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Old 10-07-2011, 10:31 AM   #15
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HVLP POR-15 spray results

Jim was spot on there. A note for future readers - a difference between 'dries' and 'hardens'. POR-15 is about 30% Naptha that keeps the pre-mixed hardener from getting exposed to the moisture in the air, when that evaporates and the paint settles into a nice smooth film then it starts locking together. Adding more paint on top before it its started hardening (completely dry) and keyed-in will raise bubbles and orange peel, sags and runs.

These two quarts were bought in 2007 - so that is four years storage in the root cellar at 57F/13C and it hardened just fine. The spec sheet says 6 months to 2 years at 77F/25C.

It had completely settled out to a clear serum that took forever to mix the aluminum metal flakes back in with a cute little quart-sized power drill 'turbine' mixer and I used an automotive cone-style filter strainer (free at auto paint shops) just in case but the gun (14 size nozzle) worked excellent. I thinned it about 8% on the first coat for penetration and to stretch coverage a little, and 5% on the second coat. Probably one of the funner things I've done this summer.

I was doing alright, vapor exposure wise, until I cleaned the gun - then I got a solid slug of it plus ruined two pairs of gloves and had thinner soaked hands for 15 minutes... and woke up this morning with a cheap Rum hangover.

No/low spray drift noted yet but I have not looked very hard at the neighbors window glass, it may be speckled slightly, they knew I would be painting and told me not to worry, just be careful...

pictures.........

That is aluminum foil in the photos used for masking - and I still had to chase it around the yards since the wind got up a bunch of times...
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Old 10-17-2011, 10:16 AM   #16
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Its warmed above 50F so time to get outside!

Ah yes, the minutiae never stops and the seasons march on. We loose the 70's and 80's temperatures just in time for the floor work. No worries, right? I dive into the specs on the paint & primer I'd planned on using at first up its... 50F and 50% RH its 75 days cure time on the primer. Oh Joy.

I've found the new floor material - sign board plywood, the stuff tested at least three years in 24/7 outdoor exposure in South Florida for outdoor advertising if its primed and painted. I like it.

In plywoods there is HDO, MDO and SDO, graded into soft, medium and hard density overlay types. The SDO is yellow pine outer layers, the MDO has Fir and the HDO is just a shiny glazed finish away from formica on a really stout outer layer resin build-up. For warranty one HDO maker reccomends concrete form sealant paint for the board edges but that is for years of being exposed 24/7 as outdoor advertising. Thats a good tip for any plywood, concrete form paint.

So looking for a pure acrylic commercial grade primer I found STIX SXA-110 acrylic-urethane primer sealer made by a Benjamin Moore subsidiary. Full cure in 7 Days at 35F and the toughest film the trade shops around here could offer.

The 'reason' I need to prime this flooring is it has a kraft paper veneer on a waterproof phenol build-up resin outer layer. The kraft paper smooth surface is for outdoor advertising - I bought the stuff for the resin sheathed exterior layer that glues the paper on so the paper is just to better lock paint on.

The thing about this is when it got damp in a rain shower it came up smelling faintly of Urea or even a little campier than that... so a water-based primer has to key 100% into that paper to seal it up. I plan on doing two coats of exterior porch paint over the primer, even if I have to heat the tarp shack for a couple of days for it to harden.

The board came as 49" x 99" so I am taking advantage of the extra and making lap joints of at least 1-inch to keep the 12x24 floor screws from all nesting at the edges of the floor sheets. Cutting away as many factory edges to expose fresh wood as possible, so its two 3/8" original edges meeting at the lap joint, the rest is unweathered new cuts..

$42/sheet true-3/4" 7-ply Fir/Hemlock waterproof exterior plywood.
http://www.olypanel.com/common/pdf/S...it%2011-07.pdf

Stix Waterborne Bonding Primer SXA-110.
http://www.insl-x.com/downloads/Insl...110%20Stix.pdf

