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Old 11-16-2006, 12:05 AM   #57
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Hi, I was in the tool business and as a general rule of thumb I made 40% profit. If I give you 10% discount, That's 25% of my profit. Operateing expenses [overhead] were figuered to be about 26% over all. So I get to live on 14% of the money if I sell everything at full list. I have had people offer me $60.00 or less per hundred dollars; That means they want me to sell to them at "0" profit or at a loss. "Take A Hike" For your rediculas offer is rude.
Hey, I have a great Idea; I will sell you any trailer you want for 25% off list price. [on a twenty year payment contract] In turn, I want you to teach at one of my local schools for the same time. [twenty years] for 25% less pay for you. Such a deal!!!!!!

I drove to three different Airstream dealers fairly close to me to deal, Face to Face, Eye to Eye, and did not get what I wanted. Although the rudest sales person actually offered us a really great deal. We declined, due to the fact he was playing games. Insinuated that the last counter offer from us would work and then bumped it up $750.00; We decided to walk and at that time he told us to leave. I don't think you really understand what rude is. Rude is not, not getting what you want.
I did E-mail George Sutton RV. Almost all of our transactions were done by E-mail. I never met my assigned sales person. And it was two years later before I met George Sutton in person. I got a really great deal and it was not all just the bottom dollar. It was the whole process from start to finish, advise, through several E-mails, and the actual ordering of exactly what trailer and options we wanted. It was a two day drive from my home to pick up my trailer.
Do I type perfect? No. Do I have an excuse? Yes, sort-of. I took printing in school any since the Line-a-type and the Inter-type machines had a different key board than a type writer, we were told Not to take typeing classes.

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In some situations, that apply, My mom used to say: "LOOK IN A MIRROR"
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Old 11-16-2006, 08:04 AM   #58
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Thanks, lynnhughes, for initiating a timely and fascinating discussion.
As I’m about to go shopping for my first Airstream…
After I recover from my right eye cataract surgery this morning.
Your thread and my surgery are eye-opening experiences…
Looks like attitude on both sides is a very important factor…
For success!
Bill
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Old 11-16-2006, 08:39 AM   #59
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Old 11-17-2006, 12:57 PM   #60
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Exclamation Hi Lynn

Quote:
Originally Posted by lynnhughes
Hi
I'm new to this forum. Found you by looking for help with a dealership.
I had sent them an email inquiring about buying their 75th Anniversary Edition.
This was the email they sent me: (I've taken out the names to be kind)

I am ------the Internet Sales Director. I was looking over this email and would like to add a couple things. We would love to have your business! However I just don't like to throw numbers out and I might not even be close to what another dealer is at and so would never hear from you again. It may sound like i am playing games but i assure you i am not. I am simply trying to earn your business. What kinda Figures are you getting from other dealers so i can make a Competitive Offer to you? If you don't mind answering that simple question i would be glad to give you a number to try and earn your business. All i ask is that i get 1 chance before you make a purchase. I Will Not lose a deal to price if we are talking same trailer options etc.. Thank your for your Time and Email I hope you give me a chance to make you part of the ----------.

I responded with an email that commented on the grammer used (I was a teacher) and made an offer.
This is how they reacted:

Thanks for the insult, makes me wonder how professional of a customer you are. If someone is (smart) enough to sell it to you for that, run do not walk but run down and buy it, while your at it pick me up one also. Thanks for the offer. Good luck and i hope you enjoy your new trailer.

Is this normal with emails now? I simply was floored by the way I was treated. I don't know weither I want to cry or am just burning mad.

Has anyone else been treated this way??????
Hi Lynn

My name is David Winick. I clicked on Airstream Forums today and read your initial and subsequent posts. Those detailing your experience trying obtain pricing information regarding the trailer you were interested in. I designed this trailer and bristled when I read about your experience.
I'm sorry that this happened and hope that this doesn't deter your efforts. If there is anything I may do to assist, please reply.

Ps. Please don't grade my grammar. Thanks in advance

-David


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www.vintagetrailering.com
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Old 11-17-2006, 01:27 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwinick
Hi Lynn

My name is David Winick. I clicked on Airstream Forums today and read your initial and subsequent posts. Those detailing your experience trying obtain pricing information regarding the trailer you were interested in. I designed this trailer and bristled when I read about your experience.
I'm sorry that this happened and hope that this doesn't deter your efforts. If there is anything I may do to assist, please reply.

