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Old 01-16-2007, 05:52 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by chuck
not sure I follow the black tank...its going to be both below and above the floor...the portion above the floor, covered with a box? wouldn't that "raise" the height of the commode?
If I'm picturing this correctly, a big hole in the floor will be required so that the tank can protrude up through...how's that going to affect the structural strength of the floor?
Hi Chuck; Original set up had a 6" deep tank sitting on the floor. It was enclosed with a box on which sat the standard profile toilet. Step stool was needed to get on it, ridiculous idea. Yes, the tank enclosure will about four inches above floor, that is 4" lower than original. I have not decided yet but I may purchase a new low profile commode. Original commode looks new but I do not like the overall height.
Yes, the floor will have a cut out. Try to keep in mind my floor is a 1/2" plywood to which a 0.025" aluminum skin is bonded too on both sides, making it very stiff since aluminum sheeting cannot be stretched. The only flex you get is compression and stretch of wood core. 4' x 8' sheet supported at end on saw horses allows you to walk on top with very little give. My opening will will be finished with 1/2" x 1/2" SS angle frame encasing cut edge and underside with welded lightweight supports to frame at the four corners.
Thank you for your concern and trust me, there is no sacrifice in the integrity of my floor. Thanks, "Boatdoc"
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Old 01-16-2007, 07:06 AM   #30
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Boatdoc, great thread, keep posting your progress for us please. Question, do you have to treat your welds? Is welding the stainless as much of a pain as is aluminum? I wonder if the welds are a weak link regarding possible corrosion. One of the skills I've always wanted to learn is how to weld... that and learn to sew.
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Old 01-16-2007, 07:23 AM   #31
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I think you'll find this will come in weight wise a lot less than you think.

After gutting anf rebuilding mine it came in a certified scale at 4500 lbs add the tongue weight about 500, and I still will be adding another 400 lbs of stuff that's not yet installed. Say when all is done it will come in at 5500lbs.

I know someone who had the same model weighed at 6500lbs and another at 6700.

I think it's the difference of getting rid of wet insulation, wood, copper pipe, steel ducts, and adding back things that are made with lightweight in mind.

Like you into boats it goes hand and hand.


Question what are your plans for the interior layout and construction of cabinets beds etc?


.
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Old 01-16-2007, 07:34 AM   #32
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cutout...

Chuck - the orginal Argosy had a big hole in the floor by the black tank orginally - I don't think it makes any difference structually... and I'm sure it'll be sealed well by the 'doc.

Boatdoc - I'm wondering where do you find the neoprine skirts - sounds like a great idea - do you cut them yourself?

Any online classes on carbon fiber cabinets?
Marc
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Old 01-16-2007, 07:34 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenCoombe
Boatdoc, great thread, keep posting your progress for us please. Question, do you have to treat your welds? Is welding the stainless as much of a pain as is aluminum? I wonder if the welds are a weak link regarding possible corrosion. One of the skills I've always wanted to learn is how to weld... that and learn to sew.
Hi Glenn; Aluminum welding is by far most difficult. Welding stainles with TIG is relatively easy, you follow the rod. In aluminum welding you follow the torch with the rod, and alloy you weld must be identified, be exceptionally clean and pre heated. Type of rod you use must be properly selected.
It is very easy to overheat and crystallize the aluminum and on the other hand it is easy not to have proper penetration. Again with SS you have to watch temps, and joint area must be laid back to provide space for the weld. As to the weld corrosion, be sure you use proper grade of the rod, and make sure that you do not melt tungsten electrode onto the weld. Tungsten causes severe rust. Strength and quantity of welds must be correctly configured based on the applied working load with consideration for impact forces to which it will be exposed too. Thanks, "Boatdoc"
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Old 01-17-2007, 05:48 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LI Pets
I think you'll find this will come in weight wise a lot less than you think.

After gutting anf rebuilding mine it came in a certified scale at 4500 lbs add the tongue weight about 500, and I still will be adding another 400 lbs of stuff that's not yet installed. Say when all is done it will come in at 5500lbs.

I know someone who had the same model weighed at 6500lbs and another at 6700.

I think it's the difference of getting rid of wet insulation, wood, copper pipe, steel ducts, and adding back things that are made with lightweight in mind.

Like you into boats it goes hand and hand.

