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Old 01-18-2006, 02:27 PM   #121
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Lower wall section diagrom

In this diagram you can see the bluish "Dura Cool" filter material in the outside air space. This material is rigid enough to help keep the space between the outside shell and the "Reflectix" insulation foam in place. It also has an amazing freedom of air flow through it. This will be sealed around the edges with caulking. The "Reflectix" will also be caulked around the edges to provide a seal. The small vent that is placed in the outside skin is a kitchen sink faucet aerator. It has a fine screen in it to prevent bugs from entering the space. It is my plan to include LED lighting in each of these vents. They will provide extra clearance ,decorative, lighting.
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Old 01-18-2006, 02:40 PM   #122
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Top Wall Circulation Diagrom

Next is the modification to the top vent area of Airstreams. I was looking for a way to allow the air form the outside air, of the wall, space to escape to the outside air. This presented several problems. 1. Making more hole in the outside of the trailer could only lead to more water leaks. And I didn't see any way to control these vents without major modifications. I tried to keep in mind the KISS principle. 2. The existing vent could provide some control. 3. the facet aerators could easily be covered with a plastic or rubber cap to gain control. Following are diagrams of the modifications to the top vent area. The facet aerators will also have LED lighting for mood.
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Old 01-18-2006, 02:47 PM   #123
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Insulation diagram explanation

In the diagrams both the "Reflectix" and the "Dura Cool" have been moved back to allow good view of the parts and their insulation. In the actual insulation both products will fill the extire area.
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Old 01-18-2006, 02:58 PM   #124
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How does it work?

Here is how I hope it will work. First winter time, The inside of the trailer is heated. When it is cold enough outside to cause condensation the top vent should be opened just a crack. As the hot air from the inside of the trailer raises out of the vent it will move past the faucet vents and cause a slight vacuum. This vacuum will draw air and moisture from the outer wall space and hopefully help reduce condensation. This should also work when the sun is shining on the outside of the trailer. The heated air in the space will rise and escape through the vent. Small rubber caps can be placed over the faucet ends to seal and stop the air flow when desired. I am currently working on some diagrams to explain how this system may provide some solar heating as well. They will come later.

I will appreciate you thought and or ideas.
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Old 01-18-2006, 02:59 PM   #125
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start on post 144

Move down 6 posts to follow my progression.
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Old 01-19-2006, 11:21 AM   #126
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Wow, that is a great airstream flipper you have, I want one! I spent a good couple weeks on my back sticking insulation up into the bottom cavity and shaping, then the belly pan... It will be so much easier upside down like you have it.


I am interested in the Dura Cool material - is it rigid? Expensive? How will you attach the dura cool to the wall and the reflectix to the dura cool?

I used reflectix... When I was rebuilding I was able to see the amount of condensation on the ceiling in the morning - when I started putting in the insulation I realized only the inside-most layer would have condensation - so if reflectix was installed I would get condensation on the surface of the insulation, but if I peeled it back I would have no condensation in that trapped air space. I am not sure what to think of this - I thought maybe the trapped air space was fairly vapor-stable and didn't have that much moisture - or that it was temperature buffered (the outside airspace would be enough like the outside temperature).

I am still not sure what to make of that but think I have a LOT less condensation on my wood interior than I would on an aluminum interior. Only my rivets condense water. Is your main concern for the rotting of the edges of your floorboards?

Anyway, I like your operation here - I think this forum is full of researchers and it is fun to watch.

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Old 01-19-2006, 03:01 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcferguson
Wow, that is a great airstream flipper you have, I want one! I spent a good couple weeks on my back sticking insulation up into the bottom cavity and shaping, then the belly pan... It will be so much easier upside down like you have it.


I am interested in the Dura Cool material - is it rigid? Expensive? How will you attach the dura cool to the wall and the reflectix to the dura cool?

I used reflectix... When I was rebuilding I was able to see the amount of condensation on the ceiling in the morning - when I started putting in the insulation I realized only the inside-most layer would have condensation - so if reflectix was installed I would get condensation on the surface of the insulation, but if I peeled it back I would have no condensation in that trapped air space. I am not sure what to think of this - I thought maybe the trapped air space was fairly vapor-stable and didn't have that much moisture - or that it was temperature buffered (the outside airspace would be enough like the outside temperature).

I am still not sure what to make of that but think I have a LOT less condensation on my wood interior than I would on an aluminum interior. Only my rivets condense water. Is your main concern for the rotting of the edges of your floorboards?

Anyway, I like your operation here - I think this forum is full of researchers and it is fun to watch.

