Confirm that New Means New - Through Inspection

[OTRA15]

The trailer was damaged in transit from JC to the dealer according to the earlier post. I imagine JC stays on top of all deliveries until they are received safely and intact. When the title actually passes to the dealer is kind of secondary IMO.

It is highly likely that Airstream [Jackson Center] knew exactly what happened to the trailer IMO.

How else could they have authorized the dealer to do the repairs?

[SteveSueMac]

Originally Posted by OTRA15

Did you miss the following in Post #7, which I quoted in Post #13?


AS is in up to its neck on this IMO.

Peter

I understand that Peter. What I’m saying is - I suspect the dealer most likely owns it in transit (I worked for a computer manufacturer - when they sold products to a reseller, the reseller took possession at time of sale and revenue was recognized - even if we stored it in our facility until shipped to them, the instant it was sold, the reseller owned it).

I don’t know what authorization they were seeking unless it was some financial arrangement to not penalize the dealer for the shipping damage repair, sort of a private insurance transaction? Even calling JC for authorization to fix it - that doesn’t mean someone from the factory goes to the dealer to inspect what was done.

AS doesn’t enter in to sales with end users. They sell though the dealer network. The dealer should have disclosed what happened, including - this got damaged in shipment, we called the factory and they gave us options for repairing it - we went with the cheaper option of non-bucked rivets...etc....

If there’s a problem on the part of AS, it’s the level to which they choose to certify the integrity of their dealers. If I owned AS and found one of my dealers didn’t have the ethical integrity to disclose this to the end user, they’d no longer be a dealer for my company.

[Markum]

I purchased 2019 Flying Cloud 26U from a dealer, new! Turn out it was damaged and repaired ( back left side including rear left window, rear and side storage door) and they did not disclosed the repair before I purchased. Luckily two months later at Jackson Center, they question me about the shoddy repair. I had know idea and was in total shock. The dealer did agree to have Jackson Center repair the shoddy original repair and all is fine. Looks new and I am still upset with dealer and what they did. I just have to move on with my life and enjoy the trailer. Oh, I did contact several lawyers and they said there,s not enough money to be made for them to get involved with fraud, etc. I live in Florida.

[OTRA15]

Originally Posted by SteveSueMac

I understand that Peter.
. . .

Thanks for the detailed reply.

It it is highly likely, in my personal opinion, that someone [*] at Airstream knew the whole truth, and chose to remain silent, knowing that an unsuspecting buyer would be stuck with a second-rate Airstream, being sold as "new."



Bet this is not the only time something like this has happened!

Agree to disagree.

[ ***** lingering bad taste in mouth about Airstream ***** ]

__________________________________________________ ________________________________________
[*] -- Get this "someone" on the stand as a witness, in a trial for fraud/misrepresentation, and a good trial lawyer would have a field day digging into Airstream's complicity in this [and other similarly situated events] -- in my personal opinion.

[xrvr]

You hate,em dont you. This is bad situation. Were the repairs of good quality? Expertly done? If so, i would have needed a great discount, if not, the dealer gets it back!

[SteveSueMac]

Originally Posted by OTRA15

Thanks for the detailed reply.

It it is highly likely, in my personal opinion, that someone [*] at Airstream knew the whole truth, and chose to remain silent, knowing that an unsuspecting buyer would be stuck with a second-rate Airstream, being sold as "new."



Bet this is not the only time something like this has happened!

Agree to disagree.

[ ***** lingering bad taste in mouth about Airstream ***** ]

__________________________________________________ ________________________________________
[*] -- Get this "someone" on the stand as a witness, in a trial for fraud/misrepresentation, and a good trial lawyer would have a field day digging into Airstream's complicity in this [and other similarly situated events] -- in my personal opinion.

[emoji3] I dig your sense of justice! I have that gene too. Where we differ is that AS the company doesn’t sell to end users - they sell through a dealer network. There’s really nothing for AS to disclose in this case - but something they COULD do differently (see below). The dealer seems shady to me - and we just heard from another buyer who had a similar situation. Is the whole network crooked?

So I go back to AS’s responsibility being one of checking the ethics and integrity of their dealers and taking more of an interest in ensuring not just technical knowledge but treating people fairly - which seems an exceedingly low bar...if a dealer can’t just fess up that the thing was damaged in transit and repaired - how tough is that?

