Man-made subfloor? No Plywood please....

[Zstream]

Has anyone doing a frame up restore opted to use a man-made product instead of plywood for the subfloor? If so, what is the name of the stuff?

I know there is something that comes in 4 x 8 sheets that is stronger than plywood and wont rot...alas, I do not know the name or if it is available to consumers. I know certain industries use it....Please help if you have any insight into an alternative to plywood. Tks, Z.

[Lothlorian]

Zstream:

I used a product called Nyloboard. They have a website plus I posted on the flooring page the link. It worked really well for me. It is recycled carpeting that looks and feels like plywood. It saws well, hammers well and it does not rot, or give off toxic chemcials. Great stuff. I did my bathoom floor with it. I don't have to worry about rot in that area. It is about $140.00 a sheet.

Lothlorian

Brian

[utee94]

I was about to mention that another poster called "SIU Bound" used nyloboard as well, and then I realized who "Lothlorian" is...

[Over59]

Use marine grade plywood. The floor holds the whole trailer together so unless you know for sure the alternative material will hold up to the stress of travel, that the fasteners will not give up their grip with the twisting, you are taking an unnecessary risk. If you want your floor to last a hundred years use penetrating expoxy for a foot around the outside.
Keep in mind that weight issues as well.

[Lothlorian]

I toured the factory where they make Nyloboard. I live about 30 minutes from the factory. I accidently stumbled on to the factory when I was running around. They build houses with it. They advertise it for trailers. They even have pictures of it being used. They have all the specifications for it listed. They have plywood and nyloboard comparisons.

Lothlorian

Brian

[utee94]

Brian, do you have a link to the "mold" picture. That one was telling.

I'd be delighted to use nyloboard for my upcoming trailer and boat deck replacements if I could get it locally. But delivery charges to Austin make it cost-prohibitive.

-Marcus

[Zstream]

Brian: Did you use their 3/4 inch board? Thanks for the referral. Z.

Originally Posted by Lothlorian

Zstream:

I used a product called Nyloboard. They have a website plus I posted on the flooring page the link. It worked really well for me. It is recycled carpeting that looks and feels like plywood. It saws well, hammers well and it does not rot, or give off toxic chemcials. Great stuff. I did my bathoom floor with it. I don't have to worry about rot in that area. It is about $140.00 a sheet.

Lothlorian

Brian

[Canuks]

Im thinking of doing the same for my CCD. I dicovered some floor rot in my 2003. I was shocked to find out that they used particleboard for my floor. Jackson Center made no comment when I had it down there last week...They were willing to charge me six grand to repair(not replace)the floor. I will be using 5/8 recycled manmade plastic plywood for my floor replacement. I understand the stuff is easy to work with. Never will I deal with a floor rot problem like that again. I really like the trailer and plan to keep it.

[Stefrobrts]

Previous people have investigated it and found the nyloboard needed more support than plywood, because it is more flexible. Did you have to add extra support under the nyloboard, and if not do you feel any flexing when walking around on it? I would like to use it (or a similar product) to replace the walls on my horse trailer when I rebuild it.

I went with marine plywood. I figured it was probably better than the stuff it replaced, which lasted the first 40 years. If it lasts another 40 it won't be my problem when it fails - I'll be 80!

[byamcaravanner]

Originally Posted by Stefrobrts

Previous people have investigated it and found the nyloboard needed more support than plywood, because it is more flexible.

Stef,

The stiffness of 3/4" fiberglass skinned Nyloboard is comparable to that of standard grade 5/8" plywood. The homogeneous construction of Nyloboard and it's resistance to water related degradation will give it an advantage regarding the comparative stiffness of aged product.

I sure wish the product was in regional distribution.

[utee94]

Me too, Steve. I would use this not only for my Airstream floor replacement, but also for my boat floor replacement. But I suspect the shipping expense will make it cost-prohibitive for me to even consider.

-Marcus

[Lothlorian]

Hi guys:

Wow! I have not been on the forum. I took a new teaching job and I am having to learn a whole new way to handle all the administrative work. I is different from my last teaching job. I have been putting 12 hours days in and I have been busy. Sorry I am so late on the reply.

