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Old 10-22-2007, 08:48 PM   #71
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...Sometime I think the laws of physics are different for other people. (And different in Canada where you can tow 34 footers with Jags and Mercedes)...
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It's a combination of factors, the exchange rate and english to metric...
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Old 05-14-2008, 08:45 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by 2airishuman

excluding collisions, how many issues lead to front end separation...


2. shell issues:
-the shell resists (somewhat) compression, flexion, torsion and vertical/horizontal forces.

but the skin is thinner than ever before and the grade alum use has less resistant to fatigue.

ribs and rivets have been removed. a thermal brake tape is now used between the outer skin and the rib.

they buck the rivets through the 3 layers and one isn't metal.

they are using many fewer rivets and fasteners too.

front bracing has been removed, the floor channel is changed, the rib are now 3 pieces, not contiuous arcs.

they claim it is stronger...i don't accept that.

3.the frame:

virtually unchanged for years.

we complain it's not galvanized but really the issue is, is it beefy enough for a 8-11,000 trailer?

my unit has a 12-1400 lb tongue mass,

and with the w/d bars engaged and progressively tension to the scale derived setting...

the tongue flexes UP significantly and the front end cap bulges like a goiter from this flex.

the frame should NOT flex enough to harm the shell or junction, but it does.

everyone with a 800 lb tongue or more can see the tongue flex and the skin bulge IF they know what to look for.

a/s knows about this issue, yet they continue to build trailers with heavy noses and relalize we will tow with 3/4 tons or more...


it is quite likely that howiE's separation is as a result of the frame flex under tension issue.

and NOT vibrational, or made worse from vibration

mine absolutely has frame movement...
and after the tongue frame flexed up, the factory guys trimmed the skin and reattached the front in the new flexed position,

but added NO bracing, elephant ears or support ribs or extra tie downs..

so andrew you should start a thread on creative tweeking of tv to better mate with a/s....

cheers
2air'

brad, your comments are spot on...
i'd add that a/s is building 8-11.5 thousand pound trailers with 13-1400 lb tongues, on the same basic frame used for 6-7,000 pounders with 6-800 lb tongues.

they need to admit there is an issue and develop/authorize a proper repair for all these units instead of blaming it on running gear, too much hitch or too much truck!

cheers
2air'

.................................................
Was there a particular critical year in the past when the frames, etc. began to be inadequate? On the newer units, say, 2004-2008, is there a size (and lower) where the frame strength is adequate? How much does the wide-body design impact these problems? - are the narrow designs mostly immune from body separation in these newer years? Have there been any improvements in any of these these newer years that has cut down on body separation problems? Are there any pre-emptive upgrades to the frame, etc. that can head off these problems?

FWIW, I'm asking because I'm interested in buying a 2004-2007 22' Intl CCD, which is not a wide-body design & at the moment I'm especially interested in knowing if there is a particular year in that range that I should shoot for...

Thanks!
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Old 05-14-2008, 08:55 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by AIRzilla
Was there a particular critical year in the past when the frames, etc. began to be inadequate? On the newer units, say, 2004-2008, is there a size (and lower) where the frame strength is adequate? How much does the wide-body design impact these problems? - are the narrow designs mostly immune from body separation in these newer years? Have there been any improvements in any of these these newer years that has cut down on body separation problems? Are there any pre-emptive upgrades to the frame, etc. that can head off these problems?

FWIW, I'm asking because I'm interested in buying a 2004-2007 22' Intl CCD, which is not a wide-body design & at the moment I'm especially interested in knowing if there is a particular year in that range that I should shoot for...

Thanks!
The frames have always been adequate.

The method of construction is called "Monocoque." It means the shell is load bearing.

Therefore the shell holds up the chassis.

The problem that causes the rear end separation, is that the shell is not fastened to the frame well enough, to hold the frame up under tough conditions.

Basically, the last 20 to 25 years of Airstreams are ok. But, mount something on the rear end of the trailer, and you will see the problem happen to you.

Yes, a few have gotten away with it, but by far, those that ignored the fact, have paid to fix the problem, usually dearly.

Once the older trailers rear end has been modified PROPERLY, they are also ok.

The elephant ear fix is about as hokey as a repair can be. It doesn't last because the repair using the elephant ear approach, is a patch job, which is "not" a real fix.

