The quest for a new stainless steel frame

[boatdoc]

Originally Posted by Silverhobby

Boatdoc, I am really enjoying the progress on your frame. You have some great knowledge and ideas and I thank you for sharing them. Keep us posted...

Hi Silverhobby; Because of a change in our work scheduling on the 25th, due to delayed delivery of engines, we were able to jack up the shell, four cinder blocks high and because of my welded in SS fenders, we were unable to get the trailer under the shell without totally flattening the tires. Shell now is sitting on new frame and floor with the old floor still in it. Next, [hopefully next week] we will start removing lower section of inner skins and brace the ribs. After roof vents are out we will hoist the shell and remove the old floor and transfer floor mounting trim to the new floor. Once that is done, the shell will be bolted with 1/4-20 SS bolts to the new frame. Rest of the skins will be removed and three strips of 1/2"x 2" rigid urethane will be glued onto inside of outer shell between each rib to provide mounting surface and air the space on both sides of the Prodex. All edges of Prodex will be sealed with 3M 4200 adhesive. Wiring will run on top of Prodex. Change of plans took place with plumbing, because I decided that it would be too difficult to locate openings properly in the floor. Because I want them to be as small as possible with just enough clearance for a lip seal, I have postponed the plumbing process until the appliances are located in their proper place. I hate working upside down but I guess I have no choice if I wanted it done perfect. AS soon as more progress is made I will post more Pics. Thanks "Boatdoc"

[Fyrzowt]

Thanks BoatDoc, interesting reading.

[boatdoc]

Originally Posted by Fyrzowt

Thanks BoatDoc, interesting reading.

Hi Fryzowt; Last Saturday being caught up with work at the business, we hooked up to my Kubota our new SS frame on which the shell was sitting with the old floor still attached, and brought it into the shop bay. Monday, me and my wife rolled up our sleeves and went to work removing the inner skins, wiring and remainder of old plumbing. My wife armed with a drill attacked the rivets while I attempted to remove rusted away screws which were attaching the plywood to the floor channel. Lag bolts attaching the channel to the old frame were half rusted away, which I have previously cut off from the frame, popped out easily being rusted away. As my wife removed some smaller sections of inner skins and catalog them for future reference, it became obvious to us that IT IS possible for one company to create more than fifty technological sins while building it. By the time we have removed all interior skins leaving the inner end caps alone, it was not hard to believe the crappy workmanship. Many rivets did not go trough the ribs and were ball peened between outer skin and ribs. The front and rear vertical steel mounting plates half rusted away by not being sealed, causing serious damage to aluminum. Rear attaching vertical cross plate just forward of storage box was completely gone along with aluminum part of the outer shell touching it. Section four inches high SS plate had to be rivited to replace it. Outside paint was the only thing that held corroded aluminum skin together. Horizontal ribs which support the inner skin are not facing same direction, some up some down. Steel back up plates that hold the floor channel down to the frame, rotted away along with bolts. Wiring inside looked as some amateur who had no idea what he was doing, decided to play a electrician. Who were those people? Was there ever a standard introduced in building it? Were those people all dyslexic and could not figure which end is up? They sure could have used someone who could think and put forth a logic to it all. This sure makes me fiery mad. After all of the inner skins were removed I have braced the ribs inside to prevent shell from collapsing while being hoisted up. We have used a pipe and hoists hooked up through the vent openings. Lifting the shell, my rib braces all fell out. We have dropped the old floor and removed all floor channel from it. With the shell hanging over night there was no sign of collapse. The shell actually opened out in the middle. Yesterday, [Tuesday] we have straighten out all bottom edges of outer skin as well as the floor channel. Previously I have copied and made a template of the front floor and assumed that the rear was identical in curvature. I was wrong. Lowering the shell onto new floor we discovered another factory technological sin. Most likely I will need to remove my C trim encapsulating the edge of the floor with 3M 5200 sealing it, and re cut the floor curvature. Fun never stops, so that is my project for today. We have a freezing rain today and I have asked my wife and employees to stay home.
My progress today may not be so good. As I get the inside insulated and wired I will post some pics. Thanks, "Boatdoc"

AS I have previously stated; Sometimes we are the doggie, rest of the times we are the fire hydrant.

[Aerowood]

I too was surprised to see the poor quality of workmanship when I removed all the inner skin. It looked like alot of the stringers were cut to length using either a meat cleaver or a hand ax. Many rivets were in the radius or no ED or missing the stringers and frames completly. I was also surprised to see no stringers supporting the skin laps and the complete failure of attaching the frames to the stringers and lower C channel. There is also no fayed surface seal between the skin laps, just fillet seals along the edges of the inside only. I too ran into the fwd mount that was not primed or sealed and the fwd skin will need to be replaced do to it. Are you seeing the same things that I'm seeing? I envy you to be able to work on your Argosy during the winter months. I still have not been able to talk my boss to letting me park my Globetrotter in the hanger to start replacing the skins that need changeing.