I’m wondering if Justin is reading this? If so - this would be a good case study to have a gut check with the dealer network and with leadership at AS. If AS knows and expects some % of trailers will get damaged in transit, for the sale of the integrity of the brand, they should demand their dealers:

a) repair to factory standards or send back to the factory for like-new repairs (and the fact that some dealers can’t meet factory standards would be another issue to resolve...)

b) disclose the fact of the accident and repairs to every potential buyer - maybe a special colored label or something,

c) warrant the repairs for 5 years, and

d) offer a minimum X% discount off MSRP in consideration

Sheesh...there was a time when one would expect honesty and integrity first....(I’m headed toward “and get off my lawn!” now so I’ll end it here....)

[OTRA15]

Originally Posted by xrvr

. . .
. . . hate . . .
. . .

Not hate . . . more like extreme indignation that our company would treat one member of our family like this!

Originally Posted by SteveSueMac

[emoji3] I dig your sense of justice! . . .

[uncle_bob]

Hi

Like it or not AS has pretty much zero control over the dealers. Welcome to the RV business. Indeed there aren't a lot of dealers out there so it's not like hundreds are standing in line to get franchises.

If JC authorized the repair, that's fine. Stuff happens. The alternative is to scrap the trailer. In no way can I imagine selling it for scrap is the right answer to damage in transit.

If I was shopping and a dealer *explained* the situation *and* offered a bit of a discount, I very much doubt any of this thread would be here. It is not (yet) clear to me that the dealer who did the repair is the dealer who sold the trailer. If indeed they are one in the same, they would have known and should have disclosed.

Dealer issue pure and simple.

Bob

[SteveSueMac]

And Bob’s my uncle [emoji3][emoji3]

[Ray Eklund]

Auto Dealers in flood prone areas operated not much differently than damaged trailers.

Finding a large mouth bass under the back seat of a SUV in the Summer is a hint. Often sold as salvage after Insurance has paid, then sold off to a scrap yard, resold, cleaned up and sold to an unsuspecting customer, somewhere else.

'Salvage Titles' or Rebuilt titles can be deceiving.

Anyone living in southern Nevada knows that we have striped bass, but not large mouth bass. Duh...

Consumers need to be aware and vigilant in a walk through. Never be embarrassed to ask questions. If it does not make sense, it may cost you 'cents'.

[rsementi]

Airstream quality is a joke. It takes an honest, efficient and detail oriented ENGINEER to detect, investigate and reveal a massive mistake on their brand new 2019 trailer. And what is AS doing about it? Nothing. In another thread I read something about that AS was creating some committee, another layer of bs bureaucracy just to make themselves feel like they’re doing something about it.

[silverhio]

So, after all that you have a door that is a little wonky? I wonder if brand new units off the line are more perfect or less.

Airline pilots say that a 40 year old jet flies better than a new one. This is because almost the entire jet has been rebuilt by then.

Which is better or worse - assembling by hand, or slapping it together in the time allowed and moving it down the line to the next guy?

This post makes it sound like repairs are bad. They can be if done by a bad mechanic, and RV industry has a lot of those, or can be better than the factory build if done by anyone skilled.

There is nothing on an AS that cannot be rebuilt or repaired to good as new or better, so do not get scared by a repair, instead just inspect it…

[Cobalt]

Originally Posted by uraljohn

I have worked in several new car dealerships (Oldsmobile, GMC, AMC, Volvo, Infinite, Ford) and you would be shocked at how many cars/trucks are damaged in transit and repaired by the dealer and sold as new.
I have seen cars/trucks come in with drivability issues, leaks, wrong wheels and tires, non working A/C (no Freon), and on and on. Just the way it is.

Back in the mid 70's General Motors produced a very nice line of motor homes. The Oldsmobile/GMC dealer I worked for at the time sold them. Lots and lots of issues with transport. Patch it up and ship it. Not much has changed.

Yes, I bought a new Miata and after about 6 months the back quarter panel “just didn’t look right.” It was a shade or two different. Found out it’s common practice for car haulers, assume independent, if they damaged a car would have a few painters, mechanics, etc along the route and would stop and get it fixed.

[vintageracer]

The responsibility for the damage may or may not be that of the transporter. "I" would find it hard to believe that the "Shipping Company" used by Airstream to transport their new trailers to their dealers would NOT be ICC registered and properly insured.

