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Old 12-21-2009, 02:05 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by beyond View Post
Can anyone throw out ideas on what would keep the outer skin up when the belly pan is off?
Not sure if I totally understand your question....but, we did our floor replacement without removing the entire shell on our '56 Safari. (Thanks for the link Minno!) When the old floor was removed, before the new floor went in - we used 1X's to hold the channel & outside skin up. I think our '56 is different than yours though in that the belly pan is essentially one piece side to side and if we drilled out all the rivets to drop the belly pan, the whole shell would be freed as well. There are blind rivets holding the belly pan in place that are under the exterior skin - the only way to get at them is to remove the exterior skin. So being that we didn't want to do that, we left the belly in place until the new floor was in - then dropped it a bit at a time as we replaced the exterior panel and had everything else bolted back down.

Linked (post #176) shows a picture of the 1X's in place...no additional jacks or anything specail, we had leveled the trailer before we started taking everything apart with four corner stabilizing jacks. It seemed to help keep things aligned and level throughout the project.

Good luck on your project...looks like you are making some good progress! Hope this helps ~

Shari
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Old 12-21-2009, 02:25 PM   #16
Confused in Bham
 
1964 24' Tradewind
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Its amazing how things begin to make sense, as we progress throught this project. Our under belly pan stops about 18" before the beginning of the wrap upwards. The banana wrap (I think is what its called) starts then at the 18" with overlap, and connects to the outer skin at the usual place (top side of frame). Your link was great, and made sense. What about using the original wood that was taken out as spacers instead? Should a bolt go into the holes where the elevator bolts were originally (through the 1")?
If bolts were used to keep the outer skin on, then the belly and banana could be taken off while we work on the frame. Do you think that would work? Or maybe I'm making this more complex than I need to.
I guess my biggest concern is that I want to make sure the frame is strong and clean, the belly is sealed, and that I'll be able to replace the floor farely easily. But not quite knowing which steps are needed to get there.
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Old 12-21-2009, 02:55 PM   #17
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Quote:
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Our under belly pan stops about 18" before the beginning of the wrap upwards. The banana wrap (I think is what its called) starts then at the 18" with overlap, and connects to the outer skin at the usual place (top side of frame).
Yeah, that's the difference between the 50's and the 60's - they got smarter and made the banana wrap & belly pan two separate pieces in the 60's.

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Originally Posted by beyond View Post
Your link was great, and made sense. What about using the original wood that was taken out as spacers instead?
That would work...

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Originally Posted by beyond View Post
Should a bolt go into the holes where the elevator bolts were originally (through the 1")?
We just used c-clamps to hold things in place temporarily. Wedging the 1X under the c-channel and clamping it to the frame.

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I guess my biggest concern is that I want to make sure the frame is strong and clean, the belly is sealed, and that I'll be able to replace the floor farely easily. But not quite knowing which steps are needed to get there.
Since your belly pan and banana wrap are separate, there's no reason you can't drop your belly pan to access all sides of most of the frame at the same time. Phasing, we did the two ends first and being able to stand on the ground through the frame would have been great! Then we worked towards the middle aligning the seams of plywood with the frame members - all joints are centered over the cross members of the frame. By having the belly dropped, you can use all elevator bolts instead of some elevator bolts & some self-tapping screws like we did because you have access to all the frame members - whereas we only had access to every other one...the cross members are spaced at 2' o.c. and the seams are 4' o.c.. See this post #200 which shows both the elevator bolts & self-tapping screws.

Shari
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Old 12-21-2009, 02:56 PM   #18
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Hi beyond,
Take a look at my blog for info on shell-on floor replacement, '64 style. If you have any questions you can send me a PM or ask here. I did this without drilling out the bucked rivets that hold the wrap-arounds to the bottom edge of the outer skins.
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Old 12-21-2009, 02:59 PM   #19
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Oh, one more thing...

