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Old 11-16-2006, 10:20 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by ankornuta
So... will the ramp trick work for changing a tire on an old trailer like mine that doesn't have torsion axles, but leaf springs?

Sure will.

Andy
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Old 11-16-2006, 10:57 AM   #58
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Sure will.

Andy
Cool, thanks Andy.

I have another question about that, actually... when I took my wheels off, I pushed up on one of the axles and the linkage between the two sets of leaf springs moved to where the rear end is a lot closer to the frame than the front end.... is this bad? I've towed it like this and didn't notice any problems, but it looks weird. The trailer sits level and all but like I said... it just looks strange.

I know a picture would help....
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Old 11-16-2006, 01:29 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ankornuta
Cool, thanks Andy.

I have another question about that, actually... when I took my wheels off, I pushed up on one of the axles and the linkage between the two sets of leaf springs moved to where the rear end is a lot closer to the frame than the front end.... is this bad? I've towed it like this and didn't notice any problems, but it looks weird. The trailer sits level and all but like I said... it just looks strange.

I know a picture would help....

Pictures always help.

What you described is the way that suspension system works.

Andy
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Old 11-16-2006, 03:09 PM   #60
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Pictures always help.

What you described is the way that suspension system works.

Andy
Huh... it just seems "unbalanced" looking. As long as I get home before dark tonight I'll take some pictures and post them.
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Old 11-18-2006, 04:58 PM   #61
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Leaf Springs

here's the photo I promised.

Oh, also noteworthy, as you can see on a trailer with leaf springs, it is not possible to jack it up between the axles as that is there the leaf springs connect. I tend to use the frame just in front of the axles for the front tires and rear of the axles for the rear tires.

However, is it okay to jack the trailer up by point on the axles where the leaf springs attach? I think it's called the "shackles" or something like that....

It can't really be seen in the picture, but I used the ramp technique to take my tire off, but still had to jack the trailer up a bit.
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Old 11-18-2006, 05:06 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ankornuta
...However, is it okay to jack the trailer up by point on the axles where the leaf springs attach? I think it's called the "shackles" or something like that....
Yes.

Tom
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Old 11-18-2006, 06:30 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ankornuta
here's the photo I promised.

It can't really be seen in the picture, but I used the ramp technique to take my tire off, but still had to jack the trailer up a bit.

Interesting.

You have 12 inch brakes it appears, but with 5 lug drums.

Andy
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Old 11-18-2006, 08:31 PM   #64
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My Liner has similiar wheels, 5 lug, 12" brakes. When I replaced the axles, I went with 6 lug and 12" brakes. Here is a picture of the original springs and drums.

Ankornuta,

Take a pry bar and flip the shackle for the front spring up so that the sping eye is higher than the equalizer between the axles. The shackles should point up from the spring eye.

Bill
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Old 11-18-2006, 09:23 PM   #65
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Hello ankornuta, When your trailer is sitting on the axles and level the shackels and the center rocker should be level and look the same .sometimes the front or rear can get out of whack when you go over very uneven surfaces like up a driveway or over rough roads .the shackles and rocker
(center pivoting device connected to the shackles ) should return to the proper position after .alot of times there can be some popping or other noise as the components move in or out of this movement .When you raise your hanging axle back up the shackle should return to the proper position and appear as the rear shackle (like in wkerfoots photo) sometimes they get stuck in the position in your photo ,possibly some binding ,bad bushings,
or tightness to the rocker in the center or stuck bolts in the spring eyes
as in rusted in place at each end of the rocker .the suspension should be somewhat "fluid" in its movement so to speak ,as in easily moving thru
the geometry of the design .Id look to see if any of the mentioned rusted
bolts or binding exists .the shackles and rocker should be level and equal front and rear ,not one up and one down or whatever ,unless as I say on an
uneven surface where one axle is riding higher up than the other.

Scott
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Old 11-19-2006, 09:24 AM   #66
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Arrow Response to Uwe post dated 11-13-2006 11:10Am.

Quote:
Originally Posted by uwe
With all due respect, Mr. Boatdoc, your post is inaccurate.
It is entirely ok to use a ramp for tire changes, as it is perfectly ok to drive a tandem axle with 3 wheels. Common sense dictates to use caution, of course.
As per recommendation of 2airishuman and comments of Uwe, with this article I rest my shovel. Sorry for the late response but that is because I have a life outside the forums which took priority. The issue was related to torsion axles.
Dual axle trailer rated for 7000 lbs gross weight equates to having 1750 lbs rated capacity per spindle. While that figure is not the limit for distortion, it is the manufacturers rated capacity to maintain longevity. If the torsion suspension was capable for continuously handling 3500 lbs, four of them would give us a 14000 lbs rated suspension and one stiff ride. Yes, it is not continuous but my point behind this article, is to show just how though and well engineered the suspension truly is, by exposing the forces transfered onto them. Perhaps then, we can understand why they fail. The rubber compound inserts are man made. They are not made of magical material which returns to the original form time after time. It will deform with abuse and time.

A 7000 lbs trailer sitting on level ground spreads the load evenly among the four tires while the tongue weight's CG [center of gravity] is extended forward to a specific Vector point, near the center of the tow vehicle, through weight distribution hitch. Because the result of the lateral Vectors change when a another diagonal Vector comes into play during the load transfer, it needs to be considered as well. The Vectors may be horizontal, vertical, or along The X or Y axis. The sum of those Vectors plays a major role in CG at rest, and even more so when the trailer is in motion. The sum of those Vectors is called Vector Resolution.