Andy
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Old 05-15-2008, 01:01 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by AIRzilla
...On the newer units, say, 2004-2008, is there a size (and lower) where the frame strength is adequate? How much does the wide-body design impact these problems?...
hi airzilla...

if you looked over this thread from the beginning, it's MOSTLY about front end separation.

and i see no need to alter or retract ANY of my posts on the issue.

i don't wanna get into a debate on a/s design theory, but it is SEMI-monoque and

NOW that the shell is 5 pieces stuck together, then dropped onto a frame/floor and weakly attached...

i'm really not sure it is even sorta-semi-mono-anything.

the 'bike rack on the back' theory is irrelevant (and it's questionable that it has ANYTHING to do with rear end failures too)...

imo (i'm just a customer) the 23-25s are adequately matched (frame/body/shell/axles)...

longer units have issues (28,30,34s)

and the longer SINGLE axles units have very little reserve capacity (the ability to carry STUFF for camping)


Quote:
Originally Posted by AIRzilla
...Have there been any improvements in any of these these newer years that has cut down on body separation problems?
Are there any pre-emptive upgrades to the frame, etc. that can head off these problems?...
YES there are things that can be done, a/s FIXES the issue by adding structural bits to the front that have been REMOVED from newer designs.

in terms of "preemptive" upgrades, it would be GREAT if we could order a stronger frame or BETTER construction, but we can't...

newer long units are heavy, with many weighing 8000lbs to 11,500 lbs loaded.

the front end of the FRAME and front skin can be seen to FLEX/MOVE when PROPERLY HITCHED to an APPROPRIATE tow vehicle.

that this happens, and that nothing is done about it, is completely irresponsible of the manufacturer...

blaming the problem on towing with a PROPERLY SIZED vehicle for the task, is total nonsense....

it is foma from an a/s wrang-wrang

much like the notion that OXYGEN is responsible for corrosion.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f142...ams-31743.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by AIRzilla
...FWIW, I'm asking because I'm interested in buying a 2004-2007 22' Intl CCD, which is not a wide-body design & at the moment I'm especially interested in knowing if there is a particular year in that range that I should shoot for...
here is a thread on some of the issues in these 22s....

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f349...rse-39275.html

follow the links in post 16.

consider changing your focus to a 23 or 20 over the 22.

happy hunting!

cheers
2air'
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Old 10-07-2008, 04:29 PM   #75
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Ok, I was just turned onto this thread....and what an eye opener this one is. I assume that any front "plate" would require me to open up the inner skin to attach any type of plate. Anyone have a picture of what this plate looks like? Airstream is kidding right, about $2k to fix this issue that even to me seems like a design flaw. I mean how cool is this, a $50k trailer and and the front end has a tendency to separate, the shell corrodes, I mean what next?!

If this thread holds any truth to it, I have to say, as much as I love the Airstream brand, I am really starting to get a bit concerned about this brand. Looking at the QC threads, the corrosion threads and now this one really and truly has me thinking that buying one of these was just not such a great idea in retrospect. I will only say that I really didn't expect all these things from what I considered a premium product.
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Old 10-08-2008, 05:12 AM   #76
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You it is easy to get negative about some of these problems that you wish the factory would move quicker to fix in the design phase. However we sell 7 lines of RV's and fix many others and I would still hands down purchase an Airstream ahead of any of them. For one thing you can work on an Airstream, on the laminated a glass coaches there is often very little to work with and sometimes you wonder where you will stop. Structural rot problems are very common in most other brands. Though you can have some corrossion with Aluminum if you catch it early it can be stopped. No matter what you do the fibreglass will fade out and usually at different rates. Of coarse none of them perform like an Airstream.

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Old 10-08-2008, 08:10 AM   #77
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You it is easy to get negative about some of these problems that you wish the factory would move quicker to fix in the design phase. However we sell 7 lines of RV's and fix many others and I would still hands down purchase an Airstream ahead of any of them. For one thing you can work on an Airstream, on the laminated a glass coaches there is often very little to work with and sometimes you wonder where you will stop. Structural rot problems are very common in most other brands. Though you can have some corrossion with Aluminum if you catch it early it can be stopped. No matter what you do the fibreglass will fade out and usually at different rates. Of coarse none of them perform like an Airstream.