Nyloboard was only used in my bathroom and it worked great. I did not put the piece in one section. I had to cut it in half to make it fit. I was worried about flexibility, but I connected the board with corrigate metal floor connectors. I also used a very thin piece of steel as a butt joint and welded a piece of garage door steel to my stringer to bolt the nyloboard to. After I put the whole thing back together it does not budge one bit. It is a nice feeling not worrying about the bathroom floor rotting. I am happy with it. Yes it is expensive but the peaceful feeling it gives is worth it. It was like working with plywood. It is about $140.00 a board. I only bought one board and picked it up. Here is the link.

Nyloboard-Home

on the 5th page of this link you will see the nyloboard installed. I had a wood butt joint. I replaced it with thin strong steel.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f36/...n-38204-5.html


Lothlorian

Brian

[utee94]

Originally Posted by Lothlorian

Hi guys:

Wow! I have not been on the forum. I took a new teaching job and I am having to learn a whole new way to handle all the administrative work. I is different from my last teaching job. I have been putting 12 hours days in and I have been busy. Sorry I am so late on the reply.

Nyloboard was only used in my bathroom and it worked great. I did not put the piece in one section. I had to cut it in half to make it fit. I was worried about flexibility, but I connected the board with corrigate metal floor connectors. I also used a very thin piece of steel as a butt joint and welded a piece of garage door steel to my stringer to bolt the nyloboard to. After I put the whole thing back together it does not budge one bit. It is a nice feeling not worrying about the bathroom floor rotting. I am happy with it. Yes it is expensive but the peaceful feeling it gives is worth it. It was like working with plywood. It is about $140.00 a board. I only bought one board and picked it up. Here is the link.

Nyloboard-Home

on the 5th page of this link you will see the nyloboard installed. I had a wood butt joint. I replaced it with thin strong steel.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f36/...n-38204-5.html


Lothlorian

Brian

Hi Brian,

It's really not even that expensive compared to other common substrate materials. You might or might not know, but top-quality Marine Grade Plywood often runs around $125/sheet depending on your location, so the cost of the material itself is comparable to solutions that others are using.

The distribution is the key, because the shipping costs are high.

If they can resolve that issue, I could see it being used almost exclusively as the substrate for RVs, boats, and any other application where you'd like something strong, somewhat flexible, and water-proof.

-Marcus

[osolow]

do you have to buy this straight from the factory or can you get it at Lowes or Home depot ?

[Lothlorian]

You have to buy it from the factory. The manager of the company has been selling it to some trailer manufactures and he told me that he has met with RV builders. This is a pretty new company. He started in 2005.

Brian

[byamcaravanner]

Originally Posted by utee94

Hi Brian,

It's really not even that expensive compared to other common substrate materials. You might or might not know, but top-quality Marine Grade Plywood often runs around $125/sheet depending on your location, so the cost of the material itself is comparable to solutions that others are using.

The distribution is the key, because the shipping costs are high.

If they can resolve that issue, I could see it being used almost exclusively as the substrate for RVs, boats, and any other application where you'd like something strong, somewhat flexible, and water-proof.

-Marcus

For those doing a shell-off restoration of a medium to short trailer... it is available in up to 8'x24' pieces. I think this would be enough to do an Overlander floor in one piece.

[boatdoc]

Originally Posted by Stefrobrts

Previous people have investigated it and found the nyloboard needed more support than plywood, because it is more flexible. Did you have to add extra support under the nyloboard, and if not do you feel any flexing when walking around on it? I would like to use it (or a similar product) to replace the walls on my horse trailer when I rebuild it.

I went with marine plywood. I figured it was probably better than the stuff it replaced, which lasted the first 40 years. If it lasts another 40 it won't be my problem when it fails - I'll be 80!

Hi Stephanie; We have tried Nyloboard in a aluminum boat decking and flooring. Well, I had to re-do my $3000.00 job free of charge with plywood. The stuff got to be like jelly in the summer sun. It warped to no end, carpet glue softened and dissolved. High rate of expansion in the summer heat made it impossible to walk on. It may be OK in controlled environment but I would not use it in AS, for one reason. The floor will be attached to metal frame which has low expansion rate. Fasteners holding it, will not allow for high expansion rate and material will have to expand somewhere. In the high heat the floor will soften up and buckle, turning into unsuspected tripping device.

