Affordable Approachable Lithium

[The Naker]

ps - I removed the surge protector and now the Yeti can power the converter. No luck with the convection microwave though. Even if I set it to 10% microwave power (obviously no convection) it still doesn't work (with converter and all other loads turned off). The microwave lights come on but as soon as I hit start it resets the display and doesn't even try to run.

[GOUSC]

I went out to check the operation of my Yeti GZ 1000 this morning. I have the propane oven and Microwave in the pantry compartment (I do not have the convection microwave). Converter turned off / GZ 1000 on. I was able to use the microwave at 50% power and 100% power to heat up water in a coffee cup. I did each one at 30 seconds. No issue at either setting.

I'm guessing the microwave included in the convection combo must draw more power than the stand alone microwave? Maybe someone else can chime in that has the GZ1000 with the convection microwave oven.

[pteck]

Originally Posted by The Naker

ps - I removed the surge protector and now the Yeti can power the converter. No luck with the convection microwave though. Even if I set it to 10% microwave power (obviously no convection) it still doesn't work (with converter and all other loads turned off). The microwave lights come on but as soon as I hit start it resets the display and doesn't even try to run.

Sorry to hear of the challenges. The behavior your describing is a bit curious?

The Goal Zero has an inverter surge ability to 3000W for 30 seconds. At a minimum, the microwave should be able to do that. Yet I'm not sure load is the issue here.


Looking at the readout of the GoalZero, what is the power draw with everything at rest? What is the power draw when the microwave is turned on?

I suspect something else is going on?

[coasttocoast]

I have a Yeti 3000 strapped to the floor behind the driver's seat. I use the Yeto to run my fridge and freezer. It works. If you search my posts, you will see more detailed comments and some pictures.

[The Naker]

Originally Posted by pteck

Sorry to hear of the challenges. The behavior your describing is a bit curious?

The Goal Zero has an inverter surge ability to 3000W for 30 seconds. At a minimum, the microwave should be able to do that. Yet I'm not sure load is the issue here.


Looking at the readout of the GoalZero, what is the power draw with everything at rest? What is the power draw when the microwave is turned on?

I suspect something else is going on?

The GZ reads around .9 amps to 1.2 amps with everything at rest. I can't read the power draw when I turn on the microwave as it just resets without registering on the display.

The microwave is rated at 1500 watts input power requirement so should work. When I run it plugged into shore power I tried it on lower power settings and it seems like it still uses full power but just for a shorter interval than the time I set.

This is beyond my knowledge but could grounding be an issue? The manual states many times that the outlet must be plugged into an outlet that has a proper grounding wire. Obviously the Yeti doesn't have this.

[The Naker]

Originally Posted by GOUSC

I went out to check the operation of my Yeti GZ 1000 this morning. I have the propane oven and Microwave in the pantry compartment (I do not have the convection microwave). Converter turned off / GZ 1000 on. I was able to use the microwave at 50% power and 100% power to heat up water in a coffee cup. I did each one at 30 seconds. No issue at either setting.

I'm guessing the microwave included in the convection combo must draw more power than the stand alone microwave? Maybe someone else can chime in that has the GZ1000 with the convection microwave oven.

I used to have a Tommy Bahama 27fb and that microwave used significantly less power. My Honda generator didn't blink with it. On the new convection microwave in the Classic my generator kicks up to max power when I run the microwave.

[GOUSC]

I read on a different Goal Zero, (GZ), post of someone using their inverter in the RV to charge their GZ while driving. I believe they had an Interstate and a GZ 3000. The Goal Zero 12V charger for car use has been out of stock for a while. It finally got back in stock at REI and I ordered it; however, the in-store pick will be after I have left for an extended trip.

My Globetrotter has 2 AGM batteries / 1000 Watt inverter / 160W Factory solar. If I have sunny days while travelling, would this set up work to charge the GZ 1000 some while driving without depleting the batteries? The refrigerator would be on propane while in transit. I usually drive for 6-8 hours. I was hoping this may work as an option until I am able to use the car charger.

