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Old 06-03-2014, 11:42 PM   #1
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2014 25' FB Eddie Bauer
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3 Stage Charger

How come Airstream does not have a 3 stage charger built in?
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Old 06-04-2014, 12:11 AM   #2
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Short answer, because AS does not think it is worth the money vs. sales.

On the FC series they include a significant package of Television, DVD player, and fancy radio as standard equipment, because they know it will sell more units. but a 3 stage charger and better battery system will not. Their optional inverter is of mediocre quality, and their optional factory solar system is way overpriced and of limited power output.

I guess (only) that they figure most users don't know, or care about the quality of the electrical systems needed for boondocking, so they don't provide them. They have a full hookup at a full service campground mentality.

I write this at a remote Forest Service Campground in Montana, with my replaced 3 stage charger, pair of 6 volt batteries, low power draw inverter, Tri Metric battery monitor system and 200 watt solar system. All added costs to me over the original price of the 20' FC. But with it, and a good cell phone net service, I can camp in comfort with almost no one around. Cost? $3.50 a night! And I didn't do it for the cost, but because I love remote campsites with lots of space and quiet.

Sorry, I got carried away with my answer.
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Old 06-04-2014, 12:21 AM   #3
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And, unlike yourself, most people have no clue what a 3-stage charger is, nor do they care. You do. I do. We're in the minority.

A friend who is an EE and a genius started a company that makes very effective charging systems for boats. He decided to try to sell his wares to the RV crowd at the Calgary Stampede, which is a huge RV gathering as well as a big rodeo, and he couldn't give the stuff away. Meanwhile, the local Interstate battery dealer sold a semi trailer full of batteries in a weekend. People routinely kill their batteries by mistreating them, and the only answer they can come up with is new batteries! Expensive in the long run, but - simple mind, simple answers!
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Old 06-04-2014, 05:37 AM   #4
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Once again this is an example of the beauty and value of this forum and the people like you and Idroba who, on a regular basis, are willing to share your knowledge and insight to those of us just getting started with their AS. When i purchased my 310 a year ago i was absolutely clueless about the systems and intracacy of this vehicle. I have a pretty good foundation of knowledge in mechanics, residential electrical, and construction priciples but quickly realized i was out of my comfort zone when getting the 310 put together. I would have been lost, and broke, without the folks here on the forum.

So, as i proceeded in getting the rig ready i thought i was doing the right thing in leaving it plugged into shore power 24/7 thus keeping the batteries at full charge. It had the original converter, i had no idea that i was frying the batteries in the process. So when the inevitable happened and the batteries were boiled dry i inquired here about battery replacement. I was quickly educated about converters and the value of 3 stage units. I wouldnt have known ANYTHING about this if not for the fine folks here on the forum.

Sorry about my long winded post here but i just cant pass up the oportunity to express my gratitude to you folks for your help along the way here. Your patience is seemingly unending!

THANK YOU!
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Old 06-04-2014, 05:54 AM   #5
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I completely agree that this forum is very valuable, even if takes time to keep current. After decades of owning boats I was very familiar with maintenance and repair but the Airstream was a different beast. Actually less well-built and less accessible than a cruising sailboat. The converter/charger was one of the first things I replaced although the factory solar kept the batteries charged. Even the factory solar controller had to go as it was low end, not right for the batteries.
I really do not fault Airstream for using cheaper stuff behind the curtain as the look and feel sell their product. I suspect what they install serves a part-time camper pretty well for the typical camping season. Serious users must upgrade and that is just a cost of owning. Certainly for the average owner replacing cheap lead acid batteries is a better deal than paying for an expensive inverter/charger.
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Old 06-04-2014, 11:11 AM   #6
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Thanks, I like to remote camp as well and had no idea that the battery and charging system was so poor. For the money I spent on the Eddie Bauer I am sorely disappointed and will need to find help to upgrade my system.
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Old 06-04-2014, 11:15 AM   #7
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Yes, I as well was clueless and it has been a process to get educated, thanks to the forum.
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Old 06-04-2014, 11:19 AM   #8
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Thanks, any recommendations in the southeast for replacement of converter/inverter as I am not knowledgeable enough to do it myself.
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Old 06-04-2014, 11:21 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jfed View Post
How come Airstream does not have a 3 stage charger built in?
Joan
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Because, once you cut through the hype, a 3 stage charger only makes a practical difference to people who are trying to charge their batteries with a generator.