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I guess my biggest concern is <snip> the belly is sealed
You don't really want to seal the belly so tight that water can't get out...just keep water from getting in by sealing the leading edge of overlaps. Make sense?

Shari
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Old 12-21-2009, 03:03 PM   #20
Confused in Bham
 
1964 24' Tradewind
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Hi Viking,
I had read your blog prior with great interest. It seems the floor jack will be key. I will only need the jack for this one task, I think, and will not need more weight capacity than the shell itself. Any thoughts on a floor jack that could handle this but not cost alot?
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Old 12-21-2009, 03:05 PM   #21
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Even your screw type sissors jack in your car can help.. just cut a 4x4 to length, and use the jack to lift the shell... a cheap bottlejack from Harbor freight could work too.
Marc
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Old 12-21-2009, 04:46 PM   #22
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You could actually do this without a jack by cutting your 4x4 a little long, and wedging it between the frame and the 2x4 spanning the ribs in the ceiling. It doesn't take much to lift it up.

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Old 12-26-2009, 11:16 AM   #23
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Hey Beyond,

Iíve been away from the forums for the past couple of weeks. I know, hard to believe that other stuff could actually get in the way of AS stuffÖ but I was building some Christmas presents for two of my sisters, and now Iím working hot and heavy on a white oak crib for grandchild No. 5 (whoís due to arrive the beginning of February).

I see youíve gotten answers to many of your questions, some of which led to other questions, so let me try and answer what I can to help fill in the missing pieces.

One thing to point out first Ė before we started taking drilling any rivets or removing any bolts that held the shell to the c-channel and the floor to the frame, we jacked up Little Girl and made sure the frame was dead level front to back and side to side. Dead level forward of the axels at any rate. Once we took out the rear sections of plywood, we could then verify we did not have any frame sag. A level frame is really important for putting everything back together.

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The floor is now mostly out. It seams that I have the same problem as Minno now. The outer skin is being changed in shape without the wood and the bolts, so the holes do not line up anymore, but we will not be replacing the floor for a few weeks. As long as the belly pan is still on should we worry about the outer, and C-Channel, sagging enough that replacing the floor is a bigger challenge?
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We were not planning on taking off the belly pan, but two things have made me reevaluate this. One is that the corner skin (?) around the outside is either holey or dented in many places. Second is the ease of replacing the floor.
Can anyone throw out ideas on what would keep the outer skin up when the belly pan is off? I could see this in Little Girl Refurb, but couldn't figure out how it was being supported above the frame. Portable stabilizer jacks with wood?
As mentioned by others, you should support the c-channel with 1x wood, or you can cut strips out of the old plywood and use that. One drawback to cutting strips out of the old plywood is then you lose them to use as a template for cutting the new floor. Might not be a concern though - just thought I'd mention it. We clamped the 1x4 pieces of wood we used to support the c-channel on top of the outriggers, and that worked very well. One of the key things is to try and keep the c-channel on the outriggers. If it does drop off (and it will somewhere most likely), we used a small bottle jack to jack it back up. We slipped a piece of sheet metal on top of the outrigger and under the c-channel and used it as a guide to help get the c-channel back on top of the outrigger a few times. Also, we used a piece of the 1x4 under the c-channel so the jack was pushing on the wood to spread the force a bit more evenly (instead of just putting the jack directly under the c-channel). I was afraid of deforming the c-channel by just using the bottle jack.

We took the center belly skin off, and all 4 corner banana wraps. The center belly skin will be replaced, and the corner banana wraps will be straightened out hopefully. One of my winter AS projects after I finish the crib and one other furniture project this winter.

We did leave the 18Ē wide side wraps on. Drilling out the thousands of rivets that hold it onto the shell and side c-channels just seemed like way tooooooooo much work that I didnít think we needed to do. Now my quandary though is that some of this wrap needs to be replaced or repaired. Not sure how Iím going to resolve this yet, but itís under the trailer, so if I just patch it, itís wonít show too much.


