Hello Airstream Doers and Dreamers (formerly T)

[BearScream]

Originally Posted by rmkrum

Desk was standard in this model. We have one and love it. Desk is great for computer work and ham radio (my passion) setups. We added a tankless hot water heater to assist in taking hotel showers. Have solar panel on roof, plus several extra antennae.

Wet bath takes some getting used to, but the main trick we use is to place both parts of the toilet seat in the vertical position to allow water a chance to run off quickly after a shower. The prevents a surprise at zero dark hundred when your wife's bladder wakes her. Don't ask why I know this....

An inexpensive shower wall squeege helps as well keeping it dry. I'm looking for duckboards to get my feet off the wet floor as well. As for the bed, the partner better at climbing out should sleep on the inside side--it's just easier to manage. This is the only really irritating part of this layout, IMHO.

In my opinion, this length tows nicely with a small truck like a Tacoma, especially with a ProPride hitch. I'm not sure I'd like it with a smaller vehicle YMMV.

Thanks mkrum for the interesting post from owner's experience

The desk is a big win I agree. For a couple, the face-to-face dinette is almost a must; maybe not so much for a single. The kitchen is quite decent, although a minor quibble is the deep-knee bend refrigerator. I could sacrifice that far counter to raise the fridge up a bit as in the current models, maybe just a foot to have some space on top, a drawer on bottom (just thinking.)

Raising the toilet seats during long showers might add significantly to the black water tank load. It seems smaller trailers often do this to save space -- curious this was done in a 22'.

At only 600 lbs GVWR more it is clearly in the same class as the 20 for towing. It could work for me.

Can you shed any light on the frame matter raised above...

Originally Posted by timhortons

...
Apparently there's a problem with the frame strength on this design and it requires a known doable reinforcement though.
...

Thanks again,
-Myles

[BearScream]

Could not agree more Maggie, for a minimal and livable space, a sofa bed is the best use of space.. I think it could be designed so at least the sheets could remain in place, while the coverings could be stored in the "hamper" area (in the 20'). The idea I had in mind was to have a split mattress that stacks with the sheets in place between, something like one of the the extendable day beds at IKEA,

And it has the basics I want. Having possible problems with the frame worries me about this model though.

-Myles

[BearScream]

Originally Posted by Wild Child

Hello - After 15 years of dreaming we bought our 20'FC new from Colonial in NJ. So we are total newbies still learning the ropes and relying on the forum for valuable guidance. But wanted to chime in on how pleased we (husband & I) with the 20' unit and its layout.
For us, a wet bath was not an option we were interested in having, but we wanted the counter layout of the 20' - so that helped us when looking.
It also helped to sit in the different units at Colonial - they were terrific to deal with.
We tow with a 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee V8. It tows pretty good - ave gas mileage has been around 12mpg. Hubbie can speak to this more in detail than I. Only drawback I see so far with this tv is we want to purchase a generator and can't store it in the back of the vehicle and having to figure adding it somehow next spring. I am sure the forum will help!
A word of caution when shopping used and buying private party - be sure the title is clear, that the seller is truly private party and not a "quasie" dealer working out a different state than the unit, that the seller isn't asking for money wired to their bank account, etc....don't ask how I know this. It's hard to be objective with stars in your eyes, as we had. After a few foiled purchasing attempts, that is how we ended up buying from Colonial, as we wanted a REAL dealer with a good track record. Just sayin' as we want to save you and perhaps other folks from the same crazy train ride we experienced!
Since we live in MA too- please feel free to get in touch. Good luck in the search!

Congratulations Wild Child on finally getting your 20FC. Buying new is certainly the least risky way to go. If I didn't contemplate some major furnishing changes, I might do the same, especially as a first time. That was the reason I looked into Colonial recently on the way back from Philly. They have had a couple of 20s recently, all sold very rapidly at about $35K asking while I was getting up the courage to plunge. So I am back again looking.

It is a bit scary to buy privately and remotely. And the travel/shipping/transfer expenses have to be factored in. Your cautions make a lot of sense. As a newbie, I would feel safer buying used from a good dealer.

And thanks for the kind suggestion from the other end of our state.

-Myles

[rmkrum]

I wasn't too clear. Raise toilet seats to vertical position after you finish showering. Then the water drains off. If I left them up during a shower the bowl would be very full of water😝


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[slowmover]

Originally Posted by BearScream

Set (on a truck) would be too strong a word for it Slowmover. I thought I needed a truck of a certain weight not to get wagged by the tail and manage rougher terrain in the West.. And for the storage -- I thought I would want a generator at some point down the line, along with extra water. The cap would also be added protection for that and other valuable items I might want to carry.

In Phil Caputo's book "The Longest Road," he kept two dogs in it.

.

Hitch setup trumps a pickup truck. Other potential TV's are more stable. Storage for gen & fuel I understand. (And Caputo's book was a genuine disappointment). Pickups can really grow in weight if one is not careful.