Ps. Please don't grade my grammar. Thanks in advance

-David


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A moment of silence please and bow your heads,we are in the presence of royalty.
David,I think it is great you monitor the forums and get feedback from the users and potential users of the product.
It's easy to tell you are proud of your work.
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Old 11-17-2006, 01:46 PM   #62
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Great Work

Quote:
Originally Posted by streamer23
A moment of silence please and bow your heads,we are in the presence of royalty.
David,I think it is great you moniter the forums and get feedback from the users and potential users of the product.
It's easy to tell you are proud of your work.
David, I am proud of your work, so proud I wish I owned some. Keep the trailers coming.

Thanks Jim
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Old 11-17-2006, 09:39 PM   #63
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I'm floored again for all the good reasons

Hello David,
First, I'm honored. Second, I promise never to correct anyone's grammer again. Really, I swear!
Third, you created an amazing piece of art with your Airstream, thank you.

I believe I've found a wonder dealership and hope to own one soon. I've learned that a great deal is not a cheap deal, but one that is fair to all. An Airstream and I both deserve that respect.
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Old 11-17-2006, 09:48 PM   #64
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Lynn, come to the Florida get-together for your shake down road trip.

Jim
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Old 11-17-2006, 10:16 PM   #65
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Lynn,
Glad to see you didn't get hammered down with all the posts, glad you found a dealer you can deal with. Good luck in the hunt!
Dave
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Old 11-27-2006, 01:05 PM   #66
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My compliments to David as well, for his restorations, his designs and his professional approach to business dealings...

Lynn- I hope you have found a successful relationship with a dealer you can have a positive relationship with...

While car dealerships are fun to poke at, we should all remember that the majority of professional sports teams are owned by folks who became wealthy owning automobile dealerships.. A large dealership today is a business worth between $200 Million and $400 Million. They can only be worth that much because the offer the buyers a return on investment... Selling cars at "invoice" won't generate the necessary return if that were the real cost of the cars.. So here are a few pieces of data to ease the minds that dealerships are on the brink of bankruptcy...

1. They pay less than invoice.. Often a lot less... Once invoices got published, they worked with manufacturers for rebates, holdbacks, incremental incentives tied to buyer satisfaction surveys, etc..
2. They make a LOT of money in the service department, both on warranty work and paid repairs.
3. They make a LOT of money on parts sales...
4. They make a LOT of money on used car sales, where invoices don't exist, and buyers aren't aware that dealers make up Kelley BlueBook numbers over coffee and donuts each month... (And there are 4 KBB prices for the same car, depending on your access)
5. They rely on a mix of Customers.. For every educated and sophisticated buyer who arrives in person informed and prepared to create the aura of competition, another buyer might wander in, fall in love with the silver one, and pay a price higher than MSRP because the dealer typed up a second little sticker and glued it to the window...

Back to the Airstream dealers... If you owned a dealership, and sold 24 Airstream trailers a year and made $2000 profit on each one, how long before you were in bankruptcy??? How about $3000 profit??? The point is that Airstream dealers rely on mix of income streams also, to pay sales, service and admin personnel, rent and utilities and fund inventory... Learn what you can about how they run their business, and make educated choices about what is or isn't a good deal for you. And dealers should be willing to politely say "I'm sorry, that deal isn't one I'm prepared to make..." and let it go, with no hard feelings.
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Old 11-27-2006, 04:03 PM   #67
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Condoluminum,
I agree and disagree. I agree that a dealer, whether new cars, used cars, or Airstreams should make a decent profit. But at the same time when I purchase one of these items it is with my money and I am not about to relenquish control of my bank account to the dealer. I will maintain control of my bank account and control of the deal. I have done this with nearly every new automobile I have bought in the last 15 years. First using Consumer Reports pricing guides and, after comparing them to on-line guides, I stuck to the on-line guides. The dealer will just have to trust me to be fair to him/her or not do business with me if I'm not being fair. So far, they've all agreed to do business with me. I understand about dealer hold backs and various other dealer incentives including dealer rebates, sales quota discounts off of dealer invoices, and the infamous "dealer retains all rebates", etc. I agree with your first two paragraphs, too.

However, I disagree with your third paragraph since many of the auto dealerships here in my community of metro-Atlanta are owned by professional athletes and the professional sports teams are owned by media conglomerates or home improvement chain tycoons (Time-Warner owns most of them and one of the original founders of Home Depot owns the Falcons).

I also disagree with your paragraph numbered #4. Where do you get this information? What is your source? Is it pure conjecture?