pictures.....
  1. Scraps used to calibrate the router - This wood is 99.9% void-free. The piece on far right, the lower edge shows some of the red phenol resin on the paper, the lumber yard gave me $10 off this sheet as the edge was flawed so that became the front sheet w/ damaged area cut away. Not shown is I racked the lumber up w/ spacers between the sheets to let it adjust to outdoor humidity (under tarps) as specs suggest 3-days but its been 10 so far w/ a couple of rains. The man'f date is 15 months past and indoor storage through two MN winters has it match stick dry, I'd rather it shrank after install rather than expand. Maximum movement spec'd at .200 inches over the 4-foot width...
  2. Showing the 1-1/16 inch lap joint. The 1/2-inch backing board (not shown) is also MDO, planning on Tightbond waterproof glue-up with a thin bead of 3M 5200 on every plywood to metal surface to hush any squeaks and pops from walking around in the trailer, which was the best and only good thing about the factory crushing fiberglass between the frame and floor.
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Old 10-17-2011, 01:11 PM   #17
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Cool stuff!
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Old 10-23-2011, 09:14 AM   #18
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Six sheets cut and fitted with a brain bruising exercise to align the rear floor panel to the shell after holding floor joints to best center over outriggers. It's just a matter of a 1/2" there and 3/4" here, one plywood lap joint held at 3/4" while another is 1-1/2", etc. but it left us really scratching our head to circumference the edges to match the shell.

Whats that you say, just use the old floor as template? The rear sheet had rotted beyond reconstruction to duplicate and the temporary floor sheet got held 3/4" short curbside (oops) so the rearmost curve bolts and main frame rail through-bolt missed the plywood. Cardboard template only showed us the inner-channel outline traced on the temp sheet was still valid, so strictly held that line 1-5/8" and cut with confidence. And oh yeah, the sheet widths have grown to 49-3/32" from humidity. Fun.

There may be real trouble landing the shell from interference with the back hold-down plate as I added 1/4" rearward length, I may have to miter an angle on it for the plate to return to its original mounting pad - I'll leave that sheet loose! The outer shell skin under the rear utility hatch is requiring replacement - if that goes back as provided it will be .040 or .050 and extend to the bottom of the frame rails to best shed water.... or something like that.

Anyhow - this STIX primer paint is pretty good stuff EXCEPT when subject to standing water, maybe not the brightest move on my part but it will have two coats of outdoor floor paint on it, first coat is today. We had rain showers overnight and left the wood just as you see it, this morning everything had shed water and showed no damage. I guess I don't mind the water, it will help the next coat of primer penetrate by opening up any 'missed' pores and helping the primer not dry too fast.

There will have to be some shiming or gasketing laid over a few of the spars where they miss alignment with the ladder frame rails by 1/8" - that fiberglass crush method sure covers a host of evils but does make for the quietest floor in the industry. The worst is up front at the solid cross member that has the spare-tire mount lugs built in, the next is the angle iron brace above the water tank...

pictures.........

  1. By the last sheet we'd gotten pretty good guestimating and investing decisions on this stuff - someone who'd ever done sub-floors might've got this knocked down in a full day but might've overlooked some nuances requiring worrying and fretting. Probably a half-bushel of sawdust everywhere now, on the cats, in the vehicles, out front on the sidewalk...
  2. Fifteen minutes after sunset and the base-coat of paint is on. Near dark and too many cups of coffee makes for the blurry photo... And note the shell lift pylons doubling as floor sheet painting easels
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Old 10-25-2011, 10:09 AM   #19
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Anyway you slice it it is a big PITA!! I had the same problem with the rear section on my trailer. The wood was pratically non existant. I had to go back in and shave a 1/2 in off the length.
Lookin good keep it up!
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Old 10-26-2011, 08:30 AM   #20
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I fear that I am facing this job.....no, I know it.....thanks for sharing this - I'll keep watching!
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Old 10-28-2011, 12:19 PM   #21
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Vinyl Ester Resin not the answer...

Update:

wasagachris stopped in as I'm three miles from the Interstate; if seeing my hillbilly chaos-theory restoration and three hours of hearing my tales of woe doesn't make him swear off Airstreams, or at least meeting & greeting wanna-be Airstreamers... Anyhow, best three hours I've spent around my trailers ever. A earnest thank you for your time, Chris!

I changed the floor paint scheme; I added an oil-based primer coat over that first heavy coat of STIX, I went to sand the sawdust nibs off and the stuff dusted like drywall spackle so I'm using it as a bonding primer, it does adhere & penetrate well (five days later still some on my fingernails) but does not leave the water-bouncing film I wanted. Chose Behr acrylic floor paint and their recommended primer... the stuff smells like fresh cooked pancakes 1st day curing, then like hot popcorn the second day curing - but makes me about cross-eyed the first few hours of drying from mineral spirits!

