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Old 01-15-2007, 03:27 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Gobie
Are you going to run SS brake line just in case you decide to use discs in the future? I would also like a conduit from the tongue to the 120 panel. You could run a gen set or inverter from the TV if you wanted to run air while towing. It looks really nice! Wow!
Hi Phil; Many of you think that disc brakes are the inn thing. I have opted for 2"x12" drum brakes and I have my reason for that which I rather not post because it will create a point of argument with some members. There is noting wrong with drum brakes providing you are not parking on the grass.
If you must, place 2'x8' sheet of plywood or a tarp under wheels. Dew is the enemy of brakes. We have experimented with it for years on two of my trailers with much success preventing greately reducing the brake component corrosion.
As for the conduit, it is already in place with 10Ga Marine shielded wire in place. All other wiring is inside a very thin wall conduit tack welded to the frame. All brake wires are in a SS conduit as well. Wherever wires cross the frame a 0.125" SS crossover tube is welded in on both sides of the frame so that integrity of the frame is not compromised. All 3/8" SS gas lines will be located under curbside outriggers with a one main shut off up front and one shut off for each appliance, accessible from outside. Drain cocks to the outside of belly pan on all plumbing lines, will be installed to ease the process of winterizing. Thank you, "Boatdoc"
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Old 01-15-2007, 03:55 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Foiled Again
I'm so impressed. This is going to be around in 100 years. If you EVER decide to sell it call me! PLEASE!

The only thing I'm not clear on is the furnace. Living in Virginia I hardly ever use mine, but when I did need it for 2 weeks earlier in the season I was appalled at how much propane it uses and how poor the quality of the heat is - talk about blowing hot and cold!

If I were as ambitious and capable as you, and rebuilding one from the ground up, I believe I'd try to build something with radiant heat coming up through the floor. I seem to remember seeing a thread where someone used a regular water heater, a circulating pump and homemade radiator or two. I believe that concept would also work with pex under the floor.

Anyway I'm just blown away with your frame. Great safety idea for the jack points, and the fans, and the mouseproofing. The extra depth should give it a bit more rigidity as well as lots of strength. How much will it weigh compared to the original?

Paula
Hi Paula; Most certainly one can get very creative with heating options, however today's heaters are lot more efficient than tey were in the past. There is minimal heat loss through the floor, especially when a air gap of 1" exists between Prodex and plywood floor. Try to bear in mind that in my case there will be no air exchange whatsoever between the belly pan and the interior. Each cable or plumbing entry will be 100% sealed. Shell will contain Prodex glued to 1/2" x2" urethane strips glued onto inside of the outer skin. Edges of Prodex will also be caulked with 3M 5200 thus creating total vapor barrier. According to my calculations even a small Gas Attwood heater will be more than sufficient. There is no reason for me to get carried away with heating. Where I want to get carried away, is the design of the interior and quality of workmanship on the entire project.

Thus far, my new frame is 93 lbs heavier than original. This however is not a issue because all interior will be carbon fiber foam filled. Lot of storage units will not be put back to leave the interior more open. Secondly I will be towing it with 2006 Sierra Crew Cab 2500 6.0 L gasser which can tow 9200 lbs.
I estimate that my Argosy should weigh about 4800 lbs empty, therefore I do not consider the weight much of an issue. Thanks for your input Paula. "Boatdoc"
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Old 01-15-2007, 04:16 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Paul NC
Doc, the plywood on the floor, isn't that sign substrate?
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Hi Paul NC; Floor is aluminum coated plywood made by Omega Panel Co.
We used it in replacement of structual interiors in Aluminum boats for past 10 years, where condensation rots our regular plywood in a matter of few years. But, it is of much importance to soak the open edge's with Git-Rot Epoxy prior to installation. Extra precaution is taken by trimming the edges with aluminum U Channel where bottom horizontal cross section is 1.1/4" and 1/2" on top.
3M 5200 adhesive is used between the sealed with Git Rot edge, and the aluminum trim, thus creating total vapor barrier. Any pre-drilled holes, are treated with Git Rot as well, before installing the fasteners. I am sure you are familiar with the rigidity of the product, right? Thanks "Boatdoc"
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Old 01-15-2007, 05:23 AM   #24
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Boatdoc, Great Innovations!

