delusional?

[bueller]

Hi guys. New to the forum seeking not only my first AS but my first camping trailer. I've been more of a pack it in pack it out backpacker type, but now family dictates otherwise.

Am I delusional to think that I can get a vintage AS (looking at an all original 1970 Trade Wind right now) that may need some maintenance items, road worth by June for less than $10k? The current owner hasn't had it on the road since 08 but it has been used as an apartment/guest house so it's all hooked up to his septic/electric. He wants almost $7k for it, and cosmetically the interior is in very good to excellent shape and the skin is in good shape (tires excluded). The only thing not working, he claims, is the AC, and there's a pin hole in the grey water tank.

We're planning to sell most of our household belongings and both cars to make this purchase plus get a newer used tow vehicle toward the end of the school year.

I think my bubble may have been burst but let me know your opinion.

BTW, I'm not looking to restore this thing, just get it road worthy and allow myself, my wife, my 2 year old, and my to be infant child to travel in it for 6-8 weeks next summer. Then when we find a place to home stead, perhaps have to live in it until winter arrives. Also, I'm a teacher so I'm not exactly banking these days.

TIA,
Matt

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by bueller

Hi guys. New to the forum seeking not only my first AS but my first camping trailer. I've been more of a pack it in pack it out backpacker type, but now family dictates otherwise.

Am I delusional to think that I can get a vintage AS (looking at an all original 1970 Trade Wind right now) that may need some maintenance items, road worth by June for less than $10k? The current owner hasn't had it on the road since 08 but it has been used as an apartment/guest house so it's all hooked up to his septic/electric. He wants almost $7k for it, and cosmetically the interior is in very good to excellent shape and the skin is in good shape (tires excluded). The only thing not working, he claims, is the AC, and there's a pin hole in the grey water tank.

We're planning to sell most of our household belongings and both cars to make this purchase plus get a newer used tow vehicle toward the end of the school year.

I think my bubble may have been burst but let me know your opinion.

BTW, I'm not looking to restore this thing, just get it road worthy and allow myself, my wife, my 2 year old, and my to be infant child to travel in it for 6-8 weeks next summer. Then when we find a place to home stead, perhaps have to live in it until winter arrives. Also, I'm a teacher so I'm not exactly banking these days.

TIA,
Matt

Matt.

Gray tanks were not installed until the 1974 modesl.

Most likely, the water heater, because of it's age, should be replaced.

The furnace should be removed and overhauled.

All the exterior gaskets will need replacing, especially the sewer vent pipe cover gaskets.

The following will help you check out the axles, but be aware that torsion axles average out to last 25 to 30 years, and then must be replaced if the trailer will be on the road.

The Dura-Torque Axle

The reefer burner will need cleaning.

Check for LPG leaks.

The exterior seams may need some resealing.

If you wish, you can update the tail and clearance lights with LED's, especially if your planning on any night traveling.

Andy

[louaxtjr]

Matt,
If you are a handy with tools and not opposed to applying elbow grease, you might find what you are looking for. As I am sure you have read, the big things to look for are solid floor ( no rear end separation ), good axles, and no leaks. Almost anything else is relatively easy to fix, although not always inexpensive.

The 66 TW my wife and I obtained was sitting much like the AS you are looking for. We were lucky the trailer had the weight off the axles and had little water leakage. Cosmetically, however, our 66 needed quite a bit and is in fact still in process. We ended up repairing the fresh water tank, replacing the hot water heater, water pump, flooring, replumbing (pex), and too many repairs to list. Although our TW is mostly original looking, it is still far from a show piece and has been made to work for us as seasonal ( and soon to be full-time) accommodation. We accomplished this for under $10K but have a number of external blemishes and a yet-to-be-completed bath cabinet, among other things.

To determine how realistic your budget might be depends a lot on your expectations. Will you mind carrying tools and fiddling with mechanicals while using the trailer to avoid spending more? Are you comfortable diagnosing and repairing or would you prefer to leave that to an expert? Are you ok with spending the time to hunt down used parts wherever possible?

In any case, I wish you the best of luck in your search.

[andreasduess]

It's an old trailer.

Chances are, it will need more work than you think it needs. It'll cost double the money (if you're lucky) and will take twice as long as your worst case estimate.

You've got young kids. How happy will your wife be to be the primary, or only, caregiver while you're trying to get that trailer habitable? I know mine would have... opinions, and rightly so.

