40 to 100 amps charging from tow vehicle

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Wabbiteer

I
First: stock alternators can charge around 15 to 50 amps at idle but are designed for two, three or more times engine idle speed to reach full output, so unless there is an automatic throttle adjustment just letting the engine idle 5 or 10 amp output will not be a huge benefit to a large battery bank. Compensating regulators and idle rpm high-output alternators or even a second alternator dedicated to auxiliary loads may be a solution but leaving things stock means in-transit or high-idle charging as primary to get desired alternator RPMs.

It depends on the alternator.

Ford and Chevy are both using large-frame alternators in vehicles set up for towing. While they have slightly higher maximum output, their real advantage is much higher output at idle speed. The AD244 in my Suburban is rated for 130 amps at idle, and I've measured it doing around 80 amps

Chevy started making the large-frame CS-144 available in 1986, and switched to the AD-244 at some point. Output is roughly similar for these two.

The situation with Ford and Dodge is similar.

For Chevy, trucks made with the smaller alternators (CS-130, etc), the large-frame alternators are a drop-in plug-compatible replacement in most cases (a few require a $40 adapter plug). You usually have to replace the drive belt with the next longer size.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Wabbiteer

* CA_Tallguy mentions Anderson Connectors. I’ve stayed with traditional trucking & agricultural connectors since they are proven, Andersons work great in protected/sheltered areas but weather and grit, grit especially if any contact grease is used, adds in trouble.

I see a Grote 2-pole 200A plug/socket for agriculture that accepts up to 4awg cable, and a Pollak 1-pole 300A unit that accepts up to 2/0 cable.

These connectors are mainly used for intermittent loads -- usually hydraulic power packs for lift gates. I would derate them for continuous duty use, like battery charging.

The Anderson connectors are used for forklift batteries and are a self-wiping design that's relatively trouble free even in weather.

32 feet
4AWG wire 75A = 10.22 % voltage drop, at 30A = 4.08%
2/0AWG wire 75A = 3.20% voltage drop, at 30A = 1.28%

The only way to charge at these currents is to run up the voltage at the source to compensate for the cable loss. The Sterling and other remote battery charging products do this. As a result, you can size the battery cable for ampacity rather than voltage drop.

Okay – The cables on the vehicle have got to be an armored flexible welding style cable, keeping the conductors tight together keeps the power loop the cleanest power, and with the chance to do serious damage the cables should be routed in flexible/solid conduit to shrug off road hazard damage that would be unnoticed otherwise.

Duplex boat cable gets the job done and is available in sizes at least up to 6 awg. Like UF only flexible. Much easier to install than something in conduit.

Can the sections of the tow vehicle warranty be voided if you don’t use the OEM optional second battery kit and follow the exact routing the factory does on the stock trailer harness? Maybe – just let something happen and see if they don’t spike their national dealer VIN database with the trouble source you’ve introduced. Just saying, adding something to the battery terminal versus alternator may have consequences – are we good with that?

Anyhow – The sterling looks great except its meant to be mounted in the engine compartment of a boat, the same limitation that my unit has. “Install the unit in a cool and well-ventilated position close to the alternator. Also, the installation point has to be dry and free from heavy condensation since the unit is not waterproof. Do not fit it in a closed box as this might lead to overheating of the unit and reduced performance.” There is a possibility placing the unit inside the truck engine compartment inside a splash proof but ventilated shell would work, I have no idea where best to place my charger especially since a new vehicle is in the works..

I'm not sure that the engine compartment of a boat is materially better environmentally than the engine compartment of a car.

[CA_Tallguy]

Well the unit arrived and it is pretty darn hefty. That's a good thing considering the amps it is going to handle. But there is no way I am going to fit it under the hood. I still think that under a seat or in the spot under my dash is going to be the only option. More likely under the dash as it will save 4 feet X 4 runs of heavy cable (neg and 3 positives - alt in and trailer + vehicle batteries).

I should have thought about the continuous duty issue on the trailer connectors. Hmmm.

[CA_Tallguy]

Hmm. This cable assembly for the 2 pole liftgate socket says not recommended for pulling power from the tractor (aka tow vehicle)

http://www.easternmarine.com/15-lift...e-assy-23-2626

[lewster]

'Duplex boat cable gets the job done and is available in sizes at least up to 6 awg. Like UF only flexible. Much easier to install than something in conduit.'

It actually is available all the way up to 2AWG. I am using a spool in a 900 watt solar installation tomorrow.

[CA_Tallguy]

I actually have some nice marine cable for my solar panels. Will have to explore that avenue a bit more but I may want to get something more rated for flexible, mobile, industrial use and to take a beating. I feel like marine cable is designed for fixed placement, isn't it? My big concern is between the trailer and truck right now.