Fighting temperatures too - overnight frosts and days in the 50's have me running a Vornado fan/heater 24/7 in my 10x20 shelter. The Vornado injects a small amount of heat into a huge bulk of moving air, a good draft killer for the house, but is just shouting in the wind trying to keep the tarp shelter really warm if the wind is stirring as the shelter has air leaks. But since the trees are shedding their leaves once the sun hits the shelter its in the 80's in there! Ultimately its taking twice or more as long to paint as it would've a few weeks ago, but conversely maybe the paint is penetrating deeper with a slow cure - the edges are rejecting soaking in paint already so thats a good sign.

Wondering why I am fixated on sealing the wood?

I replaced the rear sheet with the $85 'marine grade' 3/4" plywood less than four years ago - I used 2/3rds of a gallon of vinyl ester fiberglass resin because it is harder than the usual polyester resin and a better moisture barrier.

I was disappointed with the pulp-wood inner layers of the marine grade plywood, some screws would bounce off and require counter sinking while the next screw would pull almost through the panel before encountering any resistance - thus the high grade sign & concrete form structural plywood this time.

I was disappointed with the VE resin, first two coats thinned for penetration and another thick two coats over that to try and make the wood 98% water-proof but the attached picture shows the wood well on its way to dry-rot in places - whether the grain of the wood relaxed from weathering and opened the pores to moisture or what I don't know but the edge shown is well on its way to delaminating. It could just be I missed spots and there was only light coats on the areas that were fading fast, but I'd bet there is more like six coats of resin on there as I doubled up with recoating with brushing out uneven places, even applied it by dumping out resin and spreading it around.

Also note that flooring has been frozen 1/3 of that time with our severe winters up here - freeze-thaw cycles might have helped open the pores of the wood. Also the worst area was.... at the bumper mount frame extension that had only minimal drip edge - caulk protection, but still I expected better from $140 and 30 hours of work!

The two example pieces are lying on top of the old floor sectioned up for the trash haulers, hated to trash that much prodex but it had to be done. The damage was on the underside of the panels, the tops still looked good.

I'm putting an Behr acrylic exterior porch paint (silver color) as top coats, then its toss them on the frame and drop the shell time! Its warmed up to 50F outside to time to get a move on... thanks for reading y'all!
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Old 10-28-2011, 03:08 PM   #22
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My dear Wabbiteer, thank you so much for this thread. I believe a nice Avion is about to fall into my clutches - along with it, a long term dirt cheap lease on a warehouse. If it needs a new floor - you've convinced me to drive to Georgia and buy a truckload of NyloBoard!

If we meet along the road sometime, remind me that I need to buy you a nice hard cider or other beverage of your choice.

Paula - Curses Foiled AGAIN!
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Old 11-04-2011, 10:03 AM   #23
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If our dear friends at Nyloboard thought a little less highly of their product money-wise I'd have it now!

I spent a bunch of hours crossing Georgia twice last August and spent some time deliberating what price point I'd need to drag six sheets home and came up with 2X wood & paint costs or $130 a sheet. Too bad they want $220-240 (last I read) per sheet plus 7% sales tax ($1412-1540 for six) and discourage factory pick-ups. I did not stop in Covington, Ga so I'll never know for sure if they didn't have a stack out front with a free sign on it but for the next 40 years I think I'm covered with the MDO.

I've finally gotten five coats of paint on the flooring sections, had to sew up the seams on the tarp shack (spiderwire fishing line) and run a heater 24/7 to get the stuff to cure correctly. The heater has run about $4 a day for electricity. Now that more leaves are down with the regular overnight frosts by midday its in the 80's in the shack from the white tarp roof admitting sunlight.

I have a case of 3M 5200 caulk on its way - I plan to dry fit the flooring with a couple of bolts in each section plus fit & drill the backing plates, then pull it apart to add the adhesive/sealant. Twelve tubes will yield 380' of 1/4" bead caulk so I'm hoping there will be enough to pad every metal-to-plywood and glue the backing plate & floor section seams. Only hitch is the POR-15 may reject the 5200 but by then it will be cured and form fitted, I will sand the POR on the outriggers to make sure it bonds where there might be water though.

I'll calculate the total metal surface area later today and post back, each tube has one square foot at 1/8" thickness. I hope I'm covered.

I've got thin silicone sheet I'll add as button or strip hold-offs to keep the fastened plywood from extruding the 5200 out, ensuring a even thermal break and cushion layer there. I'd planned on using the silicone by itself but couldn't figure a way to keep it from collecting water and/or creeping out over time or deforming when a screw spun through it.

I'm pressure washing the shell interior today and tomorrow - the oiled fiberglass residue has to come off before I can paint plus a odor issue. Once that is done I have original Vulkem I'm going to slather over the exposed inside rivet lines and seams.

