30 amp outlet with or without breaker

[63air]

I'm about to install a 30 amp rv outlet on my new building and they are available with and without a breaker on the outlet box . Any reason for choosing one style over the other. It's an Eaton box and I have not looked but I don't think the breaker is a GFI. The box will be close to the main panel so I am going to use an A/C whip and a grommet in the metal of the building for the installation. I have about two months of finish work on the inside of the house I'm building so I can't go anywhere but at least I can enjoy the Airstream in the drive on the weekend while I work. I can't wait till the guy who has the million dollar plus Prevost parked at my neighbors house comes over to ask questions about my '63 . They always do.

[Martee]

Choose the 30A outlet box with a breaker switch.

[vintagemotor]

The breaker switch is included on the box so that the energy in the line length of cable to the service panel doesn't kill you, YES get the one with the breaker.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

Turning off the power as you connect / disconnect your RV is a really good idea. Dry (no power) connect/ disconnect of a connector set is always the preferred approach. They will last a lot longer that way.

Bob

[Mollysdad]

The breaker protects the wire coming from the source.
Use that one.

[ITSNO60]

Originally Posted by Mollysdad

The breaker protects the wire coming from the source.
Use that one.

The wire coming from the source will have a breaker at the source. The only reason for another breaker at the RV is to shut off power to the RV receptacle without walking to the main panel, a nice option to have but not necessarily unsafe without it.

[garry]

I see it as more of a convenience issue rather than a safety issue I would install the breaker.

[cwf]

2 breakers.. one in main distribution panel... the other on the exterior where the AS plugs in..

Remember ... Belt AND Suspenders is much safer for everyone....

Also, if you have a short occur in the outside panel, the first one will protect the whip.

[gklott]

Originally Posted by 63air

I'm about to install a 30 amp rv outlet on my new building and they are available with and without a breaker on the outlet box . Any reason for choosing one style over the other.

I most strongly recommend that you install an Eaton 1-pole 30A GFCI breaker, either a GFTCB130 (BR panel) or Eaton CHFGFT130 (CH panel), depending on your box. I use GFCI breakers for both my 30A and 50A RV outlets. GFCI for RV outlets will be required soon in the NEC. It works well, and it detected a neutral to ground fault in our RV cord.

Yes, install the box with the breaker per NEC 551.77 (b), "Disconnecting Means. A disconnecting switch or circuit breaker shall be provided in the site supply equipment for disconnecting the power supply to the recreational vehicle."

From 551.77(c), your outlet shall be no less than 2 ft. above ground and no more than 6 ft. 6 in. above ground.

You should also mark the new outlet properly. Per NEC 551.77 (f), "Marking: Where the site supply equipment contains a 120/250V receptacle, the equipment shall be marked as follows: 'Turn disconnecting switch or circuit breaker off before inserting or removing plug. Plug must be fully inserted or removed.' The marking shall be located on the equipment adjacent to the the receptacle outlet."

73/gus

[63air]

I'm quite familiar with the codes but often times they are the result of who gets on the various committees and uses them to make a competitors product obsolete . Ask any journeyman electrician how many times a homeowner asks them back to remove the recently required arc fault breakers. By the way I did install an Eaton box with a breaker to go with a Square D main and a GFI breaker.

[ITSNO60]

While the requirements of article 551 may be a good idea they are directed toward recreational vehicle sites within recreational vehicle parks and are not required for private recreational sites.

[rivetsforlife]

The 2017 NEC does not require GFCI protection for 30 or 50 amp single phase receptacles installed in/at dwellings. Only 15 and 20 amp receptacles. In other than dwelling units, it does require GFCI protection for all receptacles 50 amps or less, single phase and 100 amps or less if 3 phase. The local authority may or may not consider a detached garage/shop/shed structure to be part of the dwelling. I have seen that called both ways. IMO, the requirements of Article 551are sufficient for personnel protection. On the other hand, a GFCI ahead of the receptacle can point out other issues with your wiring system. 64 had no GFCI protection anywhere. It will when the renovation is complete.

[gklott]

Originally Posted by ITSNO60

While the requirements of article 551 may be a good idea they are directed toward recreational vehicle sites within recreational vehicle parks and are not required for private recreational sites.