We're in a very similar situation to yours, family wise. In the past, I've restored classic cars and renovated old houses. As a result, when it came to buying our trailer, we purchased an older model (we couldn't afford a new one without getting into debt) from a reputable dealer with all the kinks ironed out.

We hitched up and towed away to our first camping weekend. I am convinced that this saved me money, and my sanity, in the long run.

Not trying to tell you what to do, just sharing my experiences. Feel free to disregard as the ramblings of a madman.

[Belegedhel]

I don't think it is unrealistic that you can find a trailer and have it roadworthy by June within your budget--but don't expect it to be easy.

Step one, you need to research, research, research and arm yourself with the knowledge of what to look for, and how to perform an in-depth inspection. Your plan hinges mostly on finding the right trailer (best mechanical condition possible for the money), not finding the cheapest trailer, the trailer closest to home, or earliest in your search.

All previous owners think that their trailer is in "pretty good" shape. They aren't being dishonest, they just don't know how to really inspect a trailer either, and they aren't really trying to find problems, as they want to get rid of it for the highest price possible. Don't buy a cheap trailer thinking that you will be able to do all the upgrades, repairs, and replacements necessary. You won't have the time or the money--remember, everything will take twice as long as you think, and cost twice as much (at least). It isn't good enough that a PO tells you "everything was working the last time we used it in 2009." You want to see actual evidence that things have been replaced or repaired.

good luck!

[TG Twinkie]

$7K is only the starting point. Even without a full restoration in mind. That figure could increase by 50% to 100%. New axles, tires, new refer, new water heater, new converter and fuse block, new furnace, new air conditioner and the list goes on.
A coach without a grey water tank will pose some challenges. Especially for a family with 2 young children. It won't be a problem if you have full hookups.
IMHO $7K is too high for a coach of this age that is originally equipped.

[NJtoNC]

I would be leery of any pinholes in the holding tanks. It's a lot of work to get those out and replace them. If I recall in my fathers 1970 Safari , Airstream had just cut a 3 inch hole in the 4 inch frame to exit the sewer pipe on the side of the trailer. Since then I have seen many 1970 safaris with the same issue. His had considerable leakage in that area that rusted some of the frame making it easier to fail, which it did.

This is something I would consider a design flaw. The trade wind has the same layout. If water has been coming out of the holding tank I would suspect it could have rusted some of the frame. I would jump on the back bumper good and hard.

[Belegedhel]

And another thing....

I see the expression "all original" used as a selling point all the time. Buying a pre-70's trailer in "original" condition is great if you want to painstakingly restore the thing to its original splendor and use it as a show piece. For a 70's vintage trailer that you want to get on the road ASAP, "all original" just means that there is an entire interior's worth of stuff that needs to be replaced. Many of the people who do full renovations of 70's trailers try to give away the interiors for free, and still don't have any takers. Don't regard work done/items replaced as somehow perverting the "originality" of a trailer--its work that you don't have to do yourself.

But, be warned--there are sloppy repairs/mods that are a big red flag. New hardwood flooring installed over a rotten subfloor is an issue. RV fridges replaced with cheap 110V "dorm" fridges are a problem. Again, do a search for "inspection checklist" and you will find the items to be on the lookout for. Also check out vintageairstream.com, there is a section on "price vs. condition" that will help you to evaluate whether something is a "deal" or not.

[mtbguy]

If you are handy with tools and don't mind getting dirty, you can have it ready to go in six months. Last winter I bought an 1976 Argosy 26 that was in good structural shape but with tired interior, a few inoperative appliances. I have redone upholstery, new water heater, fixed the A/C and got the fridge running, along with new tires, countertops, etc. I have spent around 6-7k (including purchase price). I'm good at finding stuff on Ebay/craigslist/etc for parts and supplies so that helps keep down costs.

For what its worth, I was able to use the trailer for several trips during the renovation, it was just not always pretty or with some systems inoperative for a specific trip, like when I removed water heater and hadn't put new one in yet.

Now the only thing I really want to do is replace axles with new ones/new brakes for long trip to Colorado next year.

I recently bought a second Argosy 26 and was going to fix it up also, but my wife protested so may just sell that one for what I paid for it. I guess the spouses only have so much patience for projects!

Love the username!

[bueller]

WOW! You guys are so helpful and great. Thanks for all of your insights, advice, and experiences. I feel a little better about the possibility of this happening!

