
FWIW
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09-25-2018, 02:46 PM
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#19
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Rivet Master
2014 20' Flying Cloud
Sag Harbor
, New York
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 17,523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farafield
. . .
. . . as I said in my OP . . .
. . .
. . . who is Stu???! . . .
. . .
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Sorry Kim, I missed the details in your OP. Thanks for going into detail.
Stu is short for stupid, from the old KISS phrase, but the term was not directed at you!
I pretty much missed the mark with my earlier reply.
Peter
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09-25-2018, 03:31 PM
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#20
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Half a Rivet Short
2017 30' Classic
2022 Interstate 24X
Carlisle
, Pennsylvania
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 15,675
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Hi
By far the easiest solution to all this is to plug the trailer into a dirt cheap 7 day timer. Set it up to power the trailer for a few hours once a week. You will not "damage" anything doing that. It's pretty much guaranteed to keep the batteries in ok shape regardless of the amount of sun / shade / snow / zombies ...
There is no need to go crazy on the timer. A clunky old mechanical unit will do just fine. A fancy LCD based super duper one will look a bit more cool.
https://www.amazon.com/Century-Heavy...ay+timer&psc=1
Seems to be a "best seller" on Amazon. I've never used that exact one. There are mechanical ones for < 1/2 the price as add on items if the $13 is outside the acceptable price range.
Bob
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