Andrew T
Though I clearly don't disagree that other RVs have issues and that I too prefer Airstreams over SOBs, it would seem to me that the factory is not moving at all, and depending on how you look at it, the factory actually regressing.

If you take a look at the QC threads since 2004, you find patterns of items that there are simply zero excuses at this point. For example, shower leaks. Something easily fixed with maybe $1-$2 of additional caulk. If I had a buck for each time I read this one or heard about it, I could have bought a Skydeck outright (ok a slight exageration, but you get my point). How hard is it to do a good caulking job? The practically pour caulk on with buckets on the roof, but the shower is somewhat skimpy and constantly leaks, moreso on certain models than others. Yet every year, someone posts a new model still leaking and owners wind up solving the issue mostly on their own. Five years of QC threads is more than enough time to get some caulk and solve the issue. This of course is one small example. There are others...read the 5 years of QC threads and draw your own conclusions.

Second the corrosion issue has been out there in full view for at least 2 years and Airstream knew about this as early as 2002 or 2003. 2Air was just out there and said their fix, if accurate doesn't seem to be a good long term fix. BTW, that fix started in late 2008 or early 2009 model year. I think nearly 7 model years is more than enough time to come up with something solid.

Third, according to this thread alone, take all the rest of the issues and put them aside for a moment, there were how many of these at the factory service center for this very issue? How many Airstreams have to have this happen before production replaces the plates and supports that were according to this thread, removed from production? Who knows really how long they have known about this? Who knows if the plates and supports have been placed back into production? Who wants to spend about $2k on a design flaw repair on top of the premium price paid for a unit where these plates and supports were deleted and now show front frame separation?

Sure SOBs have issues, but in many cases you can buy up to three SOBs for the price of one Airstream. When I bought my two new units, I thought I was getting a premium well designed and built product. Frankly, my experience been anything but that.

It almost made me laugh when I read "you wish the factory would move quicker to fix in the design phase" as anyone can see by reading the threads on this forum, clearly we've waited a significant amount of time (read years)...here are some of the threads to dive into and draw your own conclusions:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f142...ity-41668.html

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f142...ams-31743.html
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Old 10-08-2008, 03:46 PM   #78
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production problems.

Gosh, last I knew, Ford and GM and still working on problems from the early 70's.

And coupled with that, they have some brand new ones for the last 10 years.

How dare Airstream create a product, that's less than perfect?

And so it is.

Andy
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Old 10-08-2008, 04:25 PM   #79
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Andy...I hear what you are saying...BUT...I do believe AS should be able to incrementaly improve their product each year. Particularly since the design/style changes are minor...vs the major model changes in the auto industry.

Sure "feels" like AS is enjoying the profit margin of their brand premium and putting very little into product quality evolution and improvements.

They certainly could start with an improved frame rust resistance (galvanize??...like in Europe?)...better floor water resistance/material...maybe marine grade treated plywood??...state of the art aluminum corrossion resistance...read Alcoa's new specs. And it goes on...listen to the customer's and review your service claims.

A day will come that AS will not be able to get their premium price...if they don't show the customer they have a premium product....worth the 2-3 time price multiple vs SOB.

Comments for what little they are worth...Thanks...Tom R in Two Harbors, Minnesota

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Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In View Post
Gosh, last I knew, Ford and GM and still working on problems from the early 70's.

And coupled with that, they have some brand new ones for the last 10 years.

How dare Airstream create a product, that's less than perfect?

And so it is.

Andy
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Old 10-08-2008, 04:54 PM   #80
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Andy...I hear what you are saying...BUT...I do believe AS should be able to incrementaly improve their product each year. Particularly since the design/style changes are minor...vs the major model changes in the auto industry.

Sure "feels" like AS is enjoying the profit margin of their brand premium and putting very little into product quality evolution and improvements.

They certainly could start with an improved frame rust resistance (galvanize??...like in Europe?)...better floor water resistance/material...maybe marine grade treated plywood??...state of the art aluminum corrossion resistance...read Alcoa's new specs. And it goes on...listen to the customer's and review your service claims.

A day will come that AS will not be able to get their premium price...if they don't show the customer they have a premium product....worth the 2-3 time price multiple vs SOB.

