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Old 06-13-2012, 01:45 PM   #57
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I'm wondering if a 2 part epoxy or floor glue? Also could you get condensation between the wood and metal?
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Old 06-13-2012, 03:23 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keithgrowe View Post
I'm wondering if a 2 part epoxy or floor glue? Also could you get condensation between the wood and metal?
You'd need a glue that bonds well to both wood and aluminum. Then make sure there are no spaces between the two where water can get in. The bonds would have to stand up to temp extremes and not rip apart under stresses of the road. But the edges, if untreated, may absorb water.

Condensation on the outer surface is what I mean—a closed trailer with showering and cooking and a cold day outside will get condensation on the windows inside and eventually the aluminum inner skin or other metal surfaces. I'd expect the same on a metal floor; maybe it would be slippery too.

Looks like a lot to go through to get a cold aluminum floor. And it will scratch easily. Lighting that reflects in it may be harsh as it bounces upward toward your eyes.

Interesting idea (aluminum clad plywood), but too many issues to pursue I think.

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Old 06-13-2012, 09:30 PM   #59
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If you take 3/4" or 5/8" plywood (that already has a low perm rating of 0.2) and put bedliner on one side and some good paint on the other side and the edges you have just made yourself an essentially vapor impermeable material. The paint side is probably more permeable than the bedliner side so drying will occur into your trailer. Remember, too, that plywood is not just wood, but a bunch of glue, too. I would argue that points made about other materials being impermeable (to water vapor) are valid BUT your coated plywood is too.

Now, drill a bunch of holes in your plywood to fasten it down and install your stuff and try as you will to seal all of the edges up, LIQUID water will be able to get in when it (inevitably) hits your plywood. Now, that water likes to spread out through the wood fibers. It only has that tiny hole it came in through to get back out. Not good.

Put a scrap of your plywood out on the yard. Wait for rain. Watch the wet plywood curl up. These forces will be acting on your trailer when your floor (inevitably) gets wet. One good thing about plywood versus particle boards or chip board is that it can dry out because of the continuous wood fibers. Wait for sun and it will take back its shape.

Using the principles of home construction, your trailer floor is inside the conditioned space as the floor insulation is under it. It should take on the temperature of the inside and should be no more likely to have condensation on it than the walls, etc. When the water vapor (humidity) is high in the trailer after a night of cooking and sleeping with the windows closed to try to stay warm, it is colder outside than in, and the dew point is reached on interior surfaces, condensation will occur.

In houses, air exchangers are now required. Houses are built very tightly and do not breathe well. Airstream inside is essentially impermeable to vapor and can't dry out. An air exchanger in your Airstream would be a somewhat better solution to high inside humidity than opening your windows and running the fan because you get to keep some of your heat.

Google RV air exchanger and viola!, there is at least one out there!

Air-Port Fresh Air Exchanger Air-Port Fresh Air Exchanger [771001] - $375.00 : UVS, Parts Store

Searched a bunch of terms on Airforums for this and came up empty.

Anyone have one?

I still want a floor that has no wood. Checked out the honeycomb core materials, nice.

Waiting for round 2 of questions to Nyloboard to come back.
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Old 06-14-2012, 10:18 AM   #60
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Excellent post Bunk'. While I agree the trailer has conditioned air inside, that's only when camping and stationary. Traveling down the road or sitting in the driveway, temps can be below 0˚ F, or well over 100˚ F. That creates other problems not usually seen in houses.

But the air exchanger sounds like a great idea. For a while I have been suggesting on a few threads that if cars can have flow-through ventilation, why not Airstreams to prevent excessive heat? An air exchanger could do that too. I like things that serve two purposes. Excessive heat is bad for food and for all those meds seniors take (like me).

Where to put it and finding a vent cover for the exterior would be a challenge. But nothing is insurmountable.

I still like wood for a subfloor, and hope I never have to replace it. When I read about floors rotting out in trailers only a few years old, I don't feel good. Ours is good where I have exposed it, but the bedroom still has to be checked out.

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Old 06-14-2012, 10:50 AM   #61
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TonyS posted a series of YouTube videos showing a shell-off where 1/2" PolyEthylene sheet is used.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f36/...ork-92479.html

The video references polymax sheet polyethylene:

PolyMax Board 1/2" x 48" x 96" - FarmTek

4' x 8' x 1/2"thick is $151.97 and weighs 74 lbs. per sheet. $120 to ship 8 sheets to me in MN.

FarmTek
1440 Field of Dreams Way
Dyersville, IA 52040
USA

This is HDPE which was one option considered before.

We will have to watch for an updated YouTube video from this guy.
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Old 06-14-2012, 11:12 AM   #62
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Bunk, mechanical air exchangers work well but also have problems. In the mid 80's lots of wood frame condos were built in Seattle and covered with Drivit an elastomeric material that is water proof. The buildings were built very tight in an attempt to conserve energy.

The buildings were attractive and sold well and were soon fully occupied. After about 6 months people began getting sick and some inside air monitoring was done and it was found that the mold and other airborn bacteria and allergens were off the charts.

A fix was thought to be outside to inside air exchangers. We looked at bidding this but declined for whatever reason I can't remember. Anyway the exchangers were installed and all was thought to be well. It turns out the exchangers were creating a very slight negative atmosphere in the buildings and when it would rain (Seattle) it would pull water in around every opening where the Drivit had been inproperly installed etc. The wood framing in these buildings deteriorated quickly and within a period of two years, the buildings were condemed and the lawsuits are still flying.