[The Naker]

Originally Posted by GOUSC

I read on a different Goal Zero, (GZ), post of someone using their inverter in the RV to charge their GZ while driving. I believe they had an Interstate and a GZ 3000. The Goal Zero 12V charger for car use has been out of stock for a while. It finally got back in stock at REI and I ordered it; however, the in-store pick will be after I have left for an extended trip.

My Globetrotter has 2 AGM batteries / 1000 Watt inverter / 160W Factory solar. If I have sunny days while travelling, would this set up work to charge the GZ 1000 some while driving without depleting the batteries? The refrigerator would be on propane while in transit. I usually drive for 6-8 hours. I was hoping this may work as an option until I am able to use the car charger.

I have the car charger and it works really well. Actually it might work too well. I have it plugged into my Airstream 12v and I have 280W of solar with 2AGM batteries. The GZ charges really well on with the 12v BUT it takes all of the solar power so that by the end of the day my AGMs aren't charged.

I move the GZ 1000 into my tow vehicle and it charges really fast with a combination of the car charger and plugged into a 1000W inverter.

[GOUSC]

The Naker,

I had one other thought re: your situation. I am assuming you are still using some other portable surge protector other than the PD hard wired one. I previously used a Honda EU2000 generator that I am replacing with the Goal Zero to eliminate gas cans, noise, etc. With the Honda, some surge protectors won’t allow electricity to flow to the RV if the generator does not have a bonded neutral (or something to that effect). To get around this you either a) don’t use a surge protector or, b) purchase a bonding plug to put in one the generator outlets. I have never heard of a power surge issues with the Honda so I just didn’t use a surge protector.

I keep thinking of the GZ 1000 as a lithium battery but it really is a generator, it just uses the lithium battery as a power source vs gasoline or propane. If you are still using a surge protector, it may no be allowing power to the RV since there is no bonded neutral. I’m assuming the GZ does not have this since there is no 3rd prong as a ground on the electric input. Anyway, just a thought to throw out there as I don’t use a surge protector with my GZ1000. If you do have a surge protector, try the GZ1000 without it.

Thanks for the idea of an inverter in the auto until my car charger comes in. I have a spare 300W inverter that will plug into a port in my TV. I will call GZ and see if this can work as a power source. I know it’s not much output but it is something.

[OTRA15]

Originally Posted by GOUSC

. . .
I keep thinking of the GZ 1000 as a lithium battery but it really is a generator, it just uses the lithium battery as a power source vs gasoline or propane.
. . .

This may confuse some folks IMO.

A real generator fired by gas or propane will produce more electrical power, as long as you keep putting fuel into it.

Devices like the Goal Zero are basically big lithium batteries, which have a finite amount of electrical energy to share. They do not "generate" new electricity unless you plug them in and re-charge them somehow.

Why they are sometimes marketed as "generators" is beyond me . . .

Peter

FYI/FWIW

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by OTRA15

This may confuse some folks IMO.

A real generator fired by gas or propane will produce more electrical power, as long as you keep putting fuel into it.

Devices like the Goal Zero are basically big lithium batteries, which have a finite amount of electrical energy to share. They do not "generate" new electricity unless you plug them in and re-charge them somehow.

Why they are sometimes marketed as "generators" is beyond me . . .

Peter

FYI/FWIW

That's a great point, Peter...that comment also had me re-thinking..."say whaaaattt??" I was looking at the GZ family this weekend in Missoula AS dealer, and REI...(pricy and heavy is what my wife said) the 12v Li battery replacment now seems maybe a better solution?? It is lighter in weight for sure, and although you would need 2 of them at around $1,000 each; seems to be a better over all solution then lugging the heavier GZ 1000-1400 models around and charging them?? Plus, if you do make the conversion, have some solar also, what is the difference vs the heavier portable models of 12V Li's?? Thoughts anyone?/ (most of us already have a generator anyhow right?) (full circle here yet?)

[pteck]

Originally Posted by The Naker

The GZ reads around .9 amps to 1.2 amps with everything at rest. I can't read the power draw when I turn on the microwave as it just resets without registering on the display.