Airstream IS the shipper of record for the Bill Of Lading as the shipment was shipped from their location upon payment in full for the trailer based upon the sales documents.

Airstream's customer is the Airstream dealer who may or may not have arranged for the shipping of the trailer. If the dealer did not arrange the shipping then Airstream arranged the shipping. If a trailer is damaged by a shipper a claim is filed BY THE SHIPPER of record which in this situation is Airstream no matter who arranged for or paid for the shipment.

All this is fully dependent upon the receiving party, in this case the Airstream dealer, completing an inspection of the trailer upon delivery to them and BEFORE acceptance of the delivery. Once the party receiving the shipment accepts the shipment that's it. You can't go back on the shipper for damages they may or may not have caused after the fact because you were to lazy, busy or plain just didn't care about doing a delivery inspection once you "Accept" the shipment by signing the delivery paperwork.

Therefore IF this trailer was damaged in shipment, the shipper was insured AND this damage was reported by the receiving Airstream dealer upon their pre-delivery acceptance inspection before their acceptance of the trailer delivery then 4 different parties were aware of the damage. Airstream the manufacturer as the shipper, the transport company, the transport company insuror IF the transporter was ICC registered/insured and the Airstream dealer.

There is another possibility.

This trailer may have been damaged at Airstream Jackson Center and shipped damaged. Upon receipt the dealer noted the damage and therefore Airstream authorized the repair. All transporters these days do EXTENSIVE PRE SHIPMENT INSPECTIONS of their vehicle/trailer cargo prior to their acceptance of the cargo noting any defects or previous damage prior to their acceptance of the load so as not be held responsible for any existing damage that existed prior to the shipment. The "Shipper" signs this transporter inspection sheet as their acceptance of the cargo condition assessment and as such agrees with the inspection.

There is more to this damage story than you may have been told as EVERYONE involved probably knew of the damage to this trailer, what the damage was and when it occurred.

IF this trailer truly was damaged by the shipper during shipment and the shipper was insured somebody (Airstream Jackson Center or the Airstream Dealer) GOT PAID for the damage to be repaired. If the trailer was shipped damaged from Airstream the repair was on Airstream's dime! The pre-shipment inspection papers and the pre-delivery inspection acceptance signature on the Bill of Lading will tell the tale of what may have happened.

I would find it hard to believe that Airstream Jackson Center would "Authorize" or pay for damage to the trailer that was caused by and occurred at the Airstream dealer location.

I ship vehicles all the time across the country using ICC insured shippers. Shipping 1 to California and 1 to Hilton Head Island this week and as such am very familiar with the responsibilities of me the shipper, the transporter and the party receiving the shipment.

The above "May" explain the cause of the damage however the above does NOT relieve the dealer of his moral responsibility and possible legal responsibility to disclose to the original purchaser the previous damage history this NEW trailer experienced.

[Msherw]

Originally Posted by rsementi

Airstream quality is a joke. It takes an honest, efficient and detail oriented ENGINEER to detect, investigate and reveal a massive mistake on their brand new 2019 trailer. And what is AS doing about it? Nothing. In another thread I read something about that AS was creating some committee, another layer of bs bureaucracy just to make themselves feel like they’re doing something about it.

As I have said on many threads - We visited the Mothership in JC in 2018 and I was appalled at the QC on the line. QC 'Kids' reading their smartphones waiting for the 4pm buzzer to send them home (or to a nice cool bar). They could just camp inside a unit being built by others, and glance once in a while at the work being done. Nice work if you can get it...

Folks, this is the state of RV construction today. Yes, AS is MUCH better than the SOB crowd, but it lacks the effort you will find from the 40s-70s. Youtube videos of the factory back then tells a different story than today's assembly line. Been there and SEEN that. The QC kids today are a far cry from their grandparents who worked the assembly line.

Buyer be aware of anything you buy. Transport is another story. Truckers today...well that is a huge issue.

[Streamin]

Had this happen to me only it wasn't transportation damage. Dealership damage sold as new...no one at the dealership said a word.
Realized something was amiss when we went to disconnect and sewage poured on my hands. The block that held the valves was damaged and while I was crouched by the side I noticed that the rivets were different in the big back seam.

