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Old 04-30-2008, 11:44 AM   #169
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Todd,

If you will not have access that allows you to use elevator bolts I think that self-drilling self-tapping screws should work. They are less likely to pop loose with the thicker frame metal that you are using than they would be with the thiner metal of the original style cross members. I bought my screws at Home Depot. I have attached a photo of the two sizes of screws that I bought that shows the product name and sizes. You might want to consider using just the longer ones in the photo for more thread. I only used these for places where the floor was thicker because of the fender wells being under the floor. You can see that the longer screws are for securing material that is 3/4" plus thick while the shorter ones are for securing material that is 3/4" and less. Also for the thicker metal you are using you might find that it is a good idea to drill a pilot hole before you run the screw in. I did not have to for the normal cross members but I did for the heavier angle iron over the water tank.

Malcolm
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Old 04-30-2008, 01:57 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by byamcaravanner
Todd,

It looks like you decided to go with tubes for the cross members also... are you foregoing the use of elevator bolts? Although that makes the floor easier to install, I think you will find that the wafer head screws will "pop" over time.

Looks like you are making great progress!
Steve, what do you mean by pop? I see what you mean about the elevator bolts in the extreme rear and the elevator bolts in the extreme front. I won't be able to use them because of the tubing. I hadn't considered that. Elevator bolts along the sides will work because there I'm using channel.
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Old 04-30-2008, 02:07 PM   #171
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susceptible to pop

Quote:
Originally Posted by malconium
Todd,

If you will not have access that allows you to use elevator bolts I think that self-drilling self-tapping screws should work. They are less likely to pop loose with the thicker frame metal that you are using than they would be with the thiner metal of the original style cross members. I bought my screws at Home Depot. I have attached a photo of the two sizes of screws that I bought that shows the product name and sizes. You might want to consider using just the longer ones in the photo for more thread. I only used these for places where the floor was thicker because of the fender wells being under the floor. You can see that the longer screws are for securing material that is 3/4" plus thick while the shorter ones are for securing material that is 3/4" and less. Also for the thicker metal you are using you might find that it is a good idea to drill a pilot hole before you run the screw in. I did not have to for the normal cross members but I did for the heavier angle iron over the water tank.

Malcolm
Malcolm & Steve, you both have raised a very good point. One that I missed. I'm glad you pointed it out. I wonder if I should have the welder cut-out part of the tube in the front and in the back so I can use the elevator bolts? Actually I don't think the extreme front cross-member is attached yet. So possibly I could still use channel in that location. On the other hand most of the elevator bolts had completely rusted through on my rig and "somehow" it was remaining attached! Since the tube is much more stable do you think it'll still be susceptible to pop?
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Old 04-30-2008, 02:58 PM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monocoque
I wonder if I should have the welder cut-out part of the tube in the front and in the back so I can use the elevator bolts?
If you want to install elevator bolts why not just have your welder put some small angle iron clips (say 1-1/2" angle x 1/8" thick and 1-1/2" wide) at strategic points with the 1/4" hole already drilled into them for the bolts? That way you will not weaken your tubing and the additional weight would not be much.
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Old 04-30-2008, 03:09 PM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monocoque
I won't be able to use them because of the tubing. I hadn't considered that. Elevator bolts along the sides will work because there I'm using channel.
Confirmation that you have reached information overload... check out these posts in this thread about two weeks ago.

The clips that Vhord suggests would work fine and would be cheaper that cutting holes in the tubes. At the outriggers the elevator bolts will still work because the end of the tube is open.

Thanks for a great thread.
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Old 04-30-2008, 03:53 PM   #174
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Todd,

Frankly I would be very suprised if the self-drilling self-tapping screws like what I showed in the photo would pop (come loose) over time. I could believe that they might for the thiner metal of the original cross members but not for the thicker metal that you are using for your tubing. Again predrill the pilot holes and I think you should be just fine using elevator bolts where you have access and the screws where you dont. Some of my old floor was held down with screws and I had a hard time getting them out.

Putting angle brackets on the frame would tend to be in the wrong places too since the plywood joints would fall on the middle of the cross-members. If you really need to have elevator bolts then you could perhaps drill access holes in the tubing that are large enough to slip in the head of an air drive socket wrench to tighten the nut on the bottom end of an elevator bolt. In my opinion welding on extra stuff is just not necessary. Also I happen to think that the most important attachment points are the ones around the edges of the floor where the body is directly above. The outrigger attachment points for sure can be elevator bolts.

Malcolm
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Old 04-30-2008, 05:50 PM   #175
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elevator bolts and cross-members versus outriggers

Quote:
Originally Posted by byamcaravanner
Confirmation that you have reached information overload... check out these posts in this thread about two weeks ago.

The clips that Vhord suggests would work fine and would be cheaper that cutting holes in the tubes. At the outriggers the elevator bolts will still work because the end of the tube is open.

Thanks for a great thread.
Steve, I admit to reaching critical mass on all the information that's been pouring in! And this project has been moving really fast! I hope it keeps pouring in and moving fast too!

I definitely didn't think far enough ahead about the implications of using the tube especially concerning the cross-members. At the time, for some reason, I was thinking more about using elevator bolts through the outriggers rather than the elevator bolts through the cross-members. That's one of the reasons we decided to use channel for outriggers.

