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Old 11-27-2019, 08:17 AM   #1
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Frame Flex as Designed

Frame flex? Here is my question:

How much droop would be expected at the rear of a 31' Sovereign with support only from the axles?

Let's say the trailer is parked on level concrete. Let's say we measure from the bottom of the frame rails to the concrete in several places from the front of the frame rails to the rear. Let's say the axles are the baseline measurement.

Would you be surprised if the rear of the trailer frame rails were 2" lower than the frame rails at the axles? Is this significant sag? I really don't know what to expect.

We are renovating a 76 Sovereign 31'. I believe this is the first year of the additional 1x2 steel rectangular tubing running lengthwise and parallel to the 5" frame rails. I believe it is the first year of the 1/2" plywood subfloor. We have added axle plate stiffeners and angle iron frame rail flange supports with the frame leveled to the concrete floor.

We have the Sovereign supported on jackstands and the tongue jack with the frame rails 24" from the concrete floor, both sides. The jack stands are on the lower frame rail about 6" behind the rear axle. We have additional screw jacks at the front and rear of the frame for additional support. The rear of the body is well attached to the new rear crossmember.

We release the screw jacks and see the frame sag maybe 2". Is this "normal"? Should an Airstream monocoque frame, subfloor, and body assembly be expected to maintain level?

Thanks for your insight to our question.

David
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Old 11-27-2019, 10:13 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbj216 View Post
Frame flex? Here is my question:

How much droop would be expected at the rear of a 31' Sovereign with support only from the axles?

Let's say the trailer is parked on level concrete. Let's say we measure from the bottom of the frame rails to the concrete in several places from the front of the frame rails to the rear. Let's say the axles are the baseline measurement.

Would you be surprised if the rear of the trailer frame rails were 2" lower than the frame rails at the axles? Is this significant sag? I really don't know what to expect.

We are renovating a 76 Sovereign 31'. I believe this is the first year of the additional 1x2 steel rectangular tubing running lengthwise and parallel to the 5" frame rails. I believe it is the first year of the 1/2" plywood subfloor. We have added axle plate stiffeners and angle iron frame rail flange supports with the frame leveled to the concrete floor.

We have the Sovereign supported on jackstands and the tongue jack with the frame rails 24" from the concrete floor, both sides. The jack stands are on the lower frame rail about 6" behind the rear axle. We have additional screw jacks at the front and rear of the frame for additional support. The rear of the body is well attached to the new rear crossmember.

We release the screw jacks and see the frame sag maybe 2". Is this "normal"? Should an Airstream monocoque frame, subfloor, and body assembly be expected to maintain level?

Thanks for your insight to our question.

David
My Overlander had massive flex, like 5" overall.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f109...tml#post966251
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Old 11-27-2019, 11:00 AM   #3
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Hi HiHo: Thank you very kindly for sharing your experiences with your Overlander frame. I bet your build thread would be a very fun read judging from the few posts you linked for me.

So I have deemed you an Airstream frame expert. Do you have any idea how much rear end droop you had after you got your Overlander completed?

I have the wife's 86 Limited 34'on jackstands in her shop. The tires are off the pavement. I will level the trailer from tongue jack to axle mounting plate as measured from the floor to the bottom of the frame rails. Then I will measure the rear of the trailer. I wonder if there is any droop, or sag, to her trailer that does not have rear end separation. I'll report the results of my little test.

Maybe Airstreams are designed to flex like a airliner's wing does.

David
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Old 11-27-2019, 01:54 PM   #4
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Well my 31 foot 81 Excella frame dropped about an inch when it was not attached to the shell. Mine had doubled up 5" Channel inside of each other which I assume was and up grade from the single 5" channel. 2 inch seems a bit large but with a single 5" channel maybe not since it is only half as stiff. It is what it is and if there are no cracks or other defects, don't worry about it. Main thing is so increase the connection to the shell and add stiffeners in the C-channel to give screws more to hold on to. Make sure the rear hold down plate in intact. The shell is very strong if it is properly attached to the frame but Airstream did not do a good job with this.





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Old 11-27-2019, 03:36 PM   #5
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Make sure the floor is level. Affordable laser levels are wonderful, aren't they?
Might be a good idea to run one down both main beams to see whether they sag equally or one is worse.
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Old 11-27-2019, 05:28 PM   #6
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Hello, I'm new here but I wanted to weigh in on your question. We've put a new frame under a 31' 1973 Sovereign. We used 2x5", 11ga, tube for the length, and 10ga for the tongue. The frame itself flexed quite a bit even under its own weight. I want to say it was about 2" though we never measured it. I was concerned about this as well for a long time, but after taking a trip down to the airstream factory and seeing how they join the shell and frame and how much flex the frames have... my fears were relieved. When they join them, they support the frame along the entire length and make it square and true. This is what we did with ours. We used lasers to level everything across the entire frame. What turns out to work better, however was a water level. Just get 35' of 1/2" clear tube and fill it with water with food coloring and hold it up to various points on the frame. We started side to side at the axles, then moved to the tongue, then the rear, and then as things flexed, and straightened and flexed and straightened... we eventually got it all supported. I think we used 2x6" boards under the rear, middle, and between the tongue and axles. Anyhow, we set the shell on top the frame and installed the plywood into the channels. Then we drilled holes through the new frame up into the shell and bolted it all together. Here's the magic part... remember the sag I mentioned that the frame had by itself? And the flexing and straightening when we were leveling and plumbing the frame? I lowered a single jack 1/4" and it was free... the shell holds everything so straight and true. I was honestly amazed. We had a dozen jacks and stands under it and the wheels on one side were off the ground (it couldn't be avoided sadly). Suffice it to say, the rear end of the frame does NOT sag anymore. If it does it isn't noticeable either outside or inside.

