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K9endgame · 10-06-2018, 04:06 PM

We looked and talked about this for 10 years and now its about to start.

Just starting on our frame off restore of this unit we pulled out of the woods. This sat in the woods (thinkin it might get tagged "Woody") for at least 44 years so the interior...you can imagine. As the Mrs started the carpet was the only thing holding her above the frame as we discovered the wood had disintegrated.

My question is are the any recommendations as to where we can haul this frame (once the top is off) for the frame repair, axel, and maybe more floor stuff. Not looking to break the bank on just the frame, axel and belly however wish to have it done right the first time. Reasonable travel is not the issue from Northwestern pa.

Also..wrong thread but the stove and re fridge seem to be the originals, any chance of repairing these? I assume the furnace and water heaters are not worth keeping?

Any and all help with this will be valuable learning for us.

OTRA15 · 10-06-2018, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by K9endgame

. . .
. . . Not looking to break the bank on just the frame, axel and belly however wish to have it done right the first time.
. . .

Just to clarify . . . are you planning on paying someone else to do this work?

Also, maybe you could define your financial limits?

Most frame-off restorations like this are distinctly DIY . . . IMO.

Check out the Love Shack thread for a well-written and humorous insight into the perils of a DIY frame-off project:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f227...ck-183431.html

Good luck,

Peter

PS — Careful of Hantavirus if there are any rodent nests or droppings:

https://www.google.com/search?q=Hant...=airforums.com

PS2 — Is this the same Airstream?

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f368...pa-187244.html

Bubba L · 10-06-2018, 05:08 PM

As far as the frame is concerned, you can find angle irons , purlins, etc at any full service steel supplier. Contact a welding shop near you. They may come out and weld up what you need. If that thing has been in the woods that long, the frame may be too fragile to tow anywhere too far. Concerning the appliances, take them out, clean everything and try them. Back then the stoves were not rocket science. On my 55 Princess and after I cleaned it up, I paid a RV guy 50 bucks to check all the fittings and fire it up. It was worth the money for me. On our Dometic M16 fridge, we converted it to a AC/DC with an Isotherm cooling unit. Pricey, but again worth it to me. Figure out what needs to be repaired, get a game plan, and look at the costs. It is expensive. Good luck, Bubba

uncle_bob · 10-06-2018, 07:26 PM

Hi

There are indeed people who do these sort of restorations for a living. They do good work, but aren't cheap. Prices can go well past $40K for some full up redo's. Getting even the basics likely gets you over $15K. So first question - is this the direction you want to go?

The DIY approach needs a place to pull the shell and work on things out of the rain. How long that space is occupied is very much "that depends". Years is not at all unusual if this is a part time sort of thing. Once the shell is off, the frame heads over to a welding shop *or* you learn how to weld. Costs for a basic rebuild are still in the many thousands of dollars even full DIY. Again - is this a direction you want to go?

There are a number of fiddly other ways to head off in, but both are closely related to the two above.

The other alternative is to put a very modest amount of money in a trailer that is in much better shape and go from there. Maybe not as much fun, but likely less money and work.

Bob

Bob Blarney · 10-06-2018, 07:42 PM

I'd think a couple of visits to truck repair shops near I-80 might help you to find a welder who would take on the job. Here near Detroit, I've found a welder who repairs trailers for contractors and landscapers. He also has a welding shop in a utility trailer for onsite work If you lifted the shell off yourself and had the frame ready for transport or work at your location.

uncle_bob · 10-07-2018, 08:40 AM

Hi

One thing that probably would help move things forward:

Do what you can to clear out the reminder of the floor in the center of the trailer (the edges will have to wait). Also clear out as much debris and crud from the frame as you can. Then shoot some pictures of the frame it's self. Anybody who is going to do work on the frame will need a pretty good view to be able to figure out how much of a job it is.

=======

Don't get turned off if the first couple guys simply say no when you ask. It may take some time to find a shop that has the time and the interest to do the job. You are close enough to several metro areas that finding a shop should be possible.