I've wire wheeled the front and rear shell-to-floor channels and have zinc chromate outboard motor primer/paint waiting for a nice day to spray that (especially the area resting on the floor) and the double 'c' channel with. I've heat-gunned the old vulkem residues off and will paint them too, along with the front hold-down plate area.

I've got an insulating additive to mix with interior shell primer-sealer...
Insulating Paint Additive Makes Paint Insulate

And an insulating aluminum topcoat paint to cover everything except the rib face where the interior shell panel attaches...
Attic Radiant Barrier Paint, Wall Vapor Retarder Coating

It's a matter of degrees in conservation, if I can keep temperatures between the inner/outer shells 2, 4 or more apart in mild weather the paint is definitely worth it. Where it will pay off best is full sun on a calm day - that is before the former insulation process!!

Gee... warmed up to 38F here now.. funny how the five stages of grief apply to Minnesota weather! (Denial Anger Bargaining Depression Acceptance) I guess I am at 'Bargaining' now, wait for 50F, then 40F.. Soon it will be above freezing feels like summer.

More later!
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Old 11-05-2011, 09:07 AM   #24
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I calculated 17.75 square foot metal-to-plywood contact area in the ladder frame & spars, outriggers and A-frame brace areas - to give 1/8" 'gasket' effect with the 10-ounce 3M 5200 would take 18 tubes. The silicone sheet material I have is 1/16" inch so nine tubes will be needed, more like all twelve since I am not a machine that can apply it perfectly - looks like I will need a couple more tubes before the job is over.
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Old 11-09-2011, 12:37 PM   #25
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3M 5200 arrived. March 2011 Date Code, so far so good.. Now to figure out how to lay out the silicone sheet and adhesive then drop floor straight down & bolt. Floor panel paint hardening up better everyday, the drips on the corners are no longer butter-soft or soft putty hardness - still not fully cured but I won't destroy the paint by installing floor or walking on it. Another small victory...
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Old 11-13-2011, 09:09 AM   #26
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Played merry hell trying to get a decent pressure washer - to get a good hot water washer from a reputable rental company would've meant an hours drive and $200-plus charges. We settled for a cold water washer w/ a supposed 5000psi ($100/day) that was too big to handle solo so rented extra hoses to reach while keeping it in the bed of the pickup, got it home and hooked up and discover the nozzles were wrong size and the quick-change adapter damaged...

A call to the rental company and it was bring it in, we'll check it out. Lets note here it was probably the last day this year in the upper-sixties and shopping rentals and getting this thing had eaten half a day already. The wooden headed manager had snapped the nozzle in as a demo, he felt how loose it was and rented the unit anyway. We returned the unit, now two more hours lost - zero apology, zero incentive offered to ever return to their business, treated condescendingly the entire time. Complacency sucks and they nested in it there like they were living on Parkplace at the Boardwalk and we'd asked them a favor!!

Exit $330 for a Generac 3000psi 2.8GPM washer. I used 1-1/2 gallons of cleaner to soak the inside of the shell. Applied cleaner and allowed to soak for 20 minutes and then applied it again for another 20-minute soak. 1-1/2 tanks of fuel later the thorough washing really brightened up the inside of the shell but did not remove the worst of the insulation spray adhesive, but did get all the over-spray, druff and oil residue from the fiberglass and all the mouse-house smell. Used a Stihl leaf blower to chase all the water out from under the ribs, wiring and hidden places, kind of like the forced air drying at the local car wash. NOTE: blot the water in the window frames out before hitting them with the leaf-blower, they were like mud puddles gray from aluminum oxide dust and what-not.

So today we start latching the floor panels down... I better start getting the tool set made up. Pictures maybe later today
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Old 11-13-2011, 10:38 PM   #27
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Prepared the silicone and laid out the method groundwork - will be caulking and potting the frame-to-floor gasket tomorrow. We did two loads of the silicone through the dishwasher with extra soaps to get all the oils and crud built up on it since it left Boeings' surplus center.

Tested the .0625" sheet pressed between an old outrigger and plywood and the drill did not catch it and spin or ball it up so I'm hoping it will be painless if/when we have to punch through the gasket with screws and bolts but will be trying to avoid that by careful placement.

Pictures.....

Doesn't look like much but thats 70~ feet of 1" and 3/4" gasket strips! The rest of it is hiding in the washer's sump where it had slithered down into... More pix to follow tomorrow.
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Old 11-14-2011, 08:33 AM   #28
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Looks great! Are you planning to brush or spray your ceramic mix?
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