Boatdoc,
I am very impressed with how you applied your experience in the Boat Industry and common sense to solving many enduring airstream problems in the rebuilding of this Argosy. I think your willingness to share your innovations is especially commendable. We may not be able to invest the $ or time to get it as right as you have, but at least we know what the optimal solution looks like. I have recently moved my trailer from a gravel lot to hard stand based on your views on moisture effects. Thanks for that tip. Also I agree with many of your views on organizing the interior space. Gene
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Old 01-15-2007, 09:22 AM   #25
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So what's the plan IRT waste tanks? are they going to be "on the floor" inside, or suspended below/inside the framework? how's that going to tie in w/ all the complete sealing and no air exchange under there?
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Old 01-15-2007, 10:39 AM   #26
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So what's the plan IRT waste tanks? are they going to be "on the floor" inside, or suspended below/inside the framework? how's that going to tie in w/ all the complete sealing and no air exchange under there?
Hi Chuck; Gray tank will be above floor under the sink with sink trap in place. Gray tank will drain as washdown through shut off valve located near the black tank for rinsing purposes. While the entry from gray into black tank will not be on top of black tank, the black tank will be discharged first. Bathtub will also have a shallow trap under the floor inside the belly pan, and the drain pipe will be located just below the Prodex delivering gray water via in line macerating pump. The drain pipe will be brought up through the floor near gray tank and affixed near the top of the gray tank. Past the macerating pump, a check valve will be installed into discharge pipe from the tub, thus preventing back flush. Black tank is 8" deep and will be sunk into the belly pan aprox 5". Top of tank will be enclosed by a box 4" high, on which the toilet adopter will be mounted. This will lower the overall height of the standard height commode. All through floor connections, will have a neoprene flex seals of proper diameter with the outer skirt sealed with 3M 5200 adhesive, while close flexible inner lip will seal it to the outer diameter of the pipe. Macerating pump will work from a water pressure sensing switch, mounted past the shower valve. Pressure of water in that switch will turn the macerating pump on while shower is used. Thanks Chuck. "Boatdoc"
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Old 01-15-2007, 11:09 AM   #27
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not sure I follow the black tank...its going to be both below and above the floor...the portion above the floor, covered with a box? wouldn't that "raise" the height of the comode?
If I'm picturing this correctly, a big hole in the floor will be required so that the tank can protrude up through...how's that going to affect the structural strength of the floor?
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Old 01-15-2007, 11:51 PM   #28
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For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity above and beyond the call of duty ............... This Baby will make you The Airstream Hero that everyone has been waiting for. I wish I could witness this as it happens. Thanks for posting and sharing... The Old 1SG is very impressed........................
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Old 01-16-2007, 04:52 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by chuck
not sure I follow the black tank...its going to be both below and above the floor...the portion above the floor, covered with a box? wouldn't that "raise" the height of the commode?
If I'm picturing this correctly, a big hole in the floor will be required so that the tank can protrude up through...how's that going to affect the structural strength of the floor?
Hi Chuck; Original set up had a 6" deep tank sitting on the floor. It was enclosed with a box on which sat the standard profile toilet. Step stool was needed to get on it, ridiculous idea. Yes, the tank enclosure will about four inches above floor, that is 4" lower than original. I have not decided yet but I may purchase a new low profile commode. Original commode looks new but I do not like the overall height.
Yes, the floor will have a cut out. Try to keep in mind my floor is a 1/2" plywood to which a 0.025" aluminum skin is bonded too on both sides, making it very stiff since aluminum sheeting cannot be stretched. The only flex you get is compression and stretch of wood core. 4' x 8' sheet supported at end on saw horses allows you to walk on top with very little give. My opening will will be finished with 1/2" x 1/2" SS angle frame encasing cut edge and underside with welded lightweight supports to frame at the four corners.
Thank you for your concern and trust me, there is no sacrifice in the integrity of my floor. Thanks, "Boatdoc"
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Old 01-16-2007, 06:06 AM   #30
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Boatdoc, great thread, keep posting your progress for us please. Question, do you have to treat your welds? Is welding the stainless as much of a pain as is aluminum? I wonder if the welds are a weak link regarding possible corrosion. One of the skills I've always wanted to learn is how to weld... that and learn to sew.
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Old 01-16-2007, 06:23 AM   #31
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I think you'll find this will come in weight wise a lot less than you think.

After gutting anf rebuilding mine it came in a certified scale at 4500 lbs add the tongue weight about 500, and I still will be adding another 400 lbs of stuff that's not yet installed. Say when all is done it will come in at 5500lbs.

I know someone who had the same model weighed at 6500lbs and another at 6700.

I think it's the difference of getting rid of wet insulation, wood, copper pipe, steel ducts, and adding back things that are made with lightweight in mind.

Like you into boats it goes hand and hand.


Question what are your plans for the interior layout and construction of cabinets beds etc?


.
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Old 01-16-2007, 06:34 AM   #32
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cutout...

Chuck - the orginal Argosy had a big hole in the floor by the black tank orginally - I don't think it makes any difference structually... and I'm sure it'll be sealed well by the 'doc.

Boatdoc - I'm wondering where do you find the neoprine skirts - sounds like a great idea - do you cut them yourself?