The key to ITSNO60's comment is "a good idea".

Yes, Article 551 may not be required for private RV sites. "Requiring" any NEC provision is up to the authority having jurisdiction. The NEC itself has no authority. It's a collection of good ideas - best practices.

I agree with ITSNO60 - it's a good idea.

Note that 551.77 (b) says "disconnect switch or circuit breaker". The good idea is to have that disconnect at the receptacle. All RV owners should turn off the power supply before attaching our RV's 30A or 50A plug to the receptacle - in a RV park or at home. That's why the NEC includes 551.77 (f) marking as a good idea.

If 63air has a switch or circuit breaker right at the receptacle, 63air can much more easily turn off the supply power before plugging in.

Originally Posted by rivetsforlife

On the other hand, a GFCI ahead of the receptacle can point out other issues with your wiring system. 64 had no GFCI protection anywhere. It will when the renovation is complete.

I agree with rivetsforlife. The 30A GFCI identified our "other issue". It was, and continues to be, a great idea for our Airstream's connection at home.

Requirements are not my reason for making these recommendations. The NEC's good ideas help us to design safe, work safe, and stay safe.

73/gus

[gklott]

Originally Posted by 63air

I'm quite familiar with the codes but often times they are the result of who gets on the various committees and uses them to make a competitors product obsolete.

All participants have motives for laws, codes, etc. The same comment is true for aviation safety, vehicle safety, medical safety, and other legislative and standards bodies.

Originally Posted by 63air

Ask any journeyman electrician how many times a homeowner asks them back to remove the recently required arc fault breakers.

Hopefully, any professional journeyman electrician reminds the homeowner that the arc fault protection is a good idea - and that she cannot remove it because the authority having jurisdiction requires it. I heard the same comment for years about GFCI breakers and receptacles.

Does your journeyman electrician offer to troubleshoot why the arc fault breaker is tripping? In our home electrical renovation, we found a branch circuit damaged by a cable staple. Glad our arc fault breaker did its job and consistently tripped.

Originally Posted by 63air

By the way I did install an Eaton box with a breaker to go with a Square D main and a GFI breaker.

Good combination.

73/gus

[68 TWind]

The first 30amp RV box I installed did not have the breaker in the box but my main load center is close so I can flip the breaker when I plug in. My new box under the carport shed has a breaker in the box. Definitely worth the extra money (got mine from Amazon for around $60).

[Mollysdad]

Originally Posted by ITSNO60

The wire coming from the source will have a breaker at the source. The only reason for another breaker at the RV is to shut off power to the RV receptacle without walking to the main panel, a nice option to have but not necessarily unsafe without it.

It took me a while to come to the realization that I wrote. The breaker protects the wire, not the equipment. So from the main breaker to the RV, that wire is protected by the breaker, and I'll stick by that. Can you leave if out? Sure, but it's better with it, so since this is a new installation, why not add it?

[ITSNO60]

Note that Article 551 does not require a circuit breaker at the pedestal, it merely requires a disconnecting means just like is required at any detached structure. The disconnecting means is not required to provide overload or short circuit protection when that protection is already provided at the source. In the case of a pedestal with different hookups available breakers would be required of course because the feeding circuit exceeds the ratings of the 20 and 30 amp hookups.

Redundant protection at the pedestal may or may not trip first, depending on the trip curve of each device and if the system is series rated or not. In a non series rated system is it not uncommon during a short circuit event to have a large upstream device open and the smaller branch circuit device remain closed.

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by ITSNO60

Note that Article 551 does not require a circuit breaker at the pedestal, it merely requires a disconnecting means just like is required at any detached structure. The disconnecting means is not required to provide overload or short circuit protection when that protection is already provided at the source. In the case of a pedestal with different hookups available breakers would be required of course because the feeding circuit exceeds the ratings of the 20 and 30 amp hookups.

Redundant protection at the pedestal may or may not trip first, depending on the trip curve of each device and if the system is series rated or not. In a non series rated system is it not uncommon during a short circuit event to have a large upstream device open and the smaller branch circuit device remain closed.

Hi

On a very practical basis ... the campground wants the trip to happen at the pedestal. That way the camper is the one who deals with the first layer issue rather than some poor maintenance guy who heads to the upstream panel.

Bob