Still struggling between using an anderson connector and heavy cable between rear bumper and trailer vs a premade coil for liftgate applications like I posted above.

The liftgate cables are nice and compact, but only 4 gauge. I have found one at a decent price -- two conductor with two pole connector in a springy coil. The coiling of some of the dual conductor cables could be handy, though it would add to the length. The only thing is the cables and connectors are rated for only 100 to 200 amps, and that isn't likely a continuous rating. The bulk of my usage will likely be 50 amps and lower, however.

On the other hand, using an anderson connector... I would probably have to go with a sb175, which isn't a little connector. I actually use these in a few other places. Kind of big hanging off the back of the truck, and not very shielded from the elements. They do have a boot, and dust cover available, the sb175 can take up to 1/0 cable. I don't real want to go larger than this connector.

With the anderson, I think my best bet would be "entertainment cable" or type W. It's what the carnies use! I am hopeful of finding it in a dual conductor configuration. Also looking at type SOW and SOOW.

Type W/entertainment cable....

Used in extremely demanding applications including
Diesel electric locomotives
Portable power systems
television
theater
mobile communication vans
Ship to shore power
mobile mining equipment
spotlights & sound systems
Carnival & entertainment industry activities
Other similar applications that would require temporary power

And here is type SC which is even "suitable for continuous immersion in water"

http://www.lexproducts.com/cs/specif..._feeder_cables

[CA_Tallguy]

This site has a good assortment of W and other types of cable that could work well....

Power Cable Type W, Electrical Wire 2, Romex Wire, Welding Cable 4, Tray Cable Sales

[Wabbiteer]

No shortcuts – this is an occupied structure with people living and sleeping in it. I like conduit. I like heavy copper.

De-rating is what can make connectors last a long long time, whether by 40%, 50%, 75%, 90% - it all depends on duty cycle and environment. Don’t size connectors at 200A when the charger is rated at 200A, even if it’s now a wee sleepy little alternator.

The Anderson connectors are used for forklift batteries and are a self-wiping design that's relatively trouble free even in weather.

I’ve seen a different perspective - that Anderson flavor of self-wiping is effective when regularly exercised, example shift-work or routinely swapped from charger to battery power source between uses, been there done that and replaced burned contacts before – and they were in clean shop environments. Road grit is a killer so a motive power battery connection that never sees semi-rig turbulence kicking up sand and endless road-spray driving in weather may not be the best example.

For a really professional installation look at these – there are some NEAT socket receptacles 2/3rds of the way down the PDF that with adding a sturdy and hidden inside-the-shell mounting bracket would be really sexy. One of my Texas Oil Patch welding buddies swears by the 1/3 turn cam locks… They have icing proof, chemical resistant and most any flavor you can think of…

Getting high current jumpers designed for Over-the-road trucking or agriculture (or welding) where they are expected to operate unattended in any weather for weeks at a time would still be my first choice.

Also, stress relief should be mandatory on these jumpers, cable clamps w/ spring or other anchor to snub possible vibrations and reduce pull-apart forces

you can size the battery cable for ampacity rather than voltage drop.

Happiness is not a hot cable or overheated connections, even if for a short time period. Five percent or even two percent drop is a good ‘etched in stone’ target even if the power is near free.

12 Volts at 150A is 1800 watts. Example: throw 150 amps down 30 feet of 2awg... can we say 12% voltage drop? That is 216 watts of heat dissipating in six pounds of copper that will rise 26°F in the first minute seeing that current, all snug in its insulation. Now let’s add in a connection, even the best Anderson 275A connections have a 20C temp rise at 150A that then coincides with its supply cables being heated giving nowhere for the connector heat to dissipate to... in the first minute. 1/0 would be 7.5%, 2/0 would be 6%, 4/0 3.75%... Not subscribing to voltage drop design is a horrible idea, always size for voltage drop. Where it gets really expensive is doing the work twice…

[CA_Tallguy]

What about the single pole liftgate/trucker connectors vs the camlocks?

I'm fairly convinced to ditch the 4 gauge liftgate dual pole cable/connectors and instead to use the type W cable or DLO (diesel locomotive) or something similar between the bumper and the trailer. That type W stuff and variants seems awesome and flexible. DLO seems to be sold alongside it and if have to check the flexibility and sheathing info. I'm thinking about 1/0 for this last 5 or 6 feet, if not the whole run.

The single pole liftgate setup I believe offers premade cables with much higher ratings.

But the single pole solutions with two separate connectors is really starting to feel too cumbersome. In this regard, I sort of want to go with the sb175 anderson and just call it a day. The connector will get exercised regularly since I'm a full timer, but still, it is exposed, outdoor road level use and I agree they don't seem to be the perfect connector for that.