Any number you are given for the cost of fixing up the frame should be looked at as a guess. Budget 2X the amount before you commit. You never know just how lucky you may be.

Bob

K9endgame · 10-07-2018, 09:06 AM

Well axel and frame feels like its important for safe travels but however not rocket science for repairs. Decision number 2 made...We will find a local welder to get us by this second step.

We are covering a pad (26'x30') for this project so it can be drawn out with room to work for a long time if needed. 40-60 hours a week on our jobs so this will be a part time thing for us. Our quite time/stress relief if you will.

What about an axel and suspension? Brakes? Do I stay with just leaf springs? Thoughts?

The tanks in the sub-floor? We have none. So, any suggestions on routes to go there? How big? location? access? hook-ups? gray and fresh water.-assume the welder we choose will need to have these to weld in a housing space/brackets of some sort. Water pump?

Anyone use in floor heating?

Might be jumping ahead with thought process but I think everything will take time and we need to be thinking ahead to order or fabricate some parts.

There is no money tree here so we will do as much as we can ourselves . With smiles and enjoying every step I'm sure. A true test for the significant other right!

That fridge got cold over night. Wow! Need to clean up the stove and see about it.

It is the same one OTRA15.

Well back to work, Thanks

75Bob · 10-07-2018, 12:58 PM

We choose to keep our 43 year stove but it was in bad shape. 1rst of all, I don't think they even make 4 burner stoves any longer so it's kind of a relic. I took it to a company that advertised chrome plating. I was told we shouldn't chrome it but they could put a hard, shiny finish on it after the rust was sand blasted off. And they would plate it with chemical that did not discolor when heat is applied. I took apart the stove and gave them the base and cover. 2 weeks later and $250 it looks like brand new. I know I could have bought a New stove for probably 100 bucks but it's weird to look at a new 1975 stove. Makes me laugh. Did I mention metal restoration is expensive.

uncle_bob · 10-07-2018, 02:01 PM

Hi

One very simple approach is to rebuild the trailer "the way it was". You then are relying on the original design details being correct. Same type of axle / same kind of brakes / same tire size ... move on. Redesigning things with a different suspension system is going to involve a bit of detailed analysis. If you are a mechanical engineer with a bunch of time on your hands ... might be fun. Otherwise off to Dexter to do some shopping.

One thing that will have to change is the waste tank setup. Long after your trailer came out, gray water tanks came into existence. Part of the design of your new toy will involve the "how big / where to put it". Starting from the tank sizes of a modern trailer of similar size is not a bad first guess.

Right now, your trailer really has no floor plan. That also needs to be worked out. Doors and windows limit you to some degree. Vents and other roof penetrations may limit things a little. Working out some sort of sketch is probably a good idea before you start welding things up.

The trailer came from the factory in an era that was not as electric intensive as we are today. Air conditioning on a trailer ... not at all common. Again, more decisions to make and best made early. Pulling the inner skin is best done one time

. Given the state of the trailer, pulling it just to replace the insulation is a "really good idea". Who knows what's been living in there .....

One tricky part about all this is weight and balance. You want a certain amount of the trailer's weight to be on the tongue of the trailer. You also want the weight evenly distributed left and right. Finally, you would like most of the weight to be low to the ground. High school math is perfectly adequate to figure it out ( = I've done it with high school kids). A spread sheet will keep you from going crazy while doing it.

This all goes on and on, there are lots of threads here that dive ever deeper into the details.

Bob

Bob Blarney · 10-08-2018, 07:25 AM

Since you'll be working on this 'off & on' timewise, it might be useful to start a notebook with sections for each major system. This would help you to keep track of what needs to be done when, and also ideas that you might consider. At this point, alternative sketches of the interior layout could be 'imagineered' and so by keeping a notebook you it may help you to remember your ideas during the constructive phase.

As mentioned above, clearing out the rest of the interior will be necessary to survey the frame and mechanical systems. As you remove the interior skins, put a number on them and then take a photo of where they're located and take notes.