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Also, Minno in #30 you mentioned you took out the C-Channel. Recommended for ease of replacing the floor?


The only piece of c-channel we took out was the curved pieces that goes around the rear of the trailer. On Little Girl, the front and read c-channels have a different profile than the side c-channel (she's a '72). The front and rear ones do not have the bottom part that wraps around the edge of the plywood. The rear c-channel was quite deformed due to the rear-end separation, and it was broken in half, so I removed it to straighten it out and repair it, and to straighten out the shell, more than any other reason. Not having it place did help with installing the rear section of new plywood.


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All of the utilities are out now, and it seems that a prior owner badly strapped copper piping to the under belly, and bore unsealed holes into the belly and floor. We'll be replacing the copper, and am wondering if it is recommended to run the LP line through the floor, above the belly pan, or on the outside. Same question for the plumbing.


Everything Iíve read so far seems to indicate that itís a requirement to have the LP lines exposed under the trailer. That way, in case they ever leak, you can (1) find the leak and repair it, and (2) not have the leak fill up the belly pan with propane. Use copper on all LP lines. Rigid copper pipe (type L) is ok for the trunk line, which is what I plan on using, and then flexible copper for the branch lines as they enter the underside of the belly skin. Type L has thicker walls than type M. Both are fairly easy to work with and solder.

Regarding the rest of the plumbing, it can pretty much wherever you want it to. Most of the plumbing typically runs on top of the floor. One good reason for doing this is if you ever plan on winter camping. A couple of other thoughts:

The toilet needs to sit directly over the black tank and drain straight down into it.

If you install gray tank, it need to be below the lowest level of all drains and traps. Something to consider for the shower or bathtub Ė they will need to be raised off the floor so you can have a trap under them and still keep the trap above the gray tank.

The waste drains to dump the tanks will need to be lower than the bottom of the tanks, at least slightly. A 1/8Ē drop every foot is a good rule to follow. So, if the new black tank is lower than the belly pan, the dump outlet will need to be at least that low as well. Lower if say the tank is by the axels, and the drain is at the bumper. Lower pipes, especially at the rear of the trailer, can more easily get caught on road hazards and driveway ramps, so be carful how low you go and where you place things. A great location for the dump outlet is right in front of the axel if you can manage that. Second best place in my opinion is directly behind the axel. But, being directly behind the axel, they get coated with road crud off the tires quite easily (experience speaking here).

Quote:
Originally Posted by beyond View Post
This of course creates the challenge of the black box. I am expecting to purchase on that is around 6" deep, and cut a hole in the belly pan to allow for the extra depth that will not be allowed by the frame. With this I recognize the challenge of sealing around the tank. Any thoughts?


Get a shorter tank? Seriously, perhaps you can expand on your sheet metal working skills and build a belly pan box that will wrap underneath the new black tank. That would resolve many of the sealing problems youíll have if you just leave the plastic tank stick out from under the belly skin. Remember what Shari mentioned though Ė you do not want to totally seal up the belly skin. It needs to be able to drain any water that might get into it while traveling or in a heavy rain.

Hope this all helps. Feel free to PM me with additional questions if you want, or ask them here. Lotís of people with lots of knowledge and ideas are here to help!