Several years ago my wife had an automobile accident. The claims adjuster insisted on throwing out Kelly Blue Book, NADA, and other used car pricing guides and using the value found in some off-the-wall valuation guide I'd never heard of. The value was about $400 less than the others were across the board. I was later told by an insurance agent that the one that the adjuster used was a co-op formed by the insurance companies in my state. Two years later I received an unsolicitied settlement check from an attorney as my share of a class action law suite against the insurance companies doing business in my state that used that valuation guide to settle claims and the guide itself for fraud. I would think if what you are saying is true and could be substantiated, the FTC would sue those other guides for fraud and we'd hear about it in the news like we heard about the law suit against MicroSoft a few years ago.
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Old 11-27-2006, 05:54 PM   #68
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Wow... Another nerve apparently touched... Not sure exactly where disagreements lie... Let me try a few responses..

While athletes own some dealerships (from John Elway in Denver to Ronnie Lott here in California) the big ones are often owned by very wealthy people, who also own entire teams.. Think Wayne Huizinga (Miami - AutoNation) and Cincinnatti Reds (Marge Schott) and even baseball commissioner (sic) Bud Selig... Denver Bronco's also owned by car dealer.. Many more, if you cover baseball, football and basketball plus hockey.. My point simply was that successful car dealers become multi-millionaires, and not from the $500 profit we think they might miake on a single car sale..

As for Kelley Blue Book, info was first hand from dealer who participated in quarterly price-setting meetings for Calif area.. Dealers asked to meet and "provide info on selling prices for certain benchmark models" and Kelley staff would then document and publish results. Originally done for banks and finance companies to establish lending limits, and dealers could shift sale prices up or down, since public not relying on data. They also included new "invoice" data to help facilitate new car loans. Once buyers got access, invoice became meaningless, and dealers began using Kelley numbers as way to "legitimize" their asking prices.. The four levels refer specifically to the ones you have access to as either buyer or seller on website, and the ones dealers have access to as paid subscribers. Try separate log-ons for same car as buyer or seller and notice the differences you get back as to value... Most dealers rely now on auction listings to show what cars are worth wholesale, and then add their own markups to those numbers, which we have hard time getting our hands on also.. Kelley decided to try and make money selling their "Consumer Edition" bluebooks (different data than banks..) and then opened up website funded with advertising and links..

Whether someone might sue them for fraud is interesting question. Consumers would have to show how they were harmed. Paying more for one used car or getting less for trade-in would be hard to make into class action.. Edmunds used to cause more problems by publishing "holdback" data, but dealership group bought them out and stopped the practice... Now that data is harder to find.

Finally, I am certainly not advocating relinquishing control of your wallet to buy a car or truck or anything else.. I give classes on car buying, and urge people to pay as little as they can.. My point about making "good deal" was that not everyone knows how good a deal they're getting or demanding, and they should try to be educated and knowledgable, rather than merely demanding.. One favorite exercise is to ask how a buyer would feel buying a new truck for "Dealer Invoice"? After they've answered, ask the same question, beginning with "Given the average buyer pays $1,000 less than Dealer Invoice, how would you feel...?" For most people, their deal satisfaction is anchored in some external data source to decide how good a deal they made. That data is not always accurate. Until 2002, Saturn had the highest buyer satisfaction rating of any brand in America, relying on the sales policy: "You may be paying too much for the privilege of not having to negotiate, but none of your friends will ever embarrass you by declaring that they paid less!!"

If you haven't gotten up to threaten to walk out of a dealership, or they haven't declined your best and final offer at least once, you may still be in a negotiation... If that is painful or stressful, then use the online services or buying websites or Consumer Reports, etc.. The stress levels will be lower..

John McG
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Old 11-27-2006, 06:36 PM   #69
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No nerve hit. But anytime someone throws out unsubstantiated claims of information I will call them on it. And they should expect to be called on it by someone. While I am well aware that dealers are surveyed for their used car selling prices (this is why the price varies by zip code and not the same everywhere in the country) I would hardly say that they are set over dounuts and coffee; that is an over simplification and if a dealer told you that's how it's done he was being dramatic.

Again, if the figures in the various buying guides were just made up numbers, the authors of such guides would in deed be brought before the US Supreme Court for price fixing and fraud by the US Attorney General. I commend you on your efforts to educate consumers and assist them in not being taken advantage of by the few unscrupulous dealers that have given the auto industry a black eye in our country.

I've always thought that it is odd that in most countries the price of everything is negotiable except the price of new cars and in our country about the only thing except real estate that is negotiable is the price of new automobiles. In Germany, for example, new car show rooms have one of each model for you to look at and test drive and you pick out the model based on that single unit and then select all of the options, colors and interior upholstery from a catalog and then order your car custom made...all car sales are custom orders. In our country almost all auto sales are from dealer's inventory. Different strokes for different folks.
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