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Old 05-30-2008, 09:25 PM   #253
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overlaid panels and blind vs. sold shank rivets

I've been following Kevin and Prim's thread, http://www.airforums.com/forums/f381...ter-42332.html, concerning hail damage repairs at the mother-ship, Jackson Center.

What I find interesting is the JC method of replacement of the lower front panels. Kevin discovered that those panels aren't being replaced. Instead new panels are being installed on top of the original panels. In other words double panels. See post numbers 15 and 34 of Kevin's thread. Apparently the original solid shank buck rivets are ground down and the new panels are blind riveted in place.

Now this is interesting to me because it seems I had discovered a similiar method of repair on my '75 Ambassador. Until I read Kevin's thread I hadn't figure out why the front quarter panels were doubled? I was also becoming real dizzy again trying to figure out why these double panels were installed with blind rivets. Especially since I found lots of mildew around those blind rivets and a rotten floor below.

Apparently the new panels were installed to cover up a dent in the roadside panel. The dent is clearly visible on the roadside panel viewed from the inside. I'm not sure why the curbside panel was replaced. No visible damage to the curbside panel from the inside.

Now you can see from the photos that extra, loose, ribs have been added and a new line of blind rivets added and attached to the new ribs. (In the photos it's the middle rib.) I say extra or new ribs because these "added on" ribs were not attached at either the top or bottom. Also notice that the new line of blind rivets missed the extra, add-on, ribs entirely! (In the last photo notice the new line of rivets immediately to the left of the seam.)

I suppose in my case it seems obvious that the inner skins were never removed to make this repair. I say obviously because why would the technician otherwise use so many blind rivets? And if the inner panels had been removed why did rivets miss the extra ribs entirely? I suppose, at least in this case, it can be marked off as a sloppy repair?

But in Kevin's case I'm still left wondering why is JC using blind rivets when the inner panels have been removed? Surely there is a rational explanation? Isn't this a situation where solid shank rivets seem to make more sense? Since the inner panel are out I'm definitely considering replacing the panels and the rivets with solid shanks. Or should I?
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Old 05-30-2008, 10:19 PM   #254
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Should you? Good question. Bucking rivets around those window frames is going to be a pain, especially if you haven’t done it before. On the other hand, those existing rivets I’ll bet are part of the leaks you have, just based on where they are and the way they were installed thru that old layer of Vulkem. Those look like Olympic rivets under the window frame and I’ll bet they have creased the Vulkem and are allowing water to come in. Just depends on how much work you want to put in, I suppose. You might be better off just resealing everything. I agree with you, looks like somebody did a half-acre job on that repair (mechanically, that is). It looks pretty darn good from the outside, from what little I can see.

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Old 06-01-2008, 11:28 AM   #255
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I too was somewhat mystified as to why JC would put the new lower panels over the originals. I just don't understand why this is done. I changed these panels on my GT and had no problems at all. Putting a new panel over an old just screams wrong to me, with the possibility of trapping water in between the two panels and causing corrosion.
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Old 06-01-2008, 03:06 PM   #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerowood
I too was somewhat mystified as to why JC would put the new lower panels over the originals. I just don't understand why this is done. I changed these panels on my GT and had no problems at all. Putting a new panel over an old just screams wrong to me, with the possibility of trapping water in between the two panels and causing corrosion.
Overlaying of panels saves time.

Next answer could be the installer is lazy.

Charging someone to replace a panel and then overlay it, is fraud, no matter how you look at it.

Caravanner Insurance, penalized anyone caught overlaying panels, yet billing for replacement hours.

No question, it's wrong, but there are those that would argue.

The real key is how they charged the customer for labor.

Andy
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Old 06-01-2008, 06:40 PM   #257
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panel and more panels

Overlaying panels is not a new thing. I can't say how long ago it was done, but one side of my trailer has double panles. I suspect The inside panel, the one that was covered, does not extend to the bottom. (see pictuer) It may be they just sheared off the damaged area and put another panel over the top. The rivets they used were blind, not olympic, but still with a solid head. In the pitures you can see four layers. Actually where two middle panels (window level) come together and they overlap the bottom panel, and the covered panel, including the channel, there are five layers. I did not give this much thought until I started reading about it in this thread (and a couple other parallel threads). Now I think I am going to drill all the rivets and remove the hidden panel. It can only be adding weight, a place for corrosion, and if it is in good shape (it appears to be) then it will become pieces of channel.