The microwave is rated at 1500 watts input power requirement so should work. When I run it plugged into shore power I tried it on lower power settings and it seems like it still uses full power but just for a shorter interval than the time I set.

This is beyond my knowledge but could grounding be an issue? The manual states many times that the outlet must be plugged into an outlet that has a proper grounding wire. Obviously the Yeti doesn't have this.

This reads to me like your Goal Zero has an issue with the inverter section. No residential microwave should be able to pull over 3000W even in a surge scenario, enough to immediately shut the GZ down. I would try some other large load on it, like a full size hair dryer or heater to see if the GZ is capable of supporting that load. It should easily.

On the other side, you could try your microwave with a "cheater plug". Older homes don't have outlets with grounds, and this allows one to use devices without the ground actually tied in.

[pteck]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

That's a great point, Peter...that comment also had me re-thinking..."say whaaaattt??" I was looking at the GZ family this weekend in Missoula AS dealer, and REI...(pricy and heavy is what my wife said) the 12v Li battery replacment now seems maybe a better solution?? It is lighter in weight for sure, and although you would need 2 of them at around $1,000 each; seems to be a better over all solution then lugging the heavier GZ 1000-1400 models around and charging them?? Plus, if you do make the conversion, have some solar also, what is the difference vs the heavier portable models of 12V Li's?? Thoughts anyone?/ (most of us already have a generator anyhow right?) (full circle here yet?)

Before this thread goes too off course, I would encourage you to read my original post. And perhaps this post to answer your question.

There's many ways to use a GZ, yet that's not what this thread is focused on.

The application here uses the GZ to provide value above and beyond what two battle born batteries could provide. In a manner that is cheaper overall. And allows for redundancies, and many flexible ways to use that power.

[pteck]

Originally Posted by The Naker

I have the car charger and it works really well. Actually it might work too well. I have it plugged into my Airstream 12v and I have 280W of solar with 2AGM batteries. The GZ charges really well on with the 12v BUT it takes all of the solar power so that by the end of the day my AGMs aren't charged.

I move the GZ 1000 into my tow vehicle and it charges really fast with a combination of the car charger and plugged into a 1000W inverter.

Yes, the GZ is great at prioritizing itself.

When doing this upgrade, it's important that the solar is sized accordingly to support the installed battery capacity including the GZ. Otherwise, there will always be a shortfall in charging which is what you're seeing. One could just disconnect the GZ car charger if the goal is to prioritize the house batteries.

With ~350Ah of usable installed battery capacity between my 2x 6V 215Ah house batts and 100Ah GZ accessory battery, I've installed 400W worth of solar to keep them topped off. I also have another 100W of portable solar panel to leverage as needed.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by pteck

Before this thread goes too off course, I would encourage you to read my original post. And perhaps this post to answer your question.

There's many ways to use a GZ, yet that's not what this thread is focused on.

The application here uses the GZ to provide value above and beyond what two battle born batteries could provide. In a manner that is cheaper overall. And allows for redundancies, and many flexible ways to use that power.

Thanks again! I did re-read your post...must have missed it somehow, but looking at the dates, I was on the road.... I did think the GZ was pretty heavy, and still wondering about an easy way to wire into the AS. The storage compartments in our 28' look like yours, I assume, but I have a few more under the twin beds also the L couch...this may be a great option after all, and as you mention, does not tie up the loads from the house T105's while still providing E for coffee, MW, etc.....

[Dave-n-Janet]

I've been using my GZ1000 several days on current trip. I've been able to keep it and 2x6v GC batteries charged with 400 watts roof solar. I got the GZ 12v charger and use the Trimetic solar controller. When the GZ had gotten down to 40% I used the 10amp setting on the charger (just wired a 12v cigarette type socket to the 12v bus) the charger got very hot. Almost too hot to handle. This was after roughly 2 hours use. Just something to be aware of. No problems at 5amp setting.
Dave

[OTRA15]

Thanks Dave,

What size wire [AWG and length of run] did you use for the socket, and is that socket rated for 10 amps?