Comments for what little they are worth...Thanks...Tom R in Two Harbors, Minnesota
Airstream has always been willing to improve and update the trailers, beyond the production at the time.

But, Airstream is not willing to do it free.

And, the buyers are not willing to pay for it either.

So, just maybe, just perhaps, kinda sorta, Airstream compromises?

Could be, maybe, sorta.

Business is business. If it's not cost effective, it ain't gonna happen.


Andy
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Old 10-08-2008, 05:10 PM   #81
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Gosh, last I knew, Ford and GM and still working on problems from the early 70's.

And coupled with that, they have some brand new ones for the last 10 years.

How dare Airstream create a product, that's less than perfect?

And so it is.

Andy

Don't misunderstand me, no one is perfect, but if I buy a Mercedes, I expect a certain level of quality and materials for the price paid above what I would have gotten if I had bought a Hyundai or a Chevy. I don't expect Mercedes to take out engine or frame supports critical to keeping the engine in the bay or chassis from over torquing. I don't expect Mercedes to know a sunroof or door leaks and has had chronic leaks on new vehicles for 4 years. I also don't expect Mercedes to sell me a car who's body, as early as 6 months off the production floor to start to show body/paint blemishes, and has know about it for at least 7 model years.

I ranked Airstream on par with Mercedes and maybe that was my fault, but it's hard not to when the base model new Bambi is about $35k and the average new Airstream costs upwards of $50k or even more, when the competition starts out at $15k for a similar sized trailer. The company itself touts itself as "The World's Finest Travel Trailers". Heck Andy, even you say on your website, "we don't make the product, we make the product better." Why can't Airstream start out that way? Lately I've heard them walking from certain warranty claims....can't verify it, but when more than one or two folks say that, you have to start to consider it a possibility....and that is warranty issues that should be covered, but are not.

Your're right Andy, shame on me for thinking that I bought a well engineered and "World's Finest Travel Trailer" and that my expectations that the factory who clearly has known about these issues not be held responsible for building a quality long lasting product...and you're right Andy, if my unit has this front end separation, I should further have zero concerns about paying about $2k to have a design flaw fixed.

Oh and Airstream compromise? Their compromise to my corrosion was to sand down all the spots and put clear nail polish all over my unit. I should expect my front end separation to be treated differently? Have the replaced the supports and plates to the units on the production line yet?

I've agreed with you on many, many occasions Andy, and this one I simply cannot accept or agree with you on.
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Old 10-08-2008, 05:49 PM   #82
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But, the problem, or should I say the question, is if Mercedes cars are so great, why do they insist that their dealers have trained service departments.

Last I knew, is that those service departments did the PM stuff, BUT, they were also there to fix or correct the things that went "south."

Now, since Airstreams production is about one (1) percent of Mercedes, I can then expect that Airstream only does about a 99 percent of the product research that Mercedes does, which leaves room for the "oops."

But on the other hand, the Mercedes cars, do not have a water heater, a toilet, a black or gray tank, 50 gallons of fresh water, a bed or two, a refrigerator with a freezer compatment, a sink to do dishes, cabinets to store things, or a place to take a shower or a bath, a place to roast a chicken or a place to scramble the eggs, and it certainly does not have window drapes or blinds.

But on the other hand, Airstream trailers do not have windshield wipers.

Hmmmm.

Maybe Mercedes should check out what Airstream does.

Andy
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Old 10-08-2008, 06:29 PM   #83
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C'mon Andy, you're playing semantics now. Clearly Airstream has authorized service centers where the tech folks at the RV dealership are required to go to the factory for some level of training. Additionally, you're right Mercedes too is not perfect, but they don't take supports out that can compromise the vehicle. More over you are also right in saying the Mercedes does not have a bed, fridge, etc (except in Sprinter form). The Mercedes does have far more technical parts, like an engine, transmission, axles, computer controls, emission systems, etc, all that work (and are far more complicated that what Airstream does) and are honored under warranty-- few if any questions asked. Heck my dad had a 1982 300DT and well out of warranty, Mercedes picked up the price of the part and my pops paid 1/2 the labor and he was something like 10 years out of warranty and at least 70k miles out of the mileage part of the warranty. This is supporting the customer. Our Honda Accord had the trans fail on a V6. Again, just out of warranty, and just missed the recall numbers. Guess what, Honda covered the whole thing....again, great customer support, which makes happy lifelong customers.