As to independence, look to water and propane as said . . but leave out electricity. Can one refrigerate food, cook, clean, bathe and light the interior with only propane? Electricity is to power furnace fan and water pump only. With a small TT as you are contemplating one of the marine heaters could be fitted. And water pumped manually.

Hope you'll take time to have a long look at one of the oldsters. Context, perspective on "ideal" is the thought. Much was done right at the beginning of trailering and later compromised for "convenience". Electricity adds more problems than it solves.

Proceed from this. I am not advocating no or next to no electricity, per se. Minimization isn't the point. But it means next to nothing. How well one can do in a "grid down" situation is what matters. Homeowners can build-in redundancy as there is no mobility requirement. Having to abandon the trailer (in a manner of speaking) because one cannot any longer get along, is what is at stake.

I find it useful to look at first, two weeks, and then look to longer periods of not needing re-supply of any sort.

No generator, for instance, is likely to have enough fuel aboard for a period past two weeks if it does not use the TV fuel tank for re-supply. It is fine that one may park at the back yard of Relative X, but that may also not be possible for any of a variety of reasons. One may be ill or injured for a considerable period. One may experience any of a number of problems not singly, but grouped Injury + weather + a vehicle problem, for instance. Being able to weather the storm -- to ride it out -- is the central problem of living on the road.

A pilot, a sailor or a truck driver would tell you that there is no such thing as too much fuel. In same vein, there is no "too much water" or portable fuel (propane). Nearly all else is trivial given an adequate supply of food. Do some reading and come up with some numbers that you think may work. Given that "function" then "form" (TT size) will follow.

I would not normally recommend choosing TV prior to TT, but the assumption of a particular one would be to your advantage at this stage.
Use 13% TW and that 80% will remain on TV after proper WDH adjustments. (I would assume not less than 650-lbs on TV per above for initial survey of vehicles. This is to be deducted from stated GVWR. And why so many wind up with trucks bigger than they first contemplated).

As a control I would compare to BIGFOOT trailers in all ways.

.

[m.hony]

In the single axle vs. tandem axle question-
Isn't the shortest tandem axle Airstream a 23'?
The OP said he wanted a 20'. Maybe he would get a 23' or a 25'.

[BearScream]

Originally Posted by m.hony

In the single axle vs. tandem axle question-
Isn't the shortest tandem axle Airstream a 23'?
The OP said he wanted a 20'. Maybe he would get a 23' or a 25'.

The pictures in the classified show 2 axle:
2007 Airstream International CCD 22 - Louisiana

IIRC nothing current below 23 has 2.axles.
I thought the 22 was quite interesting as I posted. It seems to be an odd design that abandoned by AS. There was mention of a frame problem. No info on that yet.

I like the 20 because it has (or can have) what I want, with a more efficient TV as a daily driver, so 25 and even 23 less appealing.

-Myles

[rmkrum]

We have a 22 international CCD. The desk is nice. The wet bath is acceptable. I don't know anything about frame issues other than the need to seal a gap above the rear bumper that can let water in to mess up the floor in that area.

We camp with 2-3 aboard an a pack of 4 small dogs, so it has a surprising amount of room Nd a decent kitchen...we like it!


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[KJRitchie]

We had a wet bath in our Casita and I put down Dri Dek on the floor. Keeps the residue water on the shower floor off the feet for the next person to use the toilet. The only drawback of Dri Dek is it is a little rough on soft feet.

[BearScream]

Originally Posted by rmkrum

We have a 22 international CCD. The desk is nice. The wet bath is acceptable. I don't know anything about frame issues other than the need to seal a gap above the rear bumper that can let water in to mess up the floor in that area.

Thanks for the clarification.

Originally Posted by rmkrum

We camp with 2-3 aboard an a pack of 4 small dogs, so it has a surprising amount of room Nd a decent kitchen...we like it!

Yes, if I hadn't seen the 20 first, it would be a good alternate choice.
Since it is relatively rare, it is hard to get a feel for its market, or experience with it. Yours is certainly a favorable one.

Originally Posted by KJRitchie

We had a wet bath in our Casita and I put down Dri Dek on the floor. Keeps the residue water on the shower floor off the feet for the next person to use the toilet. The only drawback of Dri Dek is it is a little rough on soft feet.

The bath does put me off some. They could have exchanged the shower for the sink, rearranged. The sink outside the door would be a better compromise IMHO as in other small baths.

-Myles

[m.hony]

I don't want anything to do with a wet bath- claustrophobic for me-
If you can deal with it, a 20 will work. If not I think the full baths start with the tandem axle trailers.

[BearScream]

Originally Posted by m.hony

I don't want anything to do with a wet bath- claustrophobic for me-
If you can deal with it, a 20 will work. If not I think the full baths start with the tandem axle trailers.

The 20 has one.

[timhortons]

Originally Posted by BearScream

Thanks for the clarification.


Yes, if I hadn't seen the 20 first, it would be a good alternate choice.
Since it is relatively rare, it is hard to get a feel for its market, or experience with it. Yours is certainly a favorable one.


The bath does put me off some. They could have exchanged the shower for the sink, rearranged. The sink outside the door would be a better compromise IMHO as in other small baths.