Clarification: The fresh water holding tank (I couldn't remember if he said grey water or fresh water tank) doesn't have a pin hole. Rather, it has a drill hole. I can't remember exactly what the story was, as this old gentleman told me lots of cool stories, but somehow, I think when replacing/repairing the toilet, a hole was drilled into the top of the tank. So, it splashes a little when moving. Sounds like it would be a drop the tank and patch situation (at best).

I can't remember if the jacks were up or down, but one of the tires was low (not flat) and probably needed replacing. He has done a lot of fixes, including all new screens, all new seals around windows and doors and vents, many new exterior/interior bulbs, and it looked like up until recently someone was living in it (septic and electric were run out the trailer and the septic was still hooked into his home's septic system). They must have been a good tenant, because although the carpet was older, and the interior original, it was all in excellent shape. The "broken" interior piece were the drapes. Some of the little sliding plastic anchors were broken at the bottom of each pleat. We didn't feel any soft floors. There was a couple of broken white plastic door catches on a couple of cabinets--the kind that you have to squeeze to unlock. The oven and stovetop were clean as was the bathroom. All has been pretty well taken care of throughout the years. He's the 2nd owner but I think he's owned it since the '70s.

BTW, my wife spotted this in his backyard as we came back from scoping out a '79 31' excella that was gutted and in sad shape. That guy wanted $4500! Way too gone and too much to do AND too highly priced. So she saw this TW and I said let's go see if its for sale! Turns out he had a for sale sign in the window months ago, but took it out. Old country gentleman with hearing aids, old faded wrangler jeans, and Santa white hair. His wife was so friendly and cordial too. I think we were there over an hour visiting and checking out the trailer. I DON'T think he was trying to pull anything over on us. Just my gut feeling.

Thanks again. As time moves on, hopefully nobody else shows interest in it, and I can get a fellow forum member to come with to check it out for me to see what is a reasonable price, what may need fixed, etc.

Thanks again everyone.
Matt

[DKB_SATX]

$4500 seems to be a popular asking price for gutted 31' trailers in the DFW area... I inspected a '78 at that price point recently.

I'd say that your $10k for "camp-ready but not perfect" is not unreasonable, but there's lots of chaff to sort through before you find the good ones.

It's a good sign that he's owned it for a long time and seems to have maintained it well, especially if he used it until relatively recently. If it's been sitting since 2008, the tires absolutely, positively need to be replaced before you take it more than a few miles.

Without having seen it, I feel like $7k is high for having the original axles, leaking freshwater tank and no functioning air conditioner. I rate the water tank and no AC problems as most of that problem, because most '70s trailers for sale need new axles. Those of us who've replaced our axles did so because we plan to keep/use the trailer for a while.

Curtains are also a normal problem in an older trailer, esp. one that's lived in Texas. Depending on how much you want to do yourself vs. spend, they can be as cheap as the cost of the materials or you can spend close to a grand or so to get VERY nice custom-made drapes from one of the companies that know the exact measurements for nearly all the trailers Airstream has produced and will send a set of ready-to-install drapes.

[mtbguy]

Do the drapes yourself. We just bought a really nice older singer sewing machine on local Craigslist for $75. My wife bought $50 of fabric and we are starting on curtains this weekend. I had crazy expensive quotes from local places to do them.

[TG Twinkie]

If he drilled a hole in the tank near the toilet. It is the black water tank. Not fresh water. If it is the top of the tank, it can probably be patched successfully.

[Wazbro]

Originally Posted by DKB_SATX

If it's been sitting since 2008, the tires absolutely, positively need to be replaced before you take it more than a few miles.

X5 a tire blowing out going down the road can cause $$$$ damages, often enough to total a trailer that's over 20 years old (unless you fix it yourself and don't mind it not being perfect).

[bueller]

Good call Faz. I'd tow to a tire shop immediately then head home. It's less than 100 miles to get back home but that's far enough to warrant new tires before the trip. What can I expect to pay for appropriate tires? What brands? Would only RV shops carry them? Good info. Thanks everyone.

Matt

[DKB_SATX]

Originally Posted by bueller

Good call Faz. I'd tow to a tire shop immediately then head home. It's less than 100 miles to get back home but that's far enough to warrant new tires before the trip. What can I expect to pay for appropriate tires? What brands? Would only RV shops carry them? Good info. Thanks everyone.

Matt

Oh, jeez... tire questions.

For a '70s tandem-axle trailer, I like Michelin LTX 235/75R15. They fit on the stock 15" rims, don't have the ST speed limitations, seem to be better about failures and cost about the same as a decent-brand ST in a comparable size.