[CA_Tallguy]

Hmmm this site offers 6 foot 4/0 camlock jumpers for $65

https://www.atidistributors.com/elec...ock-pig-tails/

I would prefer crimps rather than set screw connections though.

[Jammer]

Type W with camlocks is typically in single conductor setups where a multi-conductor cable would be too heavy and unwieldy to deal with.

Pin and sleeve connectors are the multi-pole equivalent of camlocks. Also something to consider, and eliminates the chance of a traveling companion connecting them backwards.

[Wabbiteer]

I humbly apologize by contributing to mission creep.

I'm looking to do the same thing, likely will clone what becomes of this process. I've been in a holding pattern on my project for a long time and have been collecting needy items. I glommed onto a 100' roll of 400°F rated 1/0 for $1/ft shipped, and have four 20' lengths of silicone 2000V 4/0 ultra-flex cable that set me back $1.50/ft delivered, have collected the related tools, circuit breakers and fuses and such that are merrily incubating in bins. Just need to finalize the details.

Speaking of, I once thought the trailer side could be hardwired and able to be retracted/coiled in a locked compartment or frame mounted box - to be a multiple-use input. I'm seriously interested in having a tap in for outdoor solar and/or a DC generator, either the Honda Eu3000 type or cell tower backup hutch-style (waiting in the garage actually).

Anyhow, those prefabbed cable/socket answer looks sexy as well... That 4/0 is certainly manly but I agree with the hex-screw clamp being undesirable, though the lug barrel could still be soldered, preheat & pre-solder both halves and join them... Heck, the threaded hex-screw barrels would make it easier to solder . I see the Cooper Posilock have a crimp & solder option.

To jump up a size in the Andersons connector, to the SB350, and have a drip guard covering/hiding each ends' junction area, with wires exiting downward to shed water away - the 'box' cover would have to breath to prevent trapping condensation but there could be some flexible shield to prevent live water entry from towing slipstream air buffeting between vehicles.

This may be one place you could opt to go a size smaller cable but keeping the largest connector (making them yourself) for just that short run where the cables hang in midair for the short distance - I hate to say it but finding the cables missing after coming out of a restaurant would be a little less painful then. The rain shield sure could have a padlock hanging on it too, as well as aircraft cable & spring cable support that would be tamper-resistant...

[CA_Tallguy]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Type W with camlocks is typically in single conductor setups where a multi-conductor cable would be too heavy and unwieldy to deal with. Pin and sleeve connectors are the multi-pole equivalent of camlocks. Also something to consider, and eliminates the chance of a traveling companion connecting them backwards.

I like the idea of a single connector. I'm trying to find an appropriate pin and sleeve connector. So far, the amp ratings I'm seeing are only up to 200 and 400 amps - but I think that rating is at a much higher anticipated voltage? For example, one is listed as a "400 amp" connector but under brief specs it says Voltage 600VAC/250VDC, 50-400 Hz

So I'm guessing that it will handle more amps at 12 volts, correct?

Another thing is that I'm finding very few options for this or other connectors with just two pins. I'm going to ponder the possibility of moving to four pins and wire conductors, using two for positive and two for negative and then smaller gauge for the two then if it were a single connector for each. Could make doing this in a single cable more manageable.

[CA_Tallguy]

Like how about this type W rated for 600v and 152 amps at 2awg with 4 conductors? Would using two conductors be equivalent to 1/0 or 2/0? And is the 152 amps at 600v leaving me with more amps cushion at 12v? Not sure if it works like that but I know that in watts conversion the amps double when volts halve or something like that.

http://www.wireandcabletogo.com/Type-W-Cable/

[CA_Tallguy]

Originally Posted by Wabbiteer

I hate to say it but finding the cables missing after coming out of a restaurant would be a little less painful then. The rain shield sure could have a padlock hanging on it too, as well as aircraft cable & spring cable support that would be tamper-resistant...

Ack! I hadn't contemplated wire thieves. Hmmm.

[CA_Tallguy]

Here's what 4 conductor 2awg looks with an arktite connector. This is from ebay. These things can be expensive! Also would need to fabricate a box for it to sit in on the truck and find a flap to protect the front when not in use.

[CA_Tallguy]

Maybe I'm backwards on my thinking that I could use more amps at a lower voltage on these connectors vs the ratings... Since in thinking about it, I know the recommended wire for my solar was a lot smaller at 48v than 12v. Hmmm. Also, they are showing you can use a higher horsepower motor with the connectors at higher voltage. If that's the case, these crouse hinds connectors may not be suitable, which seems like it would be surprising since they are so beefy. The connectors are only rated to 400 amps at the most on top (prohibitively expensive) units. The lower end is 40 to 100 amps.