-Myles

I wonder if anyone has retrofit the bathroom to have a separate shower. On the electricity issue, the only real need for generator level electricity is AC, in my guess. The whole AC issue is difficult.

CANAM are the ones that mentioned the frame issue to me. They have a 22 that they've been using for display or something. Because it's single axle and I think AS was playing around with getting the frame weight down that year.

To the OP: If you're 71 and your goal is to travel in a trailer I'd say 4 or 5 year old used would be best. Vintage is charming, but you want to go, not deal with a reno project or massive depreciation on new new.

[Skatiero]

We have extensive experience fitting as much function as possible into as little space as possible, because we are veteran renovators with seven kids and their grandmother living and traveling with us. You have some great ideas. A couple of points, if you were willing to forgo to bathroom sink in that 22 you could remodel to do a separate shower if the wet bath bothered you (though I personally would not mind a wet bath, there are many workarounds).... Also as far as sofa beds or gauchos which are comfortable and can hold their bed linens more or less in place it hidden when made into a sofa, check out the ikea karlstad sofa bed. It's extremely comfortable and is an ingenious design which does just what you are suggesting, the arms are removable as well which makes it very versatile with building in.

[rmkrum]

And, as a price point, ours was about $41,000 about 4 years ago from a dealer in Oregon. We're second owner, essentially. The Louisiana one's $34,000 price seems reasonable depending on its exact condition.


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[BearScream]

Originally Posted by timhortons

I
...
CANAM are the ones that mentioned the frame issue to me. They have a 22 that they've been using for display or something. Because it's single axle and I think AS was playing around with getting the frame weight down that year.

To the OP: If you're 71 and your goal is to travel in a trailer I'd say 4 or 5 year old used would be best. Vintage is charming, but you want to go, not deal with a reno project or massive depreciation on new new.

Interesting about the frame. Thanks for that.

Agree on the last point. I am looking maybe perhaps a few years further back also, but
not vintage. No ambition for major work. I kind of like the Safari 20 with the non-pano
window around the bed.

Thanks for that.
/myles

[BearScream]

Originally Posted by Skatiero

We have extensive experience fitting as much function as possible into as little space as possible, because we are veteran renovators with seven kids and their grandmother living and traveling with us. You have some great ideas. A couple of points, if you were willing to forgo to bathroom sink in that 22 you could remodel to do a separate shower if the wet bath bothered you (though I personally would not mind a wet bath, there are many workarounds).... Also as far as sofa beds or gauchos which are comfortable and can hold their bed linens more or less in place it hidden when made into a sofa, check out the ikea karlstad sofa bed. It's extremely comfortable and is an ingenious design which does just what you are suggesting, the arms are removable as well which makes it very versatile with building in.

Thanks for looking into my design ideas. Yes, the 22 has a lot of room for the weight. The adventure of retrofitting plumbing is a negative for me. I think the customization can be kept more affordable by taking the 20 and making only furniture changes.

I recently spent some time at IKEA looking at their sofa beds. The Karlstad iis attractive, but too wide to fit into the 7'7" width. The BRIMNES is a bit closer to the mark. The problems are: those curved walls will interfere; it opens to a full (two twins) so a bit too wide albeit in an ingenious interleaved slat way, keeping the platform at one level. It figures to be heavy compared to the built-in platform bed.. Adapting it might be more trouble than it is worth. (I remember such a remark by SmokelessJoe.)

For those reasons, I thought up a poor-man's solution requiring only (!) modification of the bed platform to turn it into a convertible by cutting 18" width off the platform, moving back the storage doors 18", and hinging the 18" board so it either hangs down or folds back under the seat. The remaining design issue is the extension support, tbd.
Perhaps the original support can be adapted.

On another topic, I asked in the Floor Forum how to know if OSB was used in the subfloor.

Thanks for the ideas.
/myles

[BearScream]

Originally Posted by rmkrum

And, as a price point, ours was about $41,000 about 4 years ago from a dealer in Oregon. We're second owner, essentially. The Louisiana one's $34,000 price seems reasonable depending on its exact condition.

Guess so. I have tracked asking prices for the 20, so it seems in the ballpark.
OTOH the actual discount to selling price, if any, is opaque.

/myles

[Skatiero]

Ah, but the karlstad can be assembled without the arms, making it short enough to fit. I love the modular aspect. I'll have to check out the Brimmes. We put a fagelbo (an L no longer made) into our last Airstream and really loved it. We have owned a couple of slat - pullout styles from ikea, love the design. Check out the custom sofa bed we built for our 86 32' bunkhouse, that mechanism might suit you as well. Our thread is in the knowledge base under 1986 Excella bunkhouse.

[BearScream]

No arms? Well maybe, but the 20 is about 1/2' narrower in width than the 25 and bigger models and I don't want to lose too much under-bed storage.

I looked at some of your gallery pix. Huge coach with a family that requires it.
And nicely customized. Your needs are at the other end of the spectrum from mine though. Just me, small is beautiful, all that.

A 20 must look like a midget to you.

/myles