Question what are your plans for the interior layout and construction of cabinets beds etc?
.
Hey Lippets; Towing weight is not of utmost of a concern to us, as we have purchased brand new GMC Sierra 2500 SLE2 with everything under the sun except leather seats which we hate. As to the interior it will be all foam sandwiched carbon fiber with exception of 316 SS counter top. If you can picture waking into 26 Argosy to the right of the door, wrap around sectional gaucho will wrap around curved front window and will continue to about the line of left side of the door, where fridge is located. From the fridge overhead storage will be installed back to the bathroom area. Past the fridge on the same side[street] 2' wide dry cabinet will be installed matching a height of the fridge toped with carbon fiber counter top as one unit, fridge and cabinet. Past the fridge, pull out bed will be mounted. That will consist of aluminum welded frame. SS springs will be stretched via SS 3/32 wire which will have nicropressed loops connecting the springs forming a base. The two 32" wide frames will serve as base for the mattress. The pull out inboard frame will travel in a track on ball bearings. End of that track will have a drop in the outer end of it, so that when the frame is pulled out all the way it will match the level of stationary frame. Second mattress will then be dropped into retainers in the frame. For daytime, stacked mattresses will form additional resting area. With the bed set up there will be 22" walkway to the rear [bathroom]between the bed and the fender well on curbside. From the end of the gaucho and fridge, overhead cabinets will continue on the streetside all the way to the bathroom wall. Past the bed on floor level full height storage closet will be installed ending at bathroom wall connecting floor to overhead cabinetry. Street side of the bathroom, will contain a towel closet and all electrical equipment. Original idea of black tank was changed. New 24 gallon black tank will be inside the 6" frame to provide space for trap from tub. The toilet will then sit at 1" above the floor level. The tub, once in place, will have underside foamed in with poured rigid urethane foam to support the bottom of tub securely on the floor. Toilet will be in the center rear with a small single SS sink between the toilet and the street side. Coming back to the front from the bathroom wall [curb side] a continuing set of cabinets the width of fender well will continue 22" past the front of the fender well topped by continuous carbon top. At that point the counter top will gently curve to a wider section of counter top to match the width of 3 burner stove with the cabinet under the stove top, and to enclose gray water tank under the counter top. Stove will be just to the left of the doorway with double sink and counter top past the stove toward the back. Small section of overhead cabinetry and exhaust duct and fan will be installed above this area. It will end however before the line of bed to ensure easy passageway to the bathroom without ducking your head. Thanks for you inquires Lippets. " Boatdoc"
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Old 01-17-2007, 06:10 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Ms75Argosy
Chuck - the orginal Argosy had a big hole in the floor by the black tank orginally - I don't think it makes any difference structually... and I'm sure it'll be sealed well by the 'doc.

Boatdoc - I'm wondering where do you find the neoprine skirts - sounds like a great idea - do you cut them yourself?

Any online classes on carbon fiber cabinets?
Marc
Hi Marc; Neoprene seals are available at McMaster-Carr. Greatest source of gagetry in the whole world. In a catalog 110 the are on page 3473. Lip style flexible PVC are available from 1/8" ID to 4".
PS. My floor is new aluminum coated plywood. My cutout for the tank is 21" x 45". The 1.5" lip of the new tank will sit on top of the floor.
For the underside of the floor, a SS frame was made of welded 1x2" SS lightweight rectangular tubing matched to the size of a cutout will be thru-bolted from underneath the floor with #10 SS bolts with the 2" cross section vertically. 24"x48" plate on top of the tank, is of the same plywood material will sandwich the outer lip of the black tank between the floor and the SS frame from below. Rest assured my experiments do not come before the engineering process is final. Thanks for your confidence in my abilities Marc. "Boatdoc"
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Old 01-17-2007, 08:11 AM   #36
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For The Love of an Argosy

Boatdoc, I am really enjoying the progress on your frame. You have some great knowledge and ideas and I thank you for sharing them. Keep us posted...
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Old 01-17-2007, 09:43 AM   #37
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I have that bathroom, with the 6" black tank sitting on the floor; the comode is a low profile, and it works out to be "normal" toilet height. are you sure that regular profile comode was really "original"? maybe the PO was just really tall

is the black tank a "stock" model, or are you having it custom made? (if "stock"...have you got a part# so I can maybe get a look at a drawing from the manufacturer?)