Carlos Ferguson
Did you leave a dead air space on both sides of the reflectix? How did you attach your materials to the walls? We used to have an other brand motor home. It had wood on the inside. After 15 years it just began to fall apart everywhere. I know think that it was because the wood was continually soaking up and giving off the water vapor in the inside. At the time I though it was a few water leaks from the outside that was causing it to rot apart. Alter seeing how much water can accumulate inside an aluminum trailer I'm beginning to wonder if the condensation was causing just as much of the problem. The wood that was on the inside of out Bambi also shows the signs of water damage. The grain of the wood has lost its seal and the grain has raised in many areas. This raising of the grain allowed the water vapor to attach the wood. I guess what I'm leading up to is that reducing the affect of water vapor in out trailers is an important part of making them last regardless of the material used in their construction. Also I need to do some resurch on the Dura Cool material. I have been unable to find any information on line about this product. I may have the wrong name.
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Old 01-19-2006, 05:04 PM   #128
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I put an airspace on both sides - I construction adhesived foam spacers to the skin, then put in the reflectix (also with construction adhesive) then another airspace, then cork spacers on my ribs, then my interior wood. The wood has 3 coats of poly on the backside to help protect it from water... time will tell, which is the problem with all of this. I guess if I get 15-20 years I will be ready for another project! Let us know about the filter material when you get more information.

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Old 01-19-2006, 06:20 PM   #129
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Don, I like the idea of the double insulation method you describe. The Dura Cool looks promising. I also like the idea of venting out the top of the existing vents in the camper. That was the part of this idea that I couldn't understand until you made these most recent posts.

I wonder if the idea of the faucet screens on the outside of the trailer would be better on the inside of the trailer. By placing the screens on the outside, won't you be intruducing excess water vaper into the walls? Of course, the convective flow you are looking for will be much more easily created by using the flow from the "outside bottom" to the "inside top." But is it possible that introducing cool interior air at the floor level will be moved upward by the heated air in the walls toward the roofline vents? Would it be possible leave a small airspace at the bottom of the insulation and another at the top to allow free air flow? Would that defeat the purpose of the insulation? Just thinking out load right now because I haven't thought this all the way thru. More tomorrow after I've "slept on it"

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Old 01-19-2006, 09:40 PM   #130
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Quote:
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Don, I like the idea of the double insulation method you describe. The Dura Cool looks promising. I also like the idea of venting out the top of the existing vents in the camper. That was the part of this idea that I couldn't understand until you made these most recent posts.

I wonder if the idea of the faucet screens on the outside of the trailer would be better on the inside of the trailer. By placing the screens on the outside, won't you be intruducing excess water vaper into the walls? Of course, the convective flow you are looking for will be much more easily created by using the flow from the "outside bottom" to the "inside top." But is it possible that introducing cool interior air at the floor level will be moved upward by the heated air in the walls toward the roofline vents? Would it be possible leave a small airspace at the bottom of the insulation and another at the top to allow free air flow? Would that defeat the purpose of the insulation? Just thinking out load right now because I haven't thought this all the way thru. More tomorrow after I've "slept on it"

Jim
The faucet screens on the outside or inside is a question I've asked myself several times. Part of my reason for throwing the question our there is to get feed back and see what you all think. If someone out there has some related experience that would be helpful also. I also thinking that this system might have possibilities for Solar heating in a few limited situations. I will be posting some drawing on that soon. I would appreciate any thoughts you might have on that also.
Thanks Don
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Old 01-21-2006, 10:16 PM   #131
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For rivets try your phone book or Dexonline.com for a Fastenal Store in your area. They have a great selection of sizes including some with a one inch head which are great for repairing the belly pan
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Old 01-23-2006, 10:49 AM   #132
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External Skin space/Solar heating?

Well here is my next, maybe, hair brained idea. By causing a different circulation pattern in my insulation system design, I may be able to use it for heating in some limited situations. Maybe in the mornings with the sun beating on one side of the trailer. With the top vent open it may also work to remove the buildup of heat on hot days. Let me know what you think. I have included a diagram to attempt to explain the idea.
Thanks for your input, Don
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Old 01-26-2006, 05:39 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCal Bambi
In this diagram you can see the bluish "Dura Cool" filter material in the outside air space. This material is rigid enough to help keep the space between the outside shell and the "Reflectix" insulation foam in place. It also has an amazing freedom of air flow through it. This will be sealed around the edges with caulking. The "Reflectix" will also be caulked around the edges to provide a seal. The small vent that is placed in the outside skin is a kitchen sink faucet aerator. It has a fine screen in it to prevent bugs from entering the space. It is my plan to include LED lighting in each of these vents. They will provide extra clearance ,decorative, lighting.
Don,
Sorry I have been off line for a week or so. Had to attend a 4- day trade show, from which I am still decompressing. Then the obligatory head cold after the show, and you know the rest...
Anyways, I think that all your ideas look excellent. I will study some more of your drawings and diagrams, and let you know if I see any boogers in the design process.
Congratulations, Don, you are taking preventative steps to a whole new level.
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Old 01-26-2006, 05:48 PM   #134
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Don,