Any online classes on carbon fiber cabinets?
Marc
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Old 01-16-2007, 06:34 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenCoombe
Boatdoc, great thread, keep posting your progress for us please. Question, do you have to treat your welds? Is welding the stainless as much of a pain as is aluminum? I wonder if the welds are a weak link regarding possible corrosion. One of the skills I've always wanted to learn is how to weld... that and learn to sew.
Hi Glenn; Aluminum welding is by far most difficult. Welding stainles with TIG is relatively easy, you follow the rod. In aluminum welding you follow the torch with the rod, and alloy you weld must be identified, be exceptionally clean and pre heated. Type of rod you use must be properly selected.
It is very easy to overheat and crystallize the aluminum and on the other hand it is easy not to have proper penetration. Again with SS you have to watch temps, and joint area must be laid back to provide space for the weld. As to the weld corrosion, be sure you use proper grade of the rod, and make sure that you do not melt tungsten electrode onto the weld. Tungsten causes severe rust. Strength and quantity of welds must be correctly configured based on the applied working load with consideration for impact forces to which it will be exposed too. Thanks, "Boatdoc"
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Old 01-17-2007, 04:48 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by LI Pets
I think you'll find this will come in weight wise a lot less than you think.

After gutting anf rebuilding mine it came in a certified scale at 4500 lbs add the tongue weight about 500, and I still will be adding another 400 lbs of stuff that's not yet installed. Say when all is done it will come in at 5500lbs.

I know someone who had the same model weighed at 6500lbs and another at 6700.

I think it's the difference of getting rid of wet insulation, wood, copper pipe, steel ducts, and adding back things that are made with lightweight in mind.

Like you into boats it goes hand and hand.

Question what are your plans for the interior layout and construction of cabinets beds etc?
.
Hey Lippets; Towing weight is not of utmost of a concern to us, as we have purchased brand new GMC Sierra 2500 SLE2 with everything under the sun except leather seats which we hate. As to the interior it will be all foam sandwiched carbon fiber with exception of 316 SS counter top. If you can picture waking into 26 Argosy to the right of the door, wrap around sectional gaucho will wrap around curved front window and will continue to about the line of left side of the door, where fridge is located. From the fridge overhead storage will be installed back to the bathroom area. Past the fridge on the same side[street] 2' wide dry cabinet will be installed matching a height of the fridge toped with carbon fiber counter top as one unit, fridge and cabinet. Past the fridge, pull out bed will be mounted. That will consist of aluminum welded frame. SS springs will be stretched via SS 3/32 wire which will have nicropressed loops connecting the springs forming a base. The two 32" wide frames will serve as base for the mattress. The pull out inboard frame will travel in a track on ball bearings. End of that track will have a drop in the outer end of it, so that when the frame is pulled out all the way it will match the level of stationary frame. Second mattress will then be dropped into retainers in the frame. For daytime, stacked mattresses will form additional resting area. With the bed set up there will be 22" walkway to the rear [bathroom]between the bed and the fender well on curbside. From the end of the gaucho and fridge, overhead cabinets will continue on the streetside all the way to the bathroom wall. Past the bed on floor level full height storage closet will be installed ending at bathroom wall connecting floor to overhead cabinetry. Street side of the bathroom, will contain a towel closet and all electrical equipment. Original idea of black tank was changed. New 24 gallon black tank will be inside the 6" frame to provide space for trap from tub. The toilet will then sit at 1" above the floor level. The tub, once in place, will have underside foamed in with poured rigid urethane foam to support the bottom of tub securely on the floor. Toilet will be in the center rear with a small single SS sink between the toilet and the street side. Coming back to the front from the bathroom wall [curb side] a continuing set of cabinets the width of fender well will continue 22" past the front of the fender well topped by continuous carbon top. At that point the counter top will gently curve to a wider section of counter top to match the width of 3 burner stove with the cabinet under the stove top, and to enclose gray water tank under the counter top. Stove will be just to the left of the doorway with double sink and counter top past the stove toward the back. Small section of overhead cabinetry and exhaust duct and fan will be installed above this area. It will end however before the line of bed to ensure easy passageway to the bathroom without ducking your head. Thanks for you inquires Lippets. " Boatdoc"
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Old 01-17-2007, 05:10 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by 3Ms75Argosy
Chuck - the orginal Argosy had a big hole in the floor by the black tank orginally - I don't think it makes any difference structually... and I'm sure it'll be sealed well by the 'doc.

Boatdoc - I'm wondering where do you find the neoprine skirts - sounds like a great idea - do you cut them yourself?