so the framework around the hole in the floor makes up for any loss of strength from the big hole? could you get the same result from angle-iron and 3/4" plywood?
I'd like to expand my black tank capacity, and there's no room to do that above the floor; a tank that fits below the floor couldn't be all that much bigger, so the only other thing would be what you're describing. Since I'm not an engineer, nor do I play one on TV...but I do know how critical a sound floor is to the structure of the trailer, I'd be afraid of cutting out that much material so close to the back wall, as thats where the shell attaches.
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Old 01-17-2007, 05:23 PM   #38
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Hi Chuck; There is a problem for you at hand, copying what I am doing. First of all, if you sink a new larger tank into the floor you will reduce the ground clearance of the trailer, by the amount that will extend into the belly below the floor. Remember drain is at the lowest spot. My new frame is 6" not the original 5". My axles are new 5000 lbs with 3500 lbs suspension. I have plenty of clearance to come out below the frame with the 3" drain.
In addition to that I have installed two 4"x4" urethane skid rollers just ahead of the bumper. I would have to know how much clearance you got under the frame. If the torsion axles are sagging, you better abandon the idea. I would be most happy to guide you through your project, but I must have plenty of data to start. My tank is a street side discharge and it is 48" long. This leaves me just enough room to connect a short elbow at discharge. Opposite end just touches the tub. My frame reinforces the floor in excess of the requirement because it is large and my aluminum coated floor is very stiff.
My toilet is a high profile, and it was sitting on top of the 6" box which would require a small step stool for my wife to use it. I had to get it down on the floor or buy a new low profile one. Since this one appears to be very close to new, I want to reuse it. You could install the same tank as I have, and I could design a reinforcing frame which would not compromise the integrity of the floor, but yours would have to be different from mine. Let me know if you are willing to undertake such a project. Building all new offers you the ability to think things out and make things fit, but you have to work with what you have and improve on it. Believe me redesigning this stuff with a assurance that you will not make a mistake is not that simple. Some things require five cups of coffee. Thanks, "Boatdoc"
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Old 01-17-2007, 05:43 PM   #39
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Fantastic work

Great looking frame and should last till Airstream has their 1075th anniversary. When are you gonna put in the slideout, skyview dome, and hydraullic lift kit to elevate yourself above the rest of the TT's in the park?

I'm impressed with all that metal and only 93lbs heavier than the original.

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Old 01-20-2007, 09:46 AM   #40
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Great looking frame and should last till Airstream has their 1075th anniversary. When are you gonna put in the slideout, skyview dome, and hydraullic lift kit to elevate yourself above the rest of the TT's in the park?

I'm impressed with all that metal and only 93lbs heavier than the original.

Alt
Frame and floor is now ready for the shell. I will need to remove second plastic fender well from the shell, and jack the shell up so that new frame can be rolled under the shell and and placed with the old floor onto frame and brought into the shop. From that point a lower section of inner skins will be removed and ribs braced across. Old floor will be dropped once the shell is suspended from hoists. Side 2" retaining trim channel will be transfered onto new frame after which the shell will be permanently reattached. Removal of all inner skins will follow and insulating with Prodex will start. It is miserably cold and very windy here in Pa, so this may have to wait until winds subside.
Besides after last straight 34 hour shift I have pulled last Thursday and into Friday, I need a break. My wife mandates it anyway, and I accept it. Thanks "Boatdoc"
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Old 01-27-2007, 05:55 AM   #41
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Arrow Quest for new SS frame.

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Boatdoc, I am really enjoying the progress on your frame. You have some great knowledge and ideas and I thank you for sharing them. Keep us posted...
Hi Silverhobby; Because of a change in our work scheduling on the 25th, due to delayed delivery of engines, we were able to jack up the shell, four cinder blocks high and because of my welded in SS fenders, we were unable to get the trailer under the shell without totally flattening the tires. Shell now is sitting on new frame and floor with the old floor still in it. Next, [hopefully next week] we will start removing lower section of inner skins and brace the ribs. After roof vents are out we will hoist the shell and remove the old floor and transfer floor mounting trim to the new floor. Once that is done, the shell will be bolted with 1/4-20 SS bolts to the new frame. Rest of the skins will be removed and three strips of 1/2"x 2" rigid urethane will be glued onto inside of outer shell between each rib to provide mounting surface and air the space on both sides of the Prodex. All edges of Prodex will be sealed with 3M 4200 adhesive. Wiring will run on top of Prodex. Change of plans took place with plumbing, because I decided that it would be too difficult to locate openings properly in the floor. Because I want them to be as small as possible with just enough clearance for a lip seal, I have postponed the plumbing process until the appliances are located in their proper place. I hate working upside down but I guess I have no choice if I wanted it done perfect. AS soon as more progress is made I will post more Pics. Thanks "Boatdoc"
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Old 01-27-2007, 12:24 PM   #42
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Thanks BoatDoc, interesting reading.
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