Some tire shops will fall to the ground and start speaking in tongues if you ask what they're for, some will smile and take your money. Whatever tires you choose, have them balanced. Nearly all tire stores will tell you they never balance trailer tires, to which I think the correct answer is along the lines of "You'll balance mine, or someone else will be happy to sell me some."

[Jammer]

Tire questions have a history of generating large numbers of opinionated posts.

There is a good chance you have split rims. If so they should be replaced as well as the tires. It is important to get zero offset rims.

You can get tires and rims at any tire shop but there is a good chance that both will have to be special ordered.

The original tires would have been 7.00x15 6 ply tires. These were bias ply tires. Tires in this size are still available but most people recommend using radials instead.

The most common radial replacement is 225/75R15 trailer tires in load range C, which are slightly smaller in diameter but have a larger section width and therefore a slightly higher rated load.

Opinions on brands vary widely. I use and recommend Goodyear Marathons.

As others have suggested, be sure that the wheels are balanced.

You're looking at around $100 a tire depending on brand.

[Foiled Again]

More CHA-Ching out the door, but overall possibly less than you'll spend on fixing up a 70's trailer. (I'm on my third Airstream... sold one, rolled one, this'n is the HOLD one.) It's a 2012 Eddie Bauer. It came with every expensive doo-dad available including solar panels, an inverter, two televisions, sound system, a Hensley hitch and even 4 scare lights instead of the standard 1. Of course it also has standard 16 inch rims and Michelin tires. The stars aligned so that I got it for about $25K less than a new one. The plastic was still on the mattress, the shower had the labels on the fiberglass and the toilet had never been used. Someone with lots of money bought it, then realized it was a fantasy they had no time for and no interest in pursuing. They had the sense to cut their losses, I grabbed a great deal.

I got a loan at just over 4% interest. Rates are up a bit, but are still at historic lows. If you're going to finance anything, now is a relatively non-toxic time to do it. Talk to you tax man about having a deduction as a second home.

I'm not a creature who enjoys debt - not at ALL and in an uncertain economy - well I LIVE in mine which puts a whole different spin on things too. Living beyond your means is BAD period, full stop, end of discussion. But living so meanly that the almost all of your childhood memories are about how your departed parents "could squeeze a nickel til the buffalo pooped in their hands" isn't a great thing either. If camping is going to be a feature in your life for the next 5 to 10 years while your kids are growing up, then CONSIDER getting a gently used one and financing it at today's low rates. You should know the BARE minimum costs of fixing up an old one - New A/C $800 if you can do the install yourself, $1200 if you have it done. Axles? Might as well get them loaded with new brakes for safety $1100 each is in the neighborhood. Tires... well look at the discussions about bad 15 inch tires and upgrade to 16 inch rims and tires and there's another $1000 gone. Then the water heater is $400 at least. Then a bit of frame repair and some floor replacement, and that orange shag carpet has to go, and the foam smells like dog urine, and and and.

You can be finishing up a renovation north of $25,000 if you do most of the labor yourself - realistically if you want P & S or one of the other reputable shops to do the work, you're looking at $60K.

The hint is.... that ain't too far from what I spent on the EB.

If I HAD children they'd already have 2.5 months of camping memories in my new rig. I watch small children "help" daddy by putting down the pads for the stabilizer jacks and crank them down... or carry wood for the marshmallow roast. Put a price on THAT. Spending time with your kids is done one day at a time and it doesn't take a whole lot of money to have great fun whether it's birdwatching, pitching stones across a lake, fishing, or even sitting in camp chairs drinking root beer and practicing burping loudly.

The right answer can vary hugely from family to family. Consider all the other demands on your time and your wallet... and consider what you might have to do without to have each version of your dream. Instant gratification - well if it costs less than doing a "fixer upper" and it gives you more family time. Why not?

Paula

[TG Twinkie]

You can get tires for the coach at Wal-mart. SAMs Club may have them, but I am not a member.
If you like paying more, go to an RV dealer.
As mentioned above. ZERO offset rims are needed.

[JeweloJalopy]

You might want to look at other brands as well. Streamlined, Silver Stream, Scion are all aircraft construction but at a lower entry point.

We have less than $5k into ours and just took it kn a 2 week 2900 mile trip without incident. Granted the furnace doesn't work and it has a few dings, but we love our Countess.

We also have 2 kids (2 and 6) plus our own busines so we didn't have time for a full restoration.