Concerning the cross-members: during the shell-removal, I found two bolts with nuts and a large square steel washer in the rear most floor channel above the rear-most cross-member. I also found a similiar set-up in the foremost cross-member.

The outriggers, however, employ was I think is being referred to as "elevator bolts." These type bolts actually have a flat round head on the bottom-side of the bolt. No fitting on that end for wrenchs or drivers! These type bolts are difficult to remove, except with a dremmel, if the nut is rusted because there is nothing to secure the flat round head.

In my situation the forward most cross-member is actually a piece of flat bar welded to the A-frame. So I won't have a problem using a bolt, nut, and large square steel washer in that area.

However, the rear-most cross-member using 5 inch tube has already been welded into place. I'm not sure about Vernon's suggestion to weld in clips? Where exactly would such a clip be welded to secure the floor channel?
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Old 04-30-2008, 06:02 PM   #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malconium
Todd,

Frankly I would be very suprised if the self-drilling self-tapping screws like what I showed in the photo would pop (come loose) over time. I could believe that they might for the thiner metal of the original cross members but not for the thicker metal that you are using for your tubing. Again predrill the pilot holes and I think you should be just fine using elevator bolts where you have access and the screws where you dont. Some of my old floor was held down with screws and I had a hard time getting them out.

Putting angle brackets on the frame would tend to be in the wrong places too since the plywood joints would fall on the middle of the cross-members. If you really need to have elevator bolts then you could perhaps drill access holes in the tubing that are large enough to slip in the head of an air drive socket wrench to tighten the nut on the bottom end of an elevator bolt. In my opinion welding on extra stuff is just not necessary. Also I happen to think that the most important attachment points are the ones around the edges of the floor where the body is directly above. The outrigger attachment points for sure can be elevator bolts.

Malcolm
I really don't want to cut access holes into the tube although it's a possibility. I'm thinking moisture would begin accumulating inside the tube so then I would also need to drill seep holes? What do you think about welding the shaft of a bolt to the cross-member. These would push up through the floor channel and be secured with square washers and nuts? Ultimately I think you're right and the self-taping screws will be plenty strong in this one area. You should see this 5 inch tube. One of the guys standing around watching the welding said it seemed strong enough to launch an airplane from it. He's right.
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Old 04-30-2008, 06:08 PM   #177
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How about using a metal strap bent around the tube, ( like a "c" with long ends on the ends of the "c") flatening on one side? You could put a bolt through the wood, and cinch the other side with a bolt? Maybe two per crossmember with the pop screws? Kind of belt and suspenders I'm sure.

2 cents!
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Old 04-30-2008, 08:06 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by monocoque
However, the rear-most cross-member using 5 inch tube has already been welded into place. I'm not sure about Vernon's suggestion to weld in clips? Where exactly would such a clip be welded to secure the floor channel?
My suggestion dealt with the elevator bolts away from the wall c-channels. Those should be accessable from the open ends of the outriggers. I was suggesting that the clips be put on the sides of the crossmembers so that the floor could be secured to them. At the plywood splices you would need to put clips on both sides of the crossmembers.

I have observed that these "interior" elevator bolts or screws will experience a lot of stress. I only have my rear (both) section of floor in and have not inserted the E-bolts yet. Just sitting idle with no road bumps the center of my 3/4" MG plywood has probably bowed up 3/4"! I plan to suck it down tomorrow with elevator bolts.
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Old 04-30-2008, 08:23 PM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vhord
My suggestion dealt with the elevator bolts away from the wall c-channels. Those should be accessable from the open ends of the outriggers. I was suggesting that the clips be put on the sides of the crossmembers so that the floor could be secured to them. At the plywood splices you would need to put clips on both sides of the crossmembers.

I have observed that these "interior" elevator bolts or screws will experience a lot of stress. I only have my rear (both) section of floor in and have not inserted the E-bolts yet. Just sitting idle with no road bumps the center of my 3/4" MG plywood has probably bowed up 3/4"! I plan to suck it down tomorrow with elevator bolts.
Vernon, okay I see what you mean. The only elevator-type bolts on my trailer were contained inside the wall-channel. I didn't find any elevator bolts outside the wall-channel. The floor in my case is screwed to the cross-members and outriggers using self-tapping type screws rather than elevator bolts. But I can see how bolts rather than screws would be helpful to secure flooring that bows up or buckles.

On the new frame some of the cross-members I choose to fabricate out of 4 inch channel rather than tube. I used the 4 inch channel the replace cross-members that were shorter to allow for floor-splices. Since I used 4 inch channel in those places and the main rails are 5 inches my floor splices will need to be out of 1 inch material. So it looks like I'll have extra strong floor splices.
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Old 04-30-2008, 09:35 PM   #180
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You could always use NAS5149 428-16P countersunk threaded screws with countersunk, large area washers A3475-028-24A with locktight in holes drilled and taped to 1/4 28 treads and be done with it
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Old 04-30-2008, 09:36 PM   #181
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New frame, new floor. It ain't going to get any better than this! I look forward to seeing your pictures of your frame and more. Good luck and I look forward to your progress.
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Old 04-30-2008, 09:52 PM   #182
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You could always use NAS5149 428-16P countersunk threaded screws with countersunk, large area washers A3475-028-24A with locktight in holes drilled and taped to 1/4 28 treads and be done with it
Kip, I'm not familiar with these type screws and washers. What would be the advantage of using them in this case?
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