I would not ventilate to the outside. Too many points of possible water entry.
Remember, you will be driving this thing, not just parking it, I hope. therefore, driving inteh rain at 50mph is different from sitting in rain, even if it is driving rain.
If anything, ventilate through the wood into the bellypan. There you have quiet air to draw from if necessary. Your vent could also be a drain for the c-chanel, should water accumulate inside.
I am going to vent to the inside, through 2in holes covered with a frame with screening over it.
I would also not vent from the outside to the inside, since this would mess up your R-value, no?
The aerators are a great idea, but very small.I have stainless cover blanks in the ceiling, which will be perforated and then covered with mesh from behind.
Simple ventilation is really all you need to prevent corrosion and mold.
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Old 01-26-2006, 07:06 PM   #135
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Some of the same questions

Uwe, thanks for your response. I have had some of the same questions as I was working on the design. One day I think its a good idea and the next I think its bad. Maybe mother nature is just bigger than we are, and things are not meant to last forever. Cold metal and humid warm air are going to produce condensation. Part of it is I like to try and find a solution for a problem. I have a question. It seems to me that if warm moist air from inside the trailer is circulated inside the walls next to cold metal, that will produce a condensation problem as well. Can you explain or share some diagrams about your plan. I will continue to work on ideas along this line of thinking. It will be some time yet before I have to make a final decision. I was hoping for response from others as well. Maybe more will come. Glad to hear you survived the trade show. They are a great experience, but can take almost all ones energy.
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Old 01-26-2006, 07:10 PM   #136
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Change of mind

update: I was going to reuse the belly skins on my Bambi, However after working with them I decided they are too brittle. I was able to find some aluminum sheet that are painted white on one side and clear on the other side. It will cost me $125 to replace the aluminum. That doesn't seem too bad. Plus it will look great!
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Old 01-26-2006, 08:26 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCal Bambi
......Cold metal and humid warm air are going to produce condensation. Part of it is I like to try and find a solution for a problem. I have a question. It seems to me that if warm moist air from inside the trailer is circulated inside the walls next to cold metal, that will produce a condensation problem as well........
Don
I completely agree with this idea. My problem here in 'ol Jawga is that even this time of year, atmospheric humidity is measured by the quart per cubic inch. Here, it's more of a problem when the camper is sitting idle in the backyard, not necessarily when we are camping and creating heat inside the trailer. I think in my instance, the vents should be placed on the lower part of the inner walls. In that manner, the warmer air trapped inside the walls will move the cooler, moister air inside the camper toward the top of the wall to the vent area.

Uwe, I like the idea of venting the belly pan up thru the walls as you suggested. The early '70's era trailers leak badly into the belly pan. I can mitigate that some, but water is going to get to belly pan.

Thanks to both of you two, Don and Uwe, your ideas now have my meager thoughts headed in the right direction (finally).
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Old 01-26-2006, 09:07 PM   #138
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Quote:
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Maybe mother nature is just bigger than we are, and things are not meant to last forever. Don
I think that sums it up quite well. Not that we should ignore the obvious, and use this for an excuse of poor engineering, but there has to be a point where the positive effects of a change to the original design are within reason to the gain. In other words, 10% effort will bring you good results in increasing longevity of your installation, while the other 90% only get you another year or so. I know - poor analogy, but the best I can come up with right now.
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Old 01-26-2006, 09:13 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCal Bambi
I have a question. It seems to me that if warm moist air from inside the trailer is circulated inside the walls next to cold metal, that will produce a condensation problem as well. Can you explain or share some diagrams about your plan. I will continue to work on ideas along this line of thinking. It will be some time yet before I have to make a final decision. I was hoping for response from others as well. Maybe more will come. Glad to hear you survived the trade show. They are a great experience, but can take almost all ones energy.
Don
I hear you about the trade show...someone handed me the complete flu package, all evil symptoms included. for free....
Your question is a good one. I have no answer, as I am not an insulation/condensation specialist.
I do know that air circulation is a good thing, it is common in any building with hollow walls. Therefore, I will provide a reasonable amount of circulation for the inside, and sleep well afterwards.
It might well be moist air that's circulating, but only for a while, after which you still have the daily rhythm of warm up/cool down, and it's associated condensation and convection functions.
this happens whether it's occupied or not, and "should" help with keeping the hollow wall ventilated and dry.
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Old 01-29-2006, 08:16 PM   #140
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Belly Pan progress

Well I have all but the last belly pan laid out. As several others have mentioned, getting the quarter panels to fit is a challenge. As I mentioned in another post I used 4x8 sheets of aluminum. They were a good price and they came painted on both sides, white on one and clear on the other side. Another change is located in the plumbing area. There will be a removable panel in this area, see photo. It was obvious that previous owners had plumbing problems over the years. The repairs were poor. This is a difficult area to reach, so I decided to make it more accessible. I am waiting for the delivery of the clecos I ordered so I can finish the belly.
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