I'm not an expert, this is my first restoration, but I hope this is helpful. We did the best we could. I've read a number of times that the shell carries the weight of the frame and after having removed a badly destroyed frame from under the shell, and then putting a new frame back under it... it's obvious to me now as well. Cheers and good luck!
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Old 11-27-2019, 07:29 PM   #7
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I had to rebuild the front 4’ of floor on our 34’. I blocked up under the frame 1/2 way between the axles and the tongue jack. Then I lowered the tongue jack and the front frame dropped enough to insert a new sheet of ply.
Truly the shell holds up the frame, it’s really floppy
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Old 11-27-2019, 07:36 PM   #8
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Yes - frame goes wiggly w/o shell attached, two inches on a 31' sounds healthy. Remember the 'frame' is 'just' the axle attaching bracket, the real work is done by the luminum shell holding everything taut.

And... Joe Somewhen tried curbside lifting my 27' on the frame a healthy ways back from the wheel & put a small pleat / dimple / crease in the 'C' steel. (EDIT: fine, benefit of the doubt, could've been a horrible leveling / hitch jack incident or whatever).

Then fast forward to my shell off and I'm wondering why the curbside bumper mounts hangs 1-1/2 to 2"" lower than street side, depending on tides and prevailing wind...

D'oh!, lookey there.. A pleat! Sometime later after massaging it with a 15" crescent wrench and a 3lb hand sledge (no heating) I felt lucky to have gotten it to 3/4" +/-...
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Old 11-27-2019, 07:37 PM   #9
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I leveled and measured the wife's 86 Limited 34' this afternoon. I did use my little laser measuring device, which I find better than trying to measure a bent tape measure. Her Limited has about 1" sag from the rear axle to the rear bumper.

After we welded in new steel where we thought the frame was weak, buckled, and cracked; I figured the 3" sag would be greatly reduced. We released the supports and measured 2" sag. The rear of the body was not well attached at the time.

So I busied myself and firmly attached the rear of the body to the new body plate we made, which is bolted to the new rear cross member we made. I also have all the rusted outriggers replaced and the body firmly bolted to them. We did this with the trailer frame level to the floor.

I released the supports and we still have apparent sag. I expected none. I don't yet know the total rear end sag yet. After the holiday we will release the rear supports and measure the total sag from axle plate to rear bumper.

You bet a 5x2 rectangular tube is more rigid than a C channel. And you are right, the Airstream body is strong and does holds up the frame. It is all part of that monocoque design that Airstream has used almost forever.

You folks have been helpful. Based on my level and measure of my wife's trailer, I can live with a 1" sag on the Sovereign. We will figure out if and where we need additional strength in this old Sovereign frame.

David
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Old 11-27-2019, 07:43 PM   #10
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I would say it has a lot to do with how the frame was put together. If you want a straight frame the assembly would need to take into account the loading down the frame and then build in an upswing to counter the weight that will spring the steel down.

Even if one were to build a frame by setting the materials perfectly level but then not pay attention to the method of welding and fastening it together the frame will not likely stay level.

The frame I have has continuous welds. If those were put in without stitch welds to counter the bending forces due to the heating then the frames would want to bend towards the continuous weld. Can't say if this is the case for your droop. I wouldn't hang my hat on the idea that the aluminum skin is going to hold the frame level. It is quite possible that frames with higher droop contribute to rear separation.
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Old 11-27-2019, 07:48 PM   #11
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I didn't volunteer this information in my first post, but I did have some 1/4" steel plates welded along side the axles that extend towards the rear. From memory they're about 8' total, and they stiffen up the rear significantly. I'll see if I can find a picture.
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Old 11-27-2019, 08:18 PM   #12
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Thank you guys: Airstream certainly has the axle mounting plate welded to the side of the frame rails. The axle plate in mid seventies trailers have D shaped holes stamped in it to make it lighter I'm told. It also made it weaker.

Airstream also used a 3" c channel about 3/16" thick along the rear 48 inches of the frame. This served as additional room for the waste water tanks as well as adding stiffening to the rear of the frame. It is similar to what you are showing in your photos.

We have added angle iron stitch welded to the top frame rail flange. Maybe we need to weld one to the bottom frame rail flange from this long "skid angle" to the axle plate to help reduce frame sag. We do know from our measurements that all of the frame sag is from the rear of the axle plate to the rear of the frame.