What do we get with Airstream? Go put nail polish on your Airstream, or from what I read here, you want your front frame seperation fixed, $1900 please. Real customer oriented.

Though true Airstream most likely makes 1% of Mercedes total output, that is totally irrelevant due to it being economies of scale and, Airstream has the backing of the largest RV builder in the counrty, Thor, so though Airstream has but 1%, the overall company has significantly more that 1% of the RV market and has the resources to design, build and support a quality product. Everything else you've brought up are simple excuses. If I gave folks at work these types of excuses, I'd be out of a job and rightly so. I think my unit may have this and is why I am so frustrated at yet another issue with my Airstream.

Clearly your site saying we don't make the product, we make the product better realizes that the factory has shortcomings that you are able to make up and make a buck off, which is great, thank goodness for folks like you that can help the community. My point is the factory should be doing this well in advance and not giving these sorry excuses. Build a great product and follow up with outstanding support. Mistakes that are made are fixed with as little impact to the customer as possible. However this has not really happened and it's a numbers game, with only what appears to be a small window of any real customer support. To date, I've had few issues with Airstream, but recall I was under warranty and all the folks there I really like, I just don't care for what I am seeing and having to go through with such a new unit. It's ridiculous, and unacceptable, plain and simple.

I fully understand your relationship to Airstream and you can't come off in public sounding too upset with them, but give us all a little credit here too that we are all not just blindly drinking the Kool-Aid and accepting this and lying down saying it's just the way it is.....
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Old 10-08-2008, 08:15 PM   #84
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I fully understand your relationship to Airstream and you can't come off in public sounding too upset with them, but give us all a little credit here too that we are all not just blindly drinking the Kool-Aid and accepting this and lying down saying it's just the way it is.....
I can and have been very upset with Airstream, a number of times, in my 42 plus years.

I really think the problem today, is probably less feedback from the dealerships.

We also, instead of having better in field service, not only with Airstream, but many products as well, have more of a , if you wish, sort of "that's good enough for me, so that should be good enough for everyone else," attitude with all to many of todays services.

I firmly disagree with that kind of attitude and always have. My web site, as you have pointed out, says what I live for. Unfortunately, maybe because I'm from the old school and therefore don't see eye to eye with all to many places of repair services.

I also feel strongly, that factory feedback today, in spite of computers, is not, generally speaking, what it used to be.

To me, complaining about problems with a product today, just doesn't seem to carry the weight that it used to carry.

Perhaps, if most of the owners would get together, and combine their issues, and have that submitted to, in this case, Airstream, maybe more affirmative results could be obtained, instead of one here and one there.

I don't feel that the annual 4th of July rally, would even be a fair place to start.

Perhaps a "very specific" late model Airstream complaint thread, where owners could list the exact problems, and refrain from writing a novel about it, would, I think, be a great start.

Certainly, there are hundreds of late model owners that are members of this Forums, that I feel could be a positive influence to Airstream management.

After a couple of dozen or so entries on that thread, they could very easily be forwarded to Airstream.

Again, at least in my opinion, specifics without a long drawn out story attached, would be an "attention getter."

To me, a positive means of communications back to the factory, would in short order, bring positive results.

For all of us, be it dealer or owner, to keep on kicking this situation back and forth, as has been done for a way to long of a period of time, should stop in it's tracks by having perhaps a simple form to fill out on this Forums, which would be gathered with others, and submitted as a group to Airstream management.

Perhaps that might be a slow beginning, but I venture to say, it would be far better than the jibber jabber, that obviously and very clearly, has accomplished absolutely zero to nothing.

Maybe the mods could pick one person to edit if necessary those forms, and submit them in an orderly fashion, and report back, on this Forums, the feedback from Airstream, to the rest of it's members.

I feel very confident, that positive results would be forth coming, in a short period of time.

Now the key question.

How many say "aye", and how many say "nay."

Please post back, one of those two words, without any other comments, at least in this thread.

I will bet, that many "ayes", will shortly follow.

If not, then so be it.

Andy
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