When the interior skins are off, that's the time to evaluate the electrical wiring and plumbing. (By the way, if you're going to cover the walls with 'mouse fur' carpet material, then you can just chisel off the rivet heads to save an immense amount of time.)

As I mentioned in your introductory post, there is Keystone Spring Services, a spring & suspension fabrication shop, just east of Rte 19 on US 422 between Butler and New Castle.

I like the idea of in-floor heating. It would be very quiet and even. How to accomplish that would take some thought. I suppose it would be possible to use a single hot water heater for both the galley and heating but I'd consider two separate systems. The heating system could be a miniature version of a home hydronic heating system with a pneumatic expansion tank, and that is filled with an antifreeze solution.

For re-insulating the trailer, I wonder if a spray-on foam would be better than fiberglass wool. Fiberglass acts a sponge for water, and as mentioned above provides a nice nest for critters. Foam would not absorb water (and possibly seal off leaks) and it might be more resistant to critters, but the wiring and plumbing would be entombed unless conduits were installed.

57Vintage · 10-08-2018, 10:37 AM

If it was me I would keep the frig and stove. The stove looks like a Dixie. There is a company that will rebuild the gas valves and thermostat for you in CA.

http://www.antiquegasstoves.com/pages/parts/gas.html

If that is a Dixie stove, it may have pilots for the burners, mine did. I removed them and put a steel plug in the manifold for it. Didn't make sense to have a pilot running while camping (there wasn't a shut off for the pilot). I believe these are really small apartment models.

Regarding the frig, I assume its propane/electric. You may be able to find someone to check it out. I don't recognize the make/model. I converted my Kreftt from propane/110 electric to 110/12 electric with a marine unit from isotemp. They have several sizes of evaporator to choose from.

https://www.indelwebastomarine.com/u...ation-systems/

https://search.defender.com/?express...20+%20Isotherm

The second thread is to give you pictures of the kits to understand the shapes of the evaporators better.

You are a long ways from needing to decide what to do with these, but when you need a change of topic from frame/shell off/layout/etc you can do a little research. I haven't written much on the appliances yet on my thread. Bubba L has some detail about his frig. Look at page 15

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f73/...no-154849.html

His whole thread will be helpful.

uncle_bob · 10-09-2018, 06:39 AM

Hi

Even in the state the trailer is in, the idea of "take lots of pictures" is a good one. You never know what you might wonder about a year or three from now

One thing that will pop up with a trashed floor is coming up with the dimensions for the new floor. There may not be enough left to get information from, it's still worth taking some measurements. Again, can't hurt (much) and may help.

Bob

putback · 10-10-2018, 01:54 PM

1st if you like classic Airstreams that is a real gem. The body panels & door look good and straight. Nice find. Seems odd but the pics make the frame look decient? Some $ numbers that may be usefull from last spring. 28 footer. All steel for new frame $700. All alum for belly pan $425. dexter axles $550 @. 2 between rails gray tanks $400. 3/4 inch western fur ply for deck forgot, lost the reciept! bolts, weld rod & frame paint? Do some research on the axle? That was built to be towed with a heavy car at low speed on state highways. At 26 ft at interstate speed a single axle could be a white knuckle drive. A pair of complete dexter torsions will make the tow boring. It will require some sheet metal mods and side plates welded on the frame. Fact is you can spend some money on that one, enjoy it and still geta good return as years go by.

OTRA15 · 10-10-2018, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by putback

1st if you like classic Airstreams that is a real gem. The body panels & door look good and straight. Nice find. Seems odd but the pics make the frame look decient? Some $ numbers that may be usefull from last spring. 28 footer. All steel for new frame $700. All alum for belly pan $425. dexter axles $550 @. 2 between rails gray tanks $400. 3/4 inch western fur ply for deck forgot, lost the reciept! bolts, weld rod & frame paint? Do some research on the axle? That was built to be towed with a heavy car at low speed on state highways. At 26 ft at interstate speed a single axle could be a white knuckle drive. A pair of complete dexter torsions will make the tow boring. It will require some sheet metal mods and side plates welded on the frame. Fact is you can spend some money on that one, enjoy it and still geta good return as years go by.