[switz]

Had an unusual Dodge/Chrysler mini van show up at the local dealership in the lt 80s. One side was Dodge trim, the other side was Chrysler Town & Country trim. Wonder if any Airstreams ever came out with different decals between the two sides?...

[Slats]

My law practice of 45 years was spent entirely in the realm of consumer protection. I keenly remember when a manufacturer and its franchise dealers in the 1980s sold the manfacturer’s “executive driven” cars that had never been titled (i.e., came to the dealer on the MSO) as “new” cars. The cars were touted as having only been driven a short time by the manufacturer’s executives. While that much might have been true, what the buyers were not told is how the executives had driven them. Some drove them into a concrete culvert. Others into a bridge abutment. Still others into another car. Both the manufacturer and its selling dealers knew good and well what was going on. From my years of experience I can tell you this: if someone says a manufacturer has no control over how its dealers represent the goods they sell, they have never seen the manufacturer’s internal policy and procedure manuals.

As for the few that are astute enough to detect this kind of fraud (better known as stealing by deceit), they only rarely make it to a lawyer who knows how to handle such cases. The same goes for the folks who only discover they have been cheated when they subsequently are involved in a fender-bender and the body shop guy shows them the tell-tale signs of previous damage. Even of those lucky enough to find a lawyer to take their case, many simply settle for a replacement vehicle, many times on terms that benefit the dealer. I always likened this, at best, to letting a robber simply give back the money he stole.

What manufacturers and dealers fear is having a jury of the consumer’s peers judge their conduct. Such cases have resulted in $1 mil.+ punitive damages verdicts. But even so, such verdicts have been no real deterrent. They are simply looked upon as the cost of doing “business”.

And here’s the rub. These days if you catch crooks like this they no longer fear juries. That is because virtually every contract consumers sign to get a credit card, a cell phone, a job, a car or a house (including our beloved houses on wheels), will contain an arbitration clause. And just about everyone who signs such contracts will have no idea they have signed away their Seventh Amendment right to a trial by jury. And it wouldn’t make any difference if they did, because just about every other business will require them to sign the same thing as a condition of the sale. Imagine the uproar if folks had to sign away their Second Amendment rights in order to buy a car. No one would stand for it. How it happened that we routinely sign away our Seventh Amendment rights is, unfortunately, a long story that is not easily told in TV sound bites. But it has happened and the powers that be aren’t all that keen to do anything about it.

[turk123]

Vintage racer:

IF this trailer truly was damaged by the shipper during shipment and the shipper was insured somebody (Airstream Jackson Center or the Airstream Dealer) GOT PAID for the damage to be repaired. If the trailer was shipped damaged from Airstream the repair was on Airstream's dime! The pre-shipment inspection papers and the pre-delivery inspection acceptance signature on the Bill of Lading will tell the tale of what may have happened.


I am assuming from the original poster that this was shipped to California. Quite a long distance.

Airstream uses almost exclusively one transport company to ship their product. As Vintageracer says, it is probably Airstream JC that is responsible for any issues during transport. Transport we have to assume has insurance that would be payable to Airstream JC. You can guess why Airstream JC would want the dealer to repair the unit (why ship back to Ohio if the dealer can repair it) and you can also guess that the dealer made money on the repair.

What for the life of me I don't understand why the dealer would not disclose this? Airstream JC has been shipping products for a very long time. Would you not agree that the transport's insurance would have to cover any discounting to the vehicle in order for the dealer to disclose the issue? So who took advantage of the situation, Airstream JC for wiping their hands clean of the issue or the dealer who probably blatantly lied to the seller about it being "new" and selling it to him without a discount that they probably received from the insurance company.

My guess is the blame may fall almost entirely on the dealer who knew he could make more money overall on the deal.

Can you post the serial number and model of the trailer so those looking for a Classic 30 can avoid this one? Where is it now???

[smithcreek]

Originally Posted by rsementi

Airstream quality is a joke. It takes an honest, efficient and detail oriented ENGINEER to detect, investigate and reveal a massive mistake on their brand new 2019 trailer. And what is AS doing about it? Nothing. In another thread I read something about that AS was creating some committee, another layer of bs bureaucracy just to make themselves feel like they’re doing something about it.

It's almost like, you didn't even read the original post. No, wait, it's just like that.