Any online classes on carbon fiber cabinets?
Marc
Hi Marc; Neoprene seals are available at McMaster-Carr. Greatest source of gagetry in the whole world. In a catalog 110 the are on page 3473. Lip style flexible PVC are available from 1/8" ID to 4".
PS. My floor is new aluminum coated plywood. My cutout for the tank is 21" x 45". The 1.5" lip of the new tank will sit on top of the floor.
For the underside of the floor, a SS frame was made of welded 1x2" SS lightweight rectangular tubing matched to the size of a cutout will be thru-bolted from underneath the floor with #10 SS bolts with the 2" cross section vertically. 24"x48" plate on top of the tank, is of the same plywood material will sandwich the outer lip of the black tank between the floor and the SS frame from below. Rest assured my experiments do not come before the engineering process is final. Thanks for your confidence in my abilities Marc. "Boatdoc"
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Old 01-17-2007, 07:11 AM   #36
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For The Love of an Argosy

Boatdoc, I am really enjoying the progress on your frame. You have some great knowledge and ideas and I thank you for sharing them. Keep us posted...
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Old 01-17-2007, 08:43 AM   #37
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I have that bathroom, with the 6" black tank sitting on the floor; the comode is a low profile, and it works out to be "normal" toilet height. are you sure that regular profile comode was really "original"? maybe the PO was just really tall

is the black tank a "stock" model, or are you having it custom made? (if "stock"...have you got a part# so I can maybe get a look at a drawing from the manufacturer?)

so the framework around the hole in the floor makes up for any loss of strength from the big hole? could you get the same result from angle-iron and 3/4" plywood?
I'd like to expand my black tank capacity, and there's no room to do that above the floor; a tank that fits below the floor couldn't be all that much bigger, so the only other thing would be what you're describing. Since I'm not an engineer, nor do I play one on TV...but I do know how critical a sound floor is to the structure of the trailer, I'd be afraid of cutting out that much material so close to the back wall, as thats where the shell attaches.
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Old 01-17-2007, 04:23 PM   #38
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Hi Chuck; There is a problem for you at hand, copying what I am doing. First of all, if you sink a new larger tank into the floor you will reduce the ground clearance of the trailer, by the amount that will extend into the belly below the floor. Remember drain is at the lowest spot. My new frame is 6" not the original 5". My axles are new 5000 lbs with 3500 lbs suspension. I have plenty of clearance to come out below the frame with the 3" drain.
In addition to that I have installed two 4"x4" urethane skid rollers just ahead of the bumper. I would have to know how much clearance you got under the frame. If the torsion axles are sagging, you better abandon the idea. I would be most happy to guide you through your project, but I must have plenty of data to start. My tank is a street side discharge and it is 48" long. This leaves me just enough room to connect a short elbow at discharge. Opposite end just touches the tub. My frame reinforces the floor in excess of the requirement because it is large and my aluminum coated floor is very stiff.
My toilet is a high profile, and it was sitting on top of the 6" box which would require a small step stool for my wife to use it. I had to get it down on the floor or buy a new low profile one. Since this one appears to be very close to new, I want to reuse it. You could install the same tank as I have, and I could design a reinforcing frame which would not compromise the integrity of the floor, but yours would have to be different from mine. Let me know if you are willing to undertake such a project. Building all new offers you the ability to think things out and make things fit, but you have to work with what you have and improve on it. Believe me redesigning this stuff with a assurance that you will not make a mistake is not that simple. Some things require five cups of coffee. Thanks, "Boatdoc"
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Old 01-17-2007, 04:43 PM   #39
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Fantastic work

Great looking frame and should last till Airstream has their 1075th anniversary. When are you gonna put in the slideout, skyview dome, and hydraullic lift kit to elevate yourself above the rest of the TT's in the park?

I'm impressed with all that metal and only 93lbs heavier than the original.

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Old 01-20-2007, 08:46 AM   #40
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Great looking frame and should last till Airstream has their 1075th anniversary. When are you gonna put in the slideout, skyview dome, and hydraullic lift kit to elevate yourself above the rest of the TT's in the park?

I'm impressed with all that metal and only 93lbs heavier than the original.

Alt
Frame and floor is now ready for the shell. I will need to remove second plastic fender well from the shell, and jack the shell up so that new frame can be rolled under the shell and and placed with the old floor onto frame and brought into the shop. From that point a lower section of inner skins will be removed and ribs braced across. Old floor will be dropped once the shell is suspended from hoists. Side 2" retaining trim channel will be transfered onto new frame after which the shell will be permanently reattached. Removal of all inner skins will follow and insulating with Prodex will start. It is miserably cold and very windy here in Pa, so this may have to wait until winds subside.
Besides after last straight 34 hour shift I have pulled last Thursday and into Friday, I need a break. My wife mandates it anyway, and I accept it. Thanks "Boatdoc"
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