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Old 06-01-2008, 06:44 PM   #258
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RWB: riveting while blind

The other mystery concerning these front corners are the "loose" ribs. As you can see from the photos in post 253 there is a "loose" rib in each corner that isn't connected at the top or bottom. When the blind rivets were installed the technician missed the ribs. So those extra ribs are literally just sitting there doing nothing. My first guess was that these loose ribs were installed from the outside without removing the interior skins. A blind tech could easily miss a blind rib with a blind rivet.

On second thought that doesn't make much sense because that same blind tech would have had to remove the original panel, added the new ribs, reinstalled the old panel, then overlaid a new panel. It makes no sense as far as I can see (pun) to remove an old panel and then reinstall it and then place another panel on top of that one?

The only scenario that seems to make a little more sense is that the interior skins were removed, the loose ribs added, and then the new exterior panel overlaid on top of the old. But once again the question, why did they use blind rivets with the interior skins off? And how did the tech miss the ribs with the inner skins off when riveting in the new exterior panel?
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Old 06-01-2008, 07:41 PM   #259
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cutting corners

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In

Overlaying of panels saves time.

Andy
"I see," said the blind man!

"Saves time"...also seems to explain the blind rivet vs. solid shank conundrum.
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Old 06-01-2008, 08:01 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by FC7039
The rivets they used were blind, not olympic, but still with a solid head.
Hey FC, what do you mean "blind, not olympic?" Do you have any photos of the rivet line from the backside?
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Old 06-01-2008, 08:14 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by monocoque
Hey FC, what do you mean "blind, not olympic?" Do you have any photos of the rivet line from the backside?
The one picture of the layers shows the back side of the rivets. They have holes. If that is hard to see I can try to get better pictures.

In dismantling the trailer, I mostly attributed the many "non standard" building "techniques" as just who and when was working that day. I did not consider repairs. I know of some repairs as the aluminum is not the right kind (clad), but all the other mixed and matched pieces of assumed were just low paid wage earners slapping together the trailer.

I do know the cabinetry that the sink sat in was low skill. The front table and benches were also very low tech, mostly I view it as utilitarian. Maybe as AS made more they improved the luxury of the trailers, but my 1950 was not.
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Old 06-01-2008, 08:28 PM   #262
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Okay, I'm still learning about rivets. Haven't reached rivet master status... yet! 130 posts remaining and counting down and then I will have arrived at the magic number 5. Wizard status!

So there is a blind type rivet but not of the olympic species. Apparently blind rivets are much easier to install and will save a technician time. Although quality seems to suffer.
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Old 06-01-2008, 08:45 PM   #263
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Todd,
Did you ever determine which metal stock was stiffer? C-channel or square tubing?
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Old 06-01-2008, 08:53 PM   #264
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Todd,
Did you ever determine which metal stock was stiffer? C-channel or square tubing?
I'm not an engineer, and so my technical language (among other things) is probably wrong, but to me "stiffness" would seem to depend on the (web) thickness of the steel. Might also be based on the type or shape of the steel. Both types, tube and channel, are available in a range of thickness from thinner to thicker.
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Old 06-01-2008, 11:49 PM   #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monocoque
Okay, I'm still learning about rivets. Haven't reached rivet master status... yet! 130 posts remaining and counting down and then I will have arrived at the magic number 5. Wizard status!

So there is a blind type rivet but not of the olympic species. Apparently blind rivets are much easier to install and will save a technician time. Although quality seems to suffer.
I always wondered about what that rivet member meant. Do you need to pay money to get started?

I too know little about rivets, though I have learned some during this endeavour. Blind as I understand it, means "not bucked". Pop rivets are a brand name of blind rivets. I am sure there are more types than I care to know. The type I mentioned in my trailer used to lay one panel over the other, for what ever reason, I take to have been blind as they appear to have a pulled center, thus creating the hollow shaft. The head though, and I am sure many years of aging helps, you cannot tell they are not the original rivets.
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Old 06-02-2008, 12:15 AM   #266
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FC7039 - Rivets are earned based upon the number of posts you make. Currently you are a two rivet member. Yours do not show because you selected a custom user title in your profile. There is no charge for this feature.

Olympic Rivets are blind rivets except they have a solid shaft which allows the head to be finished to look like the original bucked rivets. When you look at the back side of an Olympic you will see three legs holding it in place where a pop rivet expands it's body to secure it.
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