Thanks for the details. How many labor hours do you anticipate your restoration requiring?

Thanks,

Peter

putback · 10-10-2018, 02:58 PM

Hours!! This is a '63. Nothing usefull from the beltline down. Just retired so it MAY be done for next summer. If we'd stop camping with the others & salmon fishing trips & grouse hunting & bow hunting trips & her cursed wine tasting tours. Honest guess, 5 hundred work hours start to finish. Last one, at this point I'm racing the grim reaper! Unless I stumple on to something as sweet as K9 did. That would be hard to walk away from.

OTRA15 · 10-10-2018, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by putback

. . .
Honest guess, 5 hundred work hours start to finish.
. . .

Thanks for the estimate. So . . . working full-time for 10 hours a day . . . 5 days a week . . . this could be accomplished in 10 weeks?

Have you seen the Love Shack thread?

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f227...ck-183431.html

Eric's thread is well-written with great photos, and his sense of humor is second to none

Good luck,

Peter

rmkrum · 10-10-2018, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OTRA15

Thanks for the estimate. So . . . working full-time for 10 hours a day . . . 5 days a week . . . this could be accomplished in 10 weeks?

----snip-------------

Peter

I'm reminded of the "Mythical Man-month" book. More realistically, you need to consider that the project falls under the engineering estimates "90-90" rule:

90-90 Rule

The first half of the planned project will take 90% of the budgeted time and money. The balance of the project will consume ANOTHER 90% of the time and money allocated, (and then some) before it is completed.

Corollary #1: No matter what you do, you can't beat the 90-90 rule.

Corollary #2: No matter what you do, you can't break even either.

Corollary #3: Murphy was an optimist. (Murphy's basic law: Anything that can go wrong will go wrong--at the worst possible time)

Hate to admit how many times in my long 'career' in engineering that I have had these concepts forcibly driven home. I quit fighting the inevitable about mid way into 20+ years at Boeing. I managed to retire with a few shreds of dignity, if not sanity...

Isuzusweet · 10-10-2018, 05:12 PM

I don't know about you guys, but having metal sit over wet ground for 44 years is bad, bad, bad.

If it were me, I'd be looking at taking the body off the frame and most likely having a new frame made. The frame will possibly be compromised in so many areas, that you'd be welding bad to bad.
In this day and age of CNC parts, having the frame and its components scanned, or electronically measured, and new parts cut and welded together maybe the way to go, budget wise and safety wise.

Just today, someones A frame came apart and dropped the front of their 1983 Excella onto the ground on an Interstate highway.....at speed.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f36/...ml#post2166729

Cheers
Sidekick Tony

K9endgame · 10-12-2018, 04:59 AM

So i know I have read threads on aluminium frames. Has anyone ever had one built and used it for an Airstream. (strength/flex)

We have a 25' RandR enclosed snowmobile trailer that I haul 4-5 thousand lbs when loaded with Kubota tractor and mowers. I drive the F-150 aluminum frame truck. Both prove they can take the beating. Just thoughts if I choose a whole new frame. options and choices

That single axel has some weight on it. I read also where some have added the second. Rather not I would like to keep the thing looking as she should.

Great ideas from all thank you.

Isuzusweet · 10-12-2018, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by K9endgame

I drive the F-150 aluminum frame truck. Both prove they can take the beating.

Great ideas from all thank you.

Ummmm. hate to burst your bubble, but your Ford has an aluminum body but the frame is steel, not aluminum.

Yes, frames can be made out of aluminum, BUT, the advantage over steel isn't as great as you'd think. In order to have the same tensile strength as a peticular piece of steel, the aluminum one must be thicker; thusly, there is very little weight reduction, if any, and the cost to build is much greater.

Cheers
Sidekick Tony