David
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Old 11-28-2019, 10:31 AM   #13
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Funny, I never thought about droop or fram flex-but when you think about it there is about 10' hanging out in nowhere - now I'm curious, when I get Blue Streak home on level concrete I'll check this out
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Old 11-28-2019, 11:01 AM   #14
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I would say that no sag is normal.

My 72 had sag, so i hooked the trailer to my tow vehicle and used a big bottle jack to aggressively lift the aft end of each frame rail until each one stayed level after the jack was removed.

After that I welded a 3" angle to the bottom of the frame that extended somewhat beyond the axles. (this gave me a 3" lift also)

So far so good, the trailer isn't sagging after several years of hard use.

These fames typically bend at the slot that accepts the rear axle. a reinforcement there goes a long way to eliminating rear sag.
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Old 11-28-2019, 07:17 PM   #15
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The rear frame rails are like diving boards. They are supported by the axle plate, and they are supported by the body. Somewhat like a suspension bridge where the cables support the roadway, or a truss bridge where the framework supports the roadway.

I have relaxed the rear supports and I have observed more than an inch of sag with the rear of the body well attached to the frame. The frame rails are still flexing too much. Why the body isn't doing it's job I don't know.

J Morgan: you are right. We see buckling of the axle plate aft of the rear axle slot. We did similar to what you did. We jacked up the rear frame rails until they were straight and level. Then we welded stiffeners to the frame by welding a 2x3 by 1/4" thick angle iron below the frame rail to stiffen it on both sides. We corrected the buckling of the lower axle plate while the metal was hot using a big c-clamp, then continued welding. The pocket you see is for the new axle mounting bracket, which certainly adds stiffness to the axle plate. The axle bracket will set on the frame rail plus 1/4" new steel. (I used sheet metal screws to hold the new parts in place for the welder. The screws will be removed.) See photo.

I think we should have gone farther with the angle iron, maybe two feet beyond the axle plate. Here is a photo of what I did.

Oh well, we'll figure it out.

David
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Old 11-28-2019, 09:08 PM   #16
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A note on the perforated axle support plate -

Rust had increasingly wedged the gap open on mine, muffed repairs on the solid wheel tub closeout outriggers and light duty tack welds holding outriggers ONLY to the perforated plate (which only was tack welded itself) had allowed the floor to sag up to 5/8, 3/4" along the outside edge - I had to cut out those outriggers and relieve new ones to follow the bulge to get the floor level side-to-side, a weld at floor level to 'C' framing to lock them in place...

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Old 11-28-2019, 11:15 PM   #17
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Great information. When dealing with "rear end sag," the factory jacks up the rear cross frame at each corner and then goes to work restoring all the distorted materialsnd, and adding large steel gussets. In the end it is all straight again. Level? I don't know, but it looks like the original. In the mean time they check for frame cracks up front because that had been repaired before. No new cracks. Yes the shell and frame are one unit and the flex a lot more than people realize. If you ever rode in the back end of an empty Boeing 747 you would have a perfect mental picture of an Airstream in transit, twisting, bending, and flexing all over. Also, Boeing built the earlier model B-52s so that the wings flexed 33 feet in turbulence, but it sure was a smoother ride. The beauty of monocoque construction is its ability to flex and not fail. Like the engineers say, if only one part fails all the rest are over designed. The latest Boing 777X just had a ultimate load test failure so close to the design limit of 150% they are not even calling it a failure. So obviously our Airstreams are over designed for the most part.
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Old 11-29-2019, 08:50 PM   #18
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We have replaced 8 outriggers, all welded square to the frame rail. We have noticed the floor between the frame rail and body channel after the wheel well sags toward the outside maybe an inch. That old outrigger seems bent down a bit, maybe like Wabbiter's trailer. We will order a new one and weld it square. I don't know yet it is due to the frame rail actually twisting, or the body putting too much downward pressure on that outrigger due to the frame rail being separated from the body at the rear.

We have also discovered a 1/4" plywood floor sag between the cross members on each side of the fresh water tank. The plywood is tight to the 1x2 supports and the frame rails. It appears the frame was having trouble holding up the 350 pound fresh water tank, the fridge, the stove, the battery and the galley cabinets all located between these two crossmembers. And of course the galley is where we 200 pound humans often stand to get beer out of the fridge.

An Airstream frame looks simple enough, but it really is confusing when you consider all the elements. How much a broken outrigger affects the system I really don't know. Further, we plan on hanging about 40 gallons of waste water on the rear most of the frame, or roughly 250 pounds of water weight. I guess that isn't much different than my friend standing back there working away.

David
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Old 12-04-2019, 04:41 PM   #19
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When you see the complete frame you realize there isn't much structure there. My 31' sagged quite a bit so I added plates between each x-member to box the frame channels.
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Old 12-04-2019, 08:31 PM   #20
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I believe in 1976 Airstream changed the design of the frame. They added 1x2 stringers from the rear to the front of the trailer. These stringers give extra floor support for the flimsy 1/2" plywood they used then.

We added angle iron below and above the frame rail flanges to add stiffness to the axle plate and rear frame rails.

Airstream did box in a few sections of the 1976 frame in front of the axles. It does look quite a bit stronger. Too bad they didn't continue aft of the axle plate where additional strength would have been nice.

David
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