Could you please post a link for the GZ charger you are using? Some of their car chargers are not rated for use with the lithium products IMO.

This one? https://www.goalzero.com/shop/yeti-a...harging-cable/

Note Specs etc. tabs at the bottom, re: wire gauge and other devices charging on same line.

Thanks,

Peter

[Milo1952]

It may appear to be cost effective, however, at 500 life cycles at 80%,
It,s really quite expensive.
The GZ 3000 costs $3000. For 500 cycles x 4 ( to equal 2000 cycles) that,s $12000.
Not an inexpensive way to go.

[pteck]

Originally Posted by Milo1952

It may appear to be cost effective, however, at 500 life cycles at 80%,
It,s really quite expensive.
The GZ 3000 costs $3000. For 500 cycles x 4 ( to equal 2000 cycles) that,s $12000.
Not an inexpensive way to go.

That's taking a very negative and single sided worse case scenario perspective on the issue.

Reality is not that. Not even close.

My GZ 1000 was $800. I expect easily over 2000 cycles from this with the way I use my trailer - which is not even close to full cycling in a given day. With 300Ah on tap combined with house battery and the GZ, I only use about 10-20% of the capacity on the GZ on any given day. My GZ will be 10 years old and technology will be well superseded by the time I replace it.

Let me frame this for you more:
$2k invested for ~300Ah battery inclusive of 400W solar. Able to do just about what many full lithium $10k++ systems can do (including more interesting uses). Nothing is going to touch the value you can get with this type of setup.

Tronadora answered it earlier in the thread too - http://www.airforums.com/forums/f37/...ml#post2265868

[CarterKraft]

Originally Posted by pteck

That's taking a very negative and single sided worse case scenario perspective on the issue.

Reality is not that. Not even close.

My GZ 1000 was $800. I expect easily over 2000 cycles from this with the way I use my trailer - which is not even close to full cycling in a given day. With 300Ah on tap combined with house battery and the GZ, I only use about 10-20% of the capacity on the GZ on any given day. My GZ will be 10 years old and technology will be well superseded by the time I replace it.

Let me frame this for you more:
$2k invested for ~300Ah battery inclusive of 400W solar. Able to do just about what many full lithium $10k++ systems can do (including more interesting uses). Nothing is going to touch the value you can get with this type of setup.

Tronadora answered it earlier in the thread too - http://www.airforums.com/forums/f37/...ml#post2265868

I think there might be some confirmation bias here though.
1 year warranty.
The GZ 1000 is 100 Ah with a 500 cycle rating.
The inverter is rated at 1500/3000

Without the convenience of the package what makes it so valuable?
Not trying to poo poo it I am really suprised they dont use Lifepo4 chemistry. And oddly the estimated cycle life is in line with Lithium Manganese Oxide (LiMn2O4) — LMO not LMC as is listed in the specs. It's likely a sales marketing decision to de-rate the cycle expectancy to decrease expectations. With a proper BMS and usual temp range I cann't see what was reduce the cycles so much?

Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide: LiNiMnCoO2. cathode, graphite anode
Short form: NMC (NCM, CMN, CNM, MNC, MCN similar with different metal combinations) Since 2008
Voltages 3.60V, 3.70V nominal; typical operating range 3.0–4.2V/cell, or higher
Specific energy (capacity) 150–220Wh/kg
Charge (C-rate) 0.7–1C, charges to 4.20V, some go to 4.30V; 3h charge typical. Charge current above 1C shortens battery life.
Discharge (C-rate) 1C; 2C possible on some cells; 2.50V cut-off
Cycle life 1000–2000 (related to depth of discharge, temperature)
Thermal runaway 210°C (410°F) typical. High charge promotes thermal runaway
Cost ~$420 per kWh (Source: RWTH, Aachen)
Applications E-bikes, medical devices, EVs, industrial
Comments
2019 update: Provides high capacity and high power. Serves as Hybrid Cell. Favorite chemistry for many uses; market share is increasing.
Leading system; dominant cathode chemistry.