[richinny]

have you looed at connectors for snow plows? they might be beefy enough and weather resistant.

wasn't this issue tackled when they first started running power lines? (DC lost) the comment to go from dc generator > dc to ac converter > ac to dc converter, sure is starting to look easier.

a nice TT-30a outlet mounted on the bumper might also be a possibility and let you use more of what you already have in the trailer.

[CA_Tallguy]

Interesting idea but looks like they are too small. My search for snow plow connectors also came up with Anderson connectors which reminded me of that option. Thinking about it again is making me want to just go for that and be fine with it. Seems like it is coming down to either that or the ones for carnival rides unless someone can help me understand if these pin and sleeve have the capacity.

The nice thing about an anderson connector is that installation would be a breeze and it could be tucked out of the way on the truck side, behind the bumper, when not in use.

A bit of welding and torch cutting to my current ranch bumper would probably be needed to create a spot for the pin and sleeve receptacle. Those connectors are also really bulky on the umbilical side.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by CA_Tallguy

I like the idea of a single connector. I'm trying to find an appropriate pin and sleeve connector. So far, the amp ratings I'm seeing are only up to 200 and 400 amps - but I think that rating is at a much higher anticipated voltage? For example, one is listed as a "400 amp" connector but under brief specs it says Voltage 600VAC/250VDC, 50-400 Hz

So I'm guessing that it will handle more amps at 12 volts, correct?

For wire and connectors, typically the current handling capacity is unaffected by voltage.

Unless I'm missing something, you're not going to get 200 amps because the truck alternator doesn't produce that much. And you think 400 amps is too small? If you're really pushing that kind of power -- 400 x 12 = 4.8 kW -- you're probably better off engineering something that runs at higher voltages.

The reason it is hard to find connectors of larger capacity is that any sort of portable cabling becomes unwieldy at the sizes necessary to support that kind of current because of the weight and the high minimum bend radius.

Another thing is that I'm finding very few options for this or other connectors with just two pins. I'm going to ponder the possibility of moving to four pins and wire conductors, using two for positive and two for negative and then smaller gauge for the two then if it were a single connector for each. Could make doing this in a single cable more manageable.

The typical application for pin and sleeve is the connection of 3-phase AC power. Yes, you can run two wires in parallel, but you have to be careful to be sure that one of the two isn't open, which will lead to overheating.

Originally Posted by CA_Tallguy

Maybe I'm backwards on my thinking that I could use more amps at a lower voltage on these connectors vs the ratings... Since in thinking about it, I know the recommended wire for my solar was a lot smaller at 48v than 12v. Hmmm. Also, they are showing you can use a higher horsepower motor with the connectors at higher voltage. If that's the case, these crouse hinds connectors may not be suitable, which seems like it would be surprising since they are so beefy. The connectors are only rated to 400 amps at the most on top (prohibitively expensive) units. The lower end is 40 to 100 amps.

A given number of watts, VA, or horsepower requires less current at higher voltage, so ampacity limited cables can carry 2x the watts, hp, etc. when the voltage is doubled. Also, the amount of power lost due to voltage drop (resistive heating) goes by the square of the current, in a design limited by voltage drop, you can carry 4x the power when you double the voltage.

Originally Posted by richinny

have you looed at connectors for snow plows? they might be beefy enough and weather resistant.

I have a snow plow. The connectors on it are small and unreliable and only work because the pump motor is an intermittent load.

Some plows use Anderson connectors.

wasn't this issue tackled when they first started running power lines? (DC lost) the comment to go from dc generator > dc to ac converter > ac to dc converter, sure is starting to look easier.

a nice TT-30a outlet mounted on the bumper might also be a possibility and let you use more of what you already have in the trailer.

Well this is what happens when you start overbuilding all the components. On my trailer and tow vehicles everything is engineered around a 40 amp charge circuit and uses either 6 or 8 gauge wire. At that point there are all kinds of workable cable and connector choices.

Originally Posted by CA_Tallguy

My search for snow plow connectors also came up with Anderson connectors which reminded me of that option. Thinking about it again is making me want to just go for that and be fine with it. Seems like it is coming down to either that or the ones for carnival rides unless someone can help me understand if these pin and sleeve have the capacity.

The Anderson connectors are cheap and are widely used for battery connections. I can't imagine why they wouldn't work. If they fail from road salt and grit, well, replace them every few years. No connector lasts forever, and you can buy a whole box of Anderson connectors for the price of one of those carnie-rat lashups.

The nice thing about an anderson connector is that installation would be a breeze and it could be tucked out of the way on the truck side, behind the bumper, when not in use.

Bingo.

A bit of welding and torch cutting to my current ranch bumper would probably be needed to create a spot for the pin and sleeve receptacle. Those connectors are also really bulky on the umbilical side.

A hole saw might be a better choice, but it's your bumper.