The stock converters that Airstream has been using at least since 2010 do not overcharge batteries any more than a 3 stage charger will. I have the original batteries in my trailer, and the original converter, and I leave the trailer plugged in all the time, year 'round. My batteries still work great. The only problem I have with my converter is that it takes 24 hours to fully charge the batteries.

Some earlier converters that Airstream used were prone to damaging the batteries. The current production ones are not.

3 stage converters will overcharge batteries in hot weather unless they are temperature compensated, and the vast majority of 3 stage chargers are not installed with a temperature probe.
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Old 06-04-2014, 12:19 PM   #10
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I just want to follow this....
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Old 06-04-2014, 01:20 PM   #11
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On my '07 Safari, I used the standard converter and when I left it in storage, I used a Battery Minder Charger on the batteries 24/7 (except when I used the charger for other batteries now and then). My original Interstate batteries lasted 7 years.

When I got my '14, I just moved the pigtail to the new unit and will do the same.

We tend to boondock for a few days, then go to a campground where we can dump, refill and recharge. Battery charge has never been the limiting factor- water and wastewater has been. When boondocking we don't watch TV (which would be a great battery drain), it's boondocking.

With the bigger tanks in our new unit, I expect to have more days boondocking between full service campgrounds.

Finally, in virtually every car you ever bought you could buy a better stereo aftermarket. What's the difference in an Airstream?
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Old 06-04-2014, 02:06 PM   #12
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I prefer to avoid using a generator.

I have my tow vehicle set up with an enhanced charge line and an extra battery, which is one way to do it. Power does become a limiting factor when running the furnace, but we can stay for a full day even in cold weather if stationary, or 3 days in the summer. If we're driving around the batteries recharge. Works for us.

If we needed more time, I'd add batteries and solar.
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Old 06-04-2014, 02:15 PM   #13
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I quickly learned about the weakness of my converter on my new 23 Flying Cloud on this forum and purchased a multi-stage converter through: 4600 Series Upgrade or Replacement Power Converters from Progressive Dynamics
It's also amazing to me that A/S won't upgrade the "build quality" of their units.
It may save them a few dollars now, but in the long run it will cost them much more......
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Old 06-05-2014, 10:03 AM   #14
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Seems like there are enough boaters here to thoroughly confuse everybody else regarding this admittedly complex issue. Here's an article from the West Marine website on battery charging which may perhaps shed some light on the subject.

Selecting a Battery Charger | West Marine

BTW, the alternators in the tow vehicles won't do a very good job of charging the trailer batteries either, unless they are regulated in the same way as the battery chargers are. As a former cruising sailor who didn't have a generator, I had to retrofit the charging system on my boat's little diesel engine so it would fully charge gel-cell deep cycle batteries without damaging them. In the boating world, since we can't use propane refrigerators, the single biggest energy user on the boat is the fridge, and the batteries and charging system needs to be able to support them. I could live on the hook (anchored - the boat versioin of boondocking) for three or four days, and recharge my substantial battery bank in about six hours of engine time.

The alternator in a car or truck isn't designed to charge batteries. It's designed to support loads, like headlights, heater fan, wipers, etc. Charging the battery is a secondary function. It actually doesn't take a lot of capacity to start a gasoline engine, so the battery doesn't need to have the same kind of full charge that deep cycle RV batteries need. The regulator in a standard automotive alternator senses feedback voltage at its own output, and as soon as that voltage starts to rise as the battery is replenished after starting, the regulator starts to turn off the alternator's output. That's exactly wrong for deep cycle batteries. But, as has been mentioined, it works for the way most folks use their RV's, so if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I've had to re-think what I expect from a charging system with the AS. Electrical loads are quite light, since the fridge will run on propane and the lighting in the newer units is all LED. The biggest electrical loads will be the furnace fan and the TV.
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Old 06-05-2014, 12:04 PM   #15
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Quote:
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The alternator in a car or truck isn't designed to charge batteries. It's designed to support loads, like headlights, heater fan, wipers, etc. Charging the battery is a secondary function. It actually doesn't take a lot of capacity to start a gasoline engine, so the battery doesn't need to have the same kind of full charge that deep cycle RV batteries need. The regulator in a standard automotive alternator senses feedback voltage at its own output, and as soon as that voltage starts to rise as the battery is replenished after starting, the regulator starts to turn off the alternator's output. That's exactly wrong for deep cycle batteries.
None of that is correct for tow vehicles manufactured in the last 15 years. It's a reasonably accurate description of the early charging systems with electromechanical controls that were used as late as the 1960s in some cases.