[markdoane]

I was disappointed with the constuction quality of my '59, but it was nowhere near that bad.

I found a few places where the rivets missed a stringer. All the skin seams were backed by stringers, except the end cap segment seams.

I do agree with the meat cleaver comment.

[Aerowood]

I think all the rivets on mine were bucked with the serated head of the framing ax that was used to cut all of the structural components to final size

[markdoane]

That's better than the sharp end of a cold chisel.

[Aerowood]

This is what it looks like

[LI Pets]

I didn't see any gross errors in workmanship on mine, maybe it wasn't built on Friday

[Fyrzowt]

AS I have previously stated; Sometimes we are the doggie, rest of the times we are the fire hydrant.

Thanks for the update, looks like you've been the hydrant lately..

[boatdoc]

Progress report; On March 14th number of members of the local PD came out to help out as a thank you gesture for donating my work in the past to them by building a SWAT van. Time was to install inner skins, and what a great help just holding them up while I rivited them in place. I felt so pushed by the help that I forgotten to install a specially molded [flattened] sink vent pipe into the wall. While I was very happy with progress on that day, on Friday morning returning to finish some riveting I have felt so stupid, that it took me a day to disclose it to my wife. There I was drilling all the rivets except last two rows in the ceiling. It took me most of Saturday to finish correcting my mistake. Had some problems with window gaskets as well. Glue stuck very well to cleaned aluminum window frames but it was peeling clean off the rubber gasket. We have wound up removing them, clean the glue and sand the gluing surfaces of the gasket with 80 grit sand paper. Now the glue stuck very well.

The multi cracked taillight panel was repaired with Devcon primed with 3M adhesive promoter and finish painted to original appearance. Found at NAPA a identical direct replacement license plate iluminator, made by Signal-Stat #435. All window frames were cleaned and polished. All three vents repainted and new gaskets were installed. All white plastic window adjusters were replaced with black UV resistant adjusters. All beauty rings for windows and vents were straightened, glass beaded and painted.

My SS fender wells were sealed with urethane 6 lbs density rigid foam since there will be no chance of having any vibrations with welded in SS fenders.

All wiring is in proper place. All clearance lights will be replaced with identical size and shape LED's. Since my brake light lenses are Fresnel lenses I have purchased a LED replacement for #1157 bulb and they appear to be very bright. As soon as the miserable winter gives us a break, a SS battery box for two Group 29 batteries will be built and installed. Problem is that my 8' brake is sitting outside and covered, so I will do other work until then. Today Sunday we are going to Lowe's to see about the paint for the interior. Most likely it will be a Perma-White by Zinsser, which is mold and mildew proof. Color, most likely a Sea Foam Green, it is my wife's choice since she will be the interior decorator and she has good eye for such.

My question to all of you is; Can the paneling inside be painted successfully having a thin layer of vinyl covering it. If so, this would cut out a lot of work and expense for us. I wonder if good marine monopoxy would do the job? Has anyone have done it? What will it do to the vinyl? Will it blister it and will it stick? Pic's coming soon. Thanks, "Boatdoc"

[SmokelessJoe]

Boatdoc:

You can paint the vinyl clad aluminum panels easily. I don’t know about other products but this is what I did with perfect results:

First wash down the walls very well. Prep is everything. I tried several types of cleaners and found a spray called KRUD KUTTER superior to everything. I also washed everything down with TSP.

I used TWO coats of KILZ primer.

For the majority of the trailer I used a Benjamin Moore wall paint, oil based and FLAT. Beautiful results.

Same thing with the bath area. There I used a two-component coating by POR 15 called WhiteCoat. The white finish is as hard and brilliant as porcelain.

I applied the flat oil with those little foam rollers originally called “ German rollers”. They produce a lovely finish that looks like it was sprayed.

I used these rollers for the POR 15 too, having first asked the supplier about it. The paint reacted with the roller and ruined the job.

We had to sand the whole thing down with 400 grit paper and redo it with a brush.

POR 15 paid for the replacement paint.

Sergei

[boatdoc]

Pictorial show of progress 1973 26' Argosy.

[Aerowood]

Coooooool!!!! Looking goood

[alumibum]

Fantastic info and pics! Beautiful!

[mikeberish]

Boatdoc,

A couple of questions:
* How did you fasten the deck to the frame? I see a row of fasteners but can't tell if they are carriage bolts or what. Do they fasten to the main frame tubes or just to the cross memeber pieces?
* Since you have obviously done this project without cost in mind, what is the advantage of the aluminum coated plywood over the aluminum honeycomb panels on the market? I have found the aluminum honeycomb panels for about $260 for a 4'x8' sheet, how much does the aluminum coated plywood go for?
* Do you have any thoughts on the suitablity of an extruded aluminum decking product being used for the floor?
* Your post says you used 0.90"x2" mastic tape to insulate contact between the frame and floor. Is that maybe .090" thick as nearly 1' thick doesn't seem right. Of course you are the engineer, so if 0.90" is right I'll go with it!