In my restored 26' Arg. sub floor I used a OMEGA Brand Sign Board 1/2".
It is glued with waterproof glue and has a aluminum skin on booth sides.
Supported at ends of the 8' length, I can stand in the center of the sheet with only 1.5" deflection. I have encapsulated all open edges with 1/2" X 1/2" aluminum "C" trim from McMaster-Carr. Sheets were joined with "H" trim from the same supplier. All trim was installed using a Fast Cure 3M 5200 permanent adhesive. No water can ever enter the sub floor. For sound and insulation we have glued down 1/4" cork underlayment using a adhesive in spray form named Star Stuk Clear HM by NorthStar Chemicals, Inc. This stuff is the best I ever used. The 12" x 12" urethane finished cork tiles were made by JELINEK and were glued down with water borne adhesive on top of the underlayment. We love the feel of the cork while barefoot.
Natural Cork resist mildew and mold, what else would you want? Thanks, "Boatdoc"

[byamcaravanner]

Originally Posted by boatdoc

The floor will be attached to metal frame which has low expansion rate. Fasteners holding it, will not allow for high expansion rate and material will have to expand somewhere. In the high heat the floor will soften up and buckle

Boatdoc,

From your description... your experiences seem extreme relative to the stated material properties. The coefficients of linear thermal expansion are .000033 in/in/deg F for Nyloboard and .0000055 for steel. Per my calculations the differential expansion rate would be less than 1/32" per foot for a 90 deg temperature swing. This could easily be accommodated within the standard 1/16" over sized holes in the steel cross members. One could even use Teflon washers to ensure the differential movement as req'd.

[hampstead38]

From an engineering perspective the question I have is, "Why"? Marine-grade plywood properly treated and installed has a number of characteristics which I think would generally favorable to a trailer subfloor, even under the bathroom. Perhaps if you could outline what you would expect from the manmade material, forum members could be of more help on alternatives.

[boatdoc]

Originally Posted by microphone

Boatdoc,

From your description... your experiences seem extreme relative to the stated material properties. The coefficients of linear thermal expansion are .000033 in/in/deg F for Billboard and .0000055 for steel. Per my calculations the differential expansion rate would be less than 1/32" per foot for a 90 deg temperature swing. This could easily be accommodated within the standard 1/16" over sized holes in the steel cross members. One could even use Teflon washers to ensure the differential movement as rec'd.

Hi microphone; Your technical data sheet on which you base your theory can work in theory. I have spent over four decades working with different materials and I have learned that any data sheet is only a data sheet to sell. Much like the chemical manufacturers who want me to purchase 55 gallon drum of cleaner that will do it all. When I ask for a sample to test, they do not have any small containers available and hang up the phone. I do not mean to project such negative view on our marketplace but there are still salespersons who will sell you Brooklyn Bridge for a hundred bucks. Personal experiences with any product is what I believe in, after being bitten hundreds of times, and then wisdom takes over. Being of my age, I have gained lot of it.

My point is to stay with the KISS rule. Do I believe in technical data sheets? NO. While I worked with nyloboard of another manufacturer and the product may differ somewhat, but it is still same base product. Based on my past experience, would I take a chance to replace the entire floor in my AS which requires enormous amount of work? NO, unless I have tested the conformity to the technical data sheet. The oversize holes the Teflon washers are just another layer of butter and jelly to mask the taste of a stale bread. If I am going to spend a thousand bucks on sub floor material and two hundred hours of labor, the data sheet better be on the money. Chance it anyway? NO WAY.

Now let's review the facts related to plywood. There are many differences in marine plywood. One major difference is in number of plies. Two, it is glued water proof glue [not water resistant]. Third, marine ply has no voids, even on the interior plies. Four, there are different grades of top layers. Some very nice grain on booth sides for clear finish such as varnish. Some one side fancy grain, and others for non transparent finishes. The integrity of product is almost the same, but top layers differ. One does not need to spend top dollar to purchase top quality grain on both sides because you will never see it anyway. The problem is that once you ask for marine plywood the supplier will sell you the most expensive ply. Large companies, such as Harbor Sales of Baltimore MD, stock few different grades because they sell more than anyone else.
Another product that can solve many problems is laminates finished with sheet of aluminum top and bottom such as product called SIGN BOARD.
It is made for direct outdoor use for road signs where it is totally unprotected for years. This was my choice for that reason. With all edges and screws sealed with 3M 5200 no water and or moisture can enter the wood. It is very stiff, do not have to seal it with epoxy or paint and is cheaper than top grade of marine plywood.

My point is to keep things simple, with old reliable methods rather than take a chance on relying on data sheets of new product which made be the best thing ever, or may be not. Someone may want to try it and someone should, but I am done being the Guinea Pig. Thanks, "Boatdoc"