Truck alternators are designed to produce electric power. It makes no difference what the power is used for.

On most if not all fuel-injected trucks, the powertrain control module (PCM) manages alternator output voltage. In general the output voltage is temperature compensated, and in general there is some variation of what converter manufacturers call a "3 stage" charging algorithm. In practice this means that the PCM will drop the voltage target by half a volt or so when the engine has been running continuously for a long time.

There is no difference in correct charging technique between flooded deep cycle batteries and automotive batteries.

Automotive batteries and deep cycle batteries, alike, are kept near full charge by the charging system.
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Old 06-05-2014, 12:34 PM   #16
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Jammer,

That is not quite what I observe with my 2012 Silverado with the factory towing package. Whether or not the trailer is connected, I can see the voltmeter drop more than .5 volt when the truck battery is fully charged. However, when the Tow-Haul mode is selected the voltmeter reads higher and stays higher even when the trailer battery is fully charged. I concluded that the GM design is to keep voltage high to the trailer battery expecting that the total charge to the trailer battery is not going to be excessive.
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Old 06-05-2014, 12:34 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jfed View Post
Thanks, any recommendations in the southeast for replacement of converter/inverter as I am not knowledgeable enough to do it myself.

I would suggest you speak with Lew Farber. He is active on this forum under the screen name "lewster." He does a lot of work on Airstream electrical systems. He spends his summers in the Pacific NW and his winters in Marco Island Florida. His business is called Master Tech Mobile RV Systems.

You can find and communicate with him by searching for his screen name on the forum.

Good luck!
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Old 06-05-2014, 01:14 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer View Post

The stock converters that Airstream has been using at least since 2010 do not overcharge batteries any more than a 3 stage charger will. I have the original batteries in my trailer, and the original converter, and I leave the trailer plugged in all the time, year 'round. My batteries still work great. The only problem I have with my converter is that it takes 24 hours to fully charge the batteries.
This is good to know. Thanks Jammer. That's interesting the Parallax is not a three stage charger. I see on their (Parallax) website they have or are planning on a converter that is "temperature controlled output voltage"
I wondered what that battery disconnect switch out by the door was for.
great

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Old 06-06-2014, 01:24 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer View Post
None of that is correct for tow vehicles manufactured in the last 15 years. It's a reasonably accurate description of the early charging systems with electromechanical controls that were used as late as the 1960s in some cases.

Truck alternators are designed to produce electric power. It makes no difference what the power is used for.

On most if not all fuel-injected trucks, the powertrain control module (PCM) manages alternator output voltage. In general the output voltage is temperature compensated, and in general there is some variation of what converter manufacturers call a "3 stage" charging algorithm. In practice this means that the PCM will drop the voltage target by half a volt or so when the engine has been running continuously for a long time.

There is no difference in correct charging technique between flooded deep cycle batteries and automotive batteries.

Automotive batteries and deep cycle batteries, alike, are kept near full charge by the charging system.
Jammer, you're right, mea culpa. I come from the world of marine electrical systems, and the PCM-controlled alternators don't exist yet in that market. Heck, gasoline marine engines only got catalytic converters a couple of years ago.

Still, I wonder how the "smart" PCM regulation works when a set of trailer batteries are added to the system through the 7-wire connector. Deep-cycle flooded batteries do have a slightly different charge acceptance rate because of their thicker plates. They won't supply starting current as well as starting batteries with thinner plates, and the absorption stage of charging needs to be less aggressive to keep the plates from overheating.

I did a bit of reading on the PCM control systems, (I love this stuff!) and as far as I can tell the temperature compensation doesn't get its signal directly with a thermistor attached to the battery, which is usually the case in custom-designed marine charging systems, but rather with an algorithm in either the PCM or a separate battery management ecu, or from under-hood temperature sensing.

Somebody mentioned that a modern truck ordered with a towing package will include an algorithm that will monitor the trailer battery bank. How is this done? Inquiring minds want to know...
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Old 10-28-2016, 02:51 PM   #20
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I'm confused, sorry

I called WFCO and spoke to tech support. My 2014 Eddie Bauer has the WF5100 series inverter - which I was told has a three stage charger! Can we "turn off" the single stage in the Parallax system and have a system that doesn't cook batteries. I have now cooked 2 sets of batteries in 3 years by trying to "store/use" switch...
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