Drivit has since lost much of it's appeal in this market.

We need to consider healthy atmospheres along with energy usage as alternatives to sealing people up in plastic.

One of the last building systems I designed was the Coast Guard Headquarters on Alaskan Way in Seattle. We were told to make the building efficent but more importantly safe. When we were done the building was certified to LEED silver standards.

As energy consumption became a primary focus of design in the last two decades we have created some very unhealthy in fact toxic buildings. There needs to be a balance. Windows in large office buildings need to be able to have sash that can be opened on warm days. Naturally occuring air exchanges need to be introduced into building design. Lets bring back air shafts.

This started out to be a post about a large roll of commercial linolium I have out in my garage that I am going to template and install over the cheap ass woodgrain vinyl thats in there now but your post sidetracked me
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Old 06-14-2012, 12:00 PM   #63
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Dan, a heat (air) exchanger is workable I think, just not the one in those buildings. Keeping the pressure balanced is tricky, but can be done. The RV one Bunk' found may or may not be a solution. I think the science of this has advanced in the last quarter century. I do like windows that open. With a good ventilation system, fewer windows that open would be needed and that might save money to make up for the heat exchanger.

Why not rip out the "cheap ass vinyl", seal the subfloor and then use the linoleum?

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Old 06-14-2012, 12:40 PM   #64
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Gene, good thought. I probably will rip it out. Thats a project for next winter. The condos I referred to were multistory and had lots of surface area with little or no overhangs. I am beginning to question design based purely on energy conservation. It's not working. People are getting sick and mold contamination and remediation in hospitals is becoming a huge issue. There are no easy answers. ABS is much less brittle than PVC. The off gassing may be a problem though along with fatigue from UV rays. I thought the wood floor was sealed. Is it just raw plywood under the vinyl?
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Old 06-14-2012, 12:58 PM   #65
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Yes it is raw, assuming no change between 2007 and 2012. The photos I've seen of what they are using now show a raw plywood. They are using "water and boil proof bonding adhesive". It is called Sturdi-Floor.

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Old 06-14-2012, 01:20 PM   #66
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Ya know Gene, if I did a good job with a sharp razor knife I bet I could cut out the vinyl and use it as a template for the linolium. I could also as you stated seal the floor with some spar varnish. I wonder if you can still get that stuff. Thats what the old fisherman used on the boats. I also remember behind the sheds we had vats of creosote and they soaked virtually everything that went into a boat in this solution. I wonder if anybody ever used it on a trailer floor. There are old pilings in front of my house that were soaked in creosote that are probably one hundred years old. Still functional and solid. The state would like them to go away but can't legally burden me with the clean up.. I told them they could take them if they wanted to and haven't heard from them since.

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Old 06-14-2012, 01:52 PM   #67
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I started a thread about air exchangers in Airstreams:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f427...ml#post1161145

Some action and opinions there already.

When installed and used properly, air-to-air exchange should not create negative interior pressure. Furthermore, as soon as you open the door, pressure would be balanced. They are required in homes by code in most places as well.

Back to the aluminum/plywood sandwich. I guess this is really a discussion about how to best waterproof a piece of plywood for your floor. Paint, bedliner, aluminum sheet, exterior grade finishes, vinyl, fiberglass and plastic have all been mentioned. At the end of it all, each surface has its list of advantages and dis-advantages (maybe another thread topic?).

I sincerely hope that those of you who have employed one of these methods have yourselves a 50 year floor! The technology has improved a lot in the 20-30+ years the original floors went in.

But, it is still plywood. I want an alternative to plywood that meets the 10 criteria as well as possible. The HDPE floor on the YouTube video looks great to me.
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Old 06-14-2012, 02:05 PM   #68
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Dan, I used spar urethane, not spar varnish. I think "varnish" is a general term encompassing many surface treatments. Spar urethane is more specific and easy to find at big box stores.

Isn't creosote toxic? Perhaps those pilings are still off gassing and causing you brain damage? First symptoms are excessive posting on Forums followed by hanging out at the library and harassing to junior high school girls. Have yourself committed before it is too late.

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Old 06-14-2012, 02:59 PM   #69
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Another source for HDPE (and other plastic) panels. Looks like they have 60"X145" X 1/2" thick on sale for $205 ($3.41/sf).

The Cutting Board Factory: PolymerSheet.com


The sheet vinyl is sealing the plywood as well or better than any paint or varnish will from liquid water and water vapor that comes from the top only. The edges and bottom are still exposed and likely unsealed. Having a complete vapor barrier on one side and none on the others limits drying to the edges and bottom which are the least effective routes as they are covered by aluminum and insulation.


Real linoleum is more permeable than vinyl but not significantly and the edges and bottom of your floor are still the path of least resistance for drying. That being stated, linoleum is somewhat better than vinyl. Exposing the raw wood or coating or covering it with something that is highly permeable to allow for drying would be best if you want to preserve your floor. This way, moisture that gets into the plywood will be able to move toward dryer areas and vaporize.

Permeability: The time rate of water vapor transmission through unit area of a material of unit thickness induced by unit vapor pressure difference between its two surfaces. In Inch/Pond units, permeability is given as "perm," where one perm equals a transmission rate of 1 grain of water per hour for each square foot of area per inch of mercury (gr/h•ft•in.Hg).
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Old 06-14-2012, 06:28 PM   #70
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Don't you love these rationalization threads...just do it.

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