With the trailer connected to tow vehicle with load levelers in place, the trailer is supported at three points. By placing scales under those points, they would indicate equal reading of mass weight on all three points. The center of gravity may not be between the four wheels, since a portion of weight rests on the third point, the hitch. When we try to jack up the trailer on one side Vector for the CG changes. Pending the distribution of weight inside the trailer, the CG point will change. While it does not change the total mass weight, the CG shifts. If the weight was suspended on two points we would have to lift about 50% of total weight [pending the weight distribution inside] to lift the one side off the ground. In order to find a CG when the weight is spread among three points, we must locate the CG through the use of Pythagoren Theorem trigonometry, calculus concepts and other scalar quantities. This task would be simple if the trailer was a rectangular flat plate, but it is not. Total mass weight is distributed unevenly within the trailer, and it is difficult to conceptualize. CG while in motion changes all load factors.

For example a vehicle with 66" track width and 22" CG will experience 60% more weight on outer wheels and 60% less on inner wheels in a 0.9g turn. While the g figure is high it is proportional to CG. Comparing the 22" CG example to maybe 48" in AS amounts to considerable difference. If that lateral weight transfer reaches half the mass weight the vehicle will roll over.
With the trailer in tow, loads differ from stand still. Multiple factors come into play, such as bumpy or uneven road surface, potholes and kinetic G
forces. Figuring those factual changes is no easy task.

In order to figure the amounts of forces applied to the torsion shaft in motion, we would have to determine mathematically the Sum of all Vectors involved. Result of those Vectors for all components may differ because they may not act perpendicularly, especially under towing condition. No matter how minute the changes in Vectors are, overall they have a considerable effect when towing. This makes it impossible to obtain true results by providing fictitious Vector Values.

Knowing this, I have made a statement that is not good to tow with one wheel off. This statement was changed by others that it cannot be done. In the 3500 lbs axle the single tire must carry about half the weight. Or is my math wrong? What about the G forces of passing tractor trailers traveling much faster than your limp, pushing you away at first and than sucking you in? What about G forces in turns? What about potholes? Try to remember that abuse next time you need a axle. I have never stated that one cannot back or pull up the wheels on a leveling block, although pulling up is better than backing up on the block. It is so because, if the block is not a progressive ramp you might experience a momentary cam lock on that torsion arm. Pulling a trailer onto a wedge block is not the same as driving on three tires "quote by uwe" [it can also be towed hundreds of miles to the next service station at reduced speed, and with caution, of course] end of quote. To be continued for lack of space on this page. "boatdoc"
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Old 11-19-2006, 09:52 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uwe
With all due respect, Mr. Boatdoc, your post is inaccurate.
It is entirely ok to use a ramp for tire changes, as it is perfectly ok to drive a tandem axle with 3 wheels. Common sense dictates to use caution, of course.
Continuation of previous post;
I have never stated that you cannot use wedge to change a tire, but I did say That it is not good to drive hundreds of miles on three tires, because the inserts take a beating from the road.

Some statements included were: you can proceed safely at reduced speed to a service station. Service station where? Who considers proceeding safely at 40 or even 50 mph on a hi way where the traffic moves at 70 +? Some roads have posted minimum speed limits. Even if you are above that limit you are still impeding the traffic, creating hazardous condition, by so called limping. Those who wish to do it can, I will not because I have a spare.

There are many situations and so many variables and so many if's, that we can beat this issue till doomsday. Fact remains if you want to do it you can, but when you ask a single spindle to carry the load of two do not cry when it is time to replace axles. If you do not have a spare you must tow it, but that is not the best it can be done. The point was as to what was best choice.
Best is having a spare. Therefore at that I will rest my shovel and decline to respond to this post again.

In closing, our forums are not "Owners Manuals" to broad media. They are exchanges of knowledge and experiences at individual level. No member shall take it as gospel truth, without use of common sense to draw their own conclusions. They show different views and you should make your own determination. By the same Forums are not a place for attacks and wrongful deformation of one's math ability. Perhaps those with a better math capability can figure what the momentary load is on the spindle hitting a 4" deep pothole? Find facts first before you criticize someone. Someone else may just know much more than you think. So, thanks for your kind words Mr, uve and 2airishuman. "boatdoc"
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Old 11-19-2006, 01:28 PM   #68
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Interesting.

You have 12 inch brakes it appears, but with 5 lug drums.

Andy
Why is that interesting? Is that not normal?
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Old 11-19-2006, 01:35 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by wkerfoot

Take a pry bar and flip the shackle for the front spring up so that the sping eye is higher than the equalizer between the axles. The shackles should point up from the spring eye.

Bill
Thanks Bill, Scott and Andy. Once I get the wheel and tire back from the tire shop and I get the trailer down off the ramps I'll be sure to pry the rockers back into the appropriate position.

They first got into that skewed position that they're in now when I had the body and floor off and I stood on one of the axles (the front one) and it went down, the rear one went up... and that's how it stayed. I've towed the trailer a little bit since, but only about 14 miles over pretty smooth terrain. They're greased pretty well and don't appear to be rusted into position, but I'll find out more when I try to even them out again.

Before I do any serious travelling with this trailer, after I'm done restoring it, I'll have all this running gear checked out thoroughly by a professional.
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Old 11-19-2006, 01:43 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ankornuta
Why is that interesting? Is that not normal?
Andy,

Normal depends on the era, my 1979 Safari has 6 lug wheels and 12" drums, my Liner, and your Cruiser, has 5 lug and 12" drums, somewhere in between the normal for 6 lug wheels was 12" brakes, I think 5 lug wheels were used on smaller trailers with 10" drums. But I don't know for certain as I do not have one of the smaller trailers, such as a Bambi, Caravel or Globetrotter.

Bill
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