Chris
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Old 12-26-2009, 05:17 PM   #24
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A fewthings to add:
I left the bolts that attach the C-channel to the ends of the outriggers intact until I was ready to put the new flooring in. I wire-brushed and painted the frame with them in place and then, just before I put the first piece of new floor in I cut these off in the area where the first sheet would go, and a couple of outriggers beyond, so I could flex the walls out without the shell falling off the outriggers. It worked like a charm.
In '64 they used formed curved C-channels at all four corners of the shell. These will retain their shape even when the floor is out, so if you can't retain the old flooring you can use the outside radius of these to recreate your floor pattern. Be sure to measure the distance between the walls at the floor level so you can maintain this distance when it goes back together or you may create waves or bumps in the outer skins.
If you can possibly leave the C-channels attached to the shell I would recommend it. I was able to get my flooring in without removing any at all, and the last piece was actually the easiest to get in place, go figure.
Look at Incaplastics.com for their H517 35 gallon waste holding tank. I have a space in my frame just behind the axle that this is made for. It will fit with about 1/8" to spare in both directions and the outlet will be just behind the streetside wheel. It hangs down below the bellypan, but with it's location near the axle it should be well protected from road hazards. That is for my grey water. The original black tank is sufficient for my needs, and doesn't hang down at all. I would never put in one that hangs below the bumper or frame at the rear of the trailer. When that thing hits the edge of a driveway, with a full tank behind it, you will have more problems than I would wish on my worst enemy(well, maybe).
The lowest point in my waste lines was the shower P-trap, which was 3" below the floor at its lowest point. This is the original installation, and It works as intended with this much drop. The grey tank will fill up until the tank is full, and then back up into the shower. If I was to raise the tub at all I would have to sit down to shower, and it would only serve to give me about 1 cup of additional grey water capacity, due to the additional few inches of drain pipe above the floor. I had to ponder this a long time to figure out how it works.
I've heard of black tank installations in which the tank projected up through the floor a couple of inches, rather than hanging down below the frame. I don't subscribe to either of these applications. If it's above the floor entirely it's preferable to having it project through the floor, where you would then have a huge section of flooring removed to allow that tank to fit. Hanging below the frame is a disaster waiting to happen, as mentioned above.

Best to you this holiday season,
Rich the Viking
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Old 12-27-2009, 11:15 AM   #25
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The lowest point in my waste lines was the shower P-trap, which was 3" below the floor at its lowest point. This is the original installation, and It works as intended with this much drop. The grey tank will fill up until the tank is full, and then back up into the shower.
Hey Viking,

This is really interesting. I've been under the assumption that I needed to build a base for our shower to raise it enough to keep the p-trap above the floor, or at least keep it above the top of the gray water tank. How is the drain routed from the shower p-trap to the gray water tank? Is it below the floor as well? If yes, does it enter the side of the tank?

Chris
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Old 12-27-2009, 03:20 PM   #26
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Hi Minno,
The P-trap drops into the floor and comes right back up out of it, then the drain pipe runs directly on top of the floor and goes around the front of the tub, to the back of the black tank where it enters a Y just behind the waste valve. There was no grey tank in '64, so when I add one I will route the drain to the area under the galley sink where it will drop into the new grey tank. This line will carry the water from both sinks and the shower into the grey tank, and the drain line going to the old black tank will get a valve put into it, so I can direct grey water into the black tank when I want to utilize all of my tank capacity.
The tub was raised up on 2 x 4s in my safari and has a 1/2" plywood base attached to the underside of the tub, but the P-trap was still 3" into the floor even with that. I'll attach a pic of it. You asked this at the right time. Not too often do you see these in this orientation. The edge of the surround, just below the P trap in pic #2 would sit on the floor, and the P trap would be completely below the floor. I hope this helps.
Rich the Viking
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Old 12-27-2009, 03:50 PM   #27
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Viking - yes, the pics helped a lot!

Thanks,
Chris
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Old 12-31-2009, 06:43 PM   #28
Confused in Bham
 
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With all the help from everyone, I have made great strides (I think) since my last post. Today it rained pretty hard and with the inner skin off, and the insulation cleaned up, I was able to see the leaks that may pose a problem in the future. The usual suspects: windows, vents, and a few loose rivets. Seemed like the top row of rivets on the ceiling were letting in moisture but not real drops.
The floor is out, and the belly pan is down. I've got a pretty good gap of 'air' in the back just to the left of the back door. Noticed that between the frame, and the C-Channel, I have a about 1/4 inch bigger gap than the floor needed. Not sure what this means. I'll let the pics speak for themselves.
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