OK, I guess that is more than a couple of questions! I'm sure there will be more to come as I refurbish my '67 Tradewind. Looks like it is turning into a frame replacement.

Thanks for all your expertise you share in this forum. I got a kick out of all the AS junkies who were up at 4:00AM on Christmas day planning or working on their toys. I came across those posts at about 3:00AM this morning as I was planning my restoration. I actually wanted to go out and start drilling and cutting on my Tradewind but thought I was goofy for wanting to be out there at that hour. My wife would surely have me committed if I did that. Just to let you all know, based on your posts from Christmas, I have informed my wife that it is perfectly natural for someone to be up at all hours of the night working on an AS and not to be bothered if she finds me doing that one morning. Thanks guys, you made me feel normal!!!

thanks
Mike

[boatdoc]

Hi Mike; To answer your question first, in reality I am cost minded kind of guy. This is exactly why I did not contracted someone to do it for me. I have considered all of my options. Repairing the old frame would have added approximately 132 lbs of weight in order to return the frame to the original strength. Sandblasting is expensive. Welding onto previously rusted steel is not in my opinion a 100% fix. Moisture will cause rust in areas inaccessible with paint. Por 15 is expensive. In the end I would still have a frame that will rust. Here is the clue why I am not doing a overkill. I buy SS at $1.50/lbs.
Why in this world would I want to put out money for sandblasting repairing and painting where for almost same amount of repair time involved I can have a frame which will never rust without using a spoonful of paint. In addition a frame that has no parts welded to it in places where it just looked good to the person welding it originally. Having the equipment and facility to build a new one had a lot to do with my decision.

The floor is aluminum clad on both sides 1/2 Omega Panel. Floor is fastened with 1/4-20 SS flat head screws with frame being drilled and tapped. Screws were coated with blue removable Lock Tite. The frame contact area to aluminum clad ply was covered with .065" thick by 2" wide 3M Mastic tape
#3M Scotch 2228. Floor panels were joined with 1/16" wall aluminum H molding and sealed with 3M 5200 Marine adhesive. Edges of panels were trimmed with aluminum C molding and sealed with 5200. 1/2 panel ended up being 3/4" on edges. Cork flooring panels will be route red to accommodate the 1/16" H trim thickness in order not to telegraph through the cork floor covering.

Not all of us have the facility equipment or the knowledge to do what I am pursuing, but in my case it is the best choice. If you choose to do a new frame I can help you with details. Thanks, "Boatdoc"

[NorCal Bambi]

Boatdoc, this project is coming along great. There is nothing like the right tools and the space to use them. I only wish I was close by so I could have watched the progress of your project upclose. A picture is worth a thousand words, but being there is worth millions.
Don

[boatdoc]

Originally Posted by NorCal Bambi

Boatdoc, this project is coming along great. There is nothing like the right tools and the space to use them. I only wish I was close by so I could have watched the progress of your project upclose. A picture is worth a thousand words, but being there is worth millions.
Don

Hi Don; My project has slowed down because my business is into a full swing with oncoming boating season. I have not yet given up the idea of having it finished this year. My work space is now occupied by customers boats. Now, I have to come in three or four on the morning and do what I can inside the shop. Last week I just finished welding a 28 gallon aluminum Grey water tank. Yesterday, welding of a SS sealed and neoprene lined dual battery box was completed. My Arg had a single 24 Group battery box which was plastic and all cracked up. I have made a decision to move the hot water heater to the curb side just ahead of the tub, and use the heater access door for space for two Group 29 deep cycle batteries. Last Sunday in March I got lucky. My wife and I were antique shopping where I have spotted older commercial Singer sewing machine. Checking it out, turned out to be in like brand new condition under the ton of dust. No wear was noticed on any joints, so I asked what the price was. I was astonished when I heard $95.00. The whole thing weighs about 400 lbs, but it is in the shop cleaned oiled and working like new. Looking through large box of attachments, I was amazed how much accessories there was. About a hundred needles, bobbins and ton of new replacement wear parts. This will make a fabricating of our wrap around gaucho a snap. This morning about 6:00 Am I will be on my way to my favorite Scrap Yard to purchase some aluminum square tubing for a gaucho frame as well as for other interior components such as pull apart bed frame. This scrap yard buys production overruns and going out of business plants. Six acres of land and buildings where you can find anything under the sun.
At $1.50 per lbs they are my favorite supplier. Few weeks ago I have finished a new SS bumper, which is presently at the shop to have oval holes cut by CNC Plasma cutter to eliminate weight from it and provide space for snap in additional LED oval stop lights in the bumper. That way at least something gets done every day for as long as I keep chipping away at it. Sometime soon I will post some more pics of my efforts. Thanks, "Boatdoc"

[Silverflames]

Boatdoc, I was reading over you great thread, and wanted to see if you finished up? I love the idea of a SS frame!