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Old 10-30-2008, 01:33 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by sander17 View Post
A common thought running thru this thread is the concept of a corporation being "American"

I felt that the common thought is the concept of a corporation being an individual. A fat, greedy, short sighted individual who should accept the fact that he has only himself to blame. In reality these corporations have evolved into this mess under the (mis)leadership of several CEOs and management teams, trying to cater to fickle buyers and the UAW. Everyone involved needs to accept their portion of the blame. Punish the corporation and you punish everyone.

The domestics need revenue to improve their product. Not just a desire and a vision. Cold, hard cash. That money comes from sales. If we don't support them, then no R & D. No R & D no new product, no quality improvements, no sales, no company. Who do you think funds the research and development of the Asian automakers? Their governments, that's who.

I say we have a responsibility to buy domestic autos. I say our government has a responsibility to see that these companies survive. The old cliche that buying a Japanese car is "UNAMERICAN." has never been more true.

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Old 10-30-2008, 03:40 PM   #72
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...obviously spoken from the standpoint of a real working person who thus far remains unscathed. Will that tune change if it it hits your home? I don't suppose you have some jobs you can export to Michigan to let us all get real too? Or should we just disappear now that the jobs have?

Throwing out random sentiment and prejudiced generalities and stereotypes that people are inherently lazy and don't pull themselves up by their boot straps (got boots?) is very grievious and harmful and that kind of dangerous thing seems to spread like wildfire... an even more bitter pill than loss of income and benefits and gainful employment and purpose. The point is thousands of people are finding themselves in a position they never thought would happen to them.

Where are our cheerleaders? Let's try to paint a better picture, hmm?
Ever trail has puddles so I have become self-reliant and I don't like the government trying to "solve" everything for us using yours and my tax $$$$$
And yes I wear boots and have NOT gone unscathed in life, I have had to use the straps more than a few times.
But that the cowboy way.Ride easy the trail is long.
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Old 10-30-2008, 03:58 PM   #73
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Wonder if the Italian gov.. bailed out Ferrari when it was in trouble?

Did the British Gov. bail out Jaguar when it was in trouble?
These are good comparisons because as has been pointed out, it's a national security issue. In WW2 the domestic automakers made tanks, planes, engines for tanks, planes and military trucks, etc because we needed the manufacturing capacity to fuel the war effort. Could that happen again? Sure, it *could*.

After WW2, BMW was forbidden from building airplane anything, this was BMWs heritage, white propeller under a blue sky, it's current emblem found on BMW cars today.

My point to all this, is that if these companies were allowed to go to foreign hands, or allowed to wither and die, manufacturing capacity, should it ever be needed would not be possible or, worse yet, it's owned by a country like China or some other country that won't retool for the needs of the US Government as it did in WW2.

So you see, it really doesn't matter what England did with Jaguar because we yanks pulled them out of the fire and will most likely have to do it again should another non-nuclear world conflict happen since the Brits don't have the plants they had pre WW2 to make their own stuff.....even then we lend/leased them materials and machinery cause they couldn't produce their own stuff to meet the demand.

It matters not what Italy did with Ferrari or what Japan does with Nissan, Honda or Toyota....but it does matter if the big three disappear. The system won't allow something like that to happen because of a few things:

Industrial military complex
National Security

...and that folks in Government know they may need these resources one day as history has shown. It doesn't matter what *Joe* on the street thinks about it....the US Gov is not going to let these resources go away, plain and simple, even if it takes 100 billion or a trillion (as they have nearly given the banks). We ask taxpayers may hold stakes in these companies via the US Government, but that's just about it. We all will have an opinion about this, but at the end of the day, GM, the world's largest automaker with plants all over the world and Ford in a similar position will not be allowed to pack it in and go home or be sold to some other company housed in a different country. Chrysler? It could happen, but for sure not GM, not in my lifetime.
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Old 10-30-2008, 04:29 PM   #74
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This just in:

U.S. Treasury not negtiating new GM aid-official | Markets | Markets News | Reuters


But don't think that if the $$ is ever needed it won't be there for GM for other things to fend off it's demise.
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Old 10-30-2008, 04:47 PM   #75
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This just in:

U.S. Treasury not negtiating new GM aid-official | Markets | Markets News | Reuters


But don't think that if the $$ is ever needed it won't be there for GM for other things to fend off it's demise.
According to the report, the government is not giving GM the cash to buy Chrysler, it doesn't say anything about saving the company (or not) if it starts a death spiral.
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Old 10-30-2008, 05:03 PM   #76
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Lets just take a look at what companies GM has

Buick (junk)
Cadillac (you can get americans to buy them but thats it)
Chevrolet (no comment)
GMC (glorified Chevy)
GM Daewoo (big hunk of junk)
Holden (another name for Chevy in Eroupe)
Hummer (over priced Suburban)
Oldsmobile (it an't my dads is right)
Opel (Man can't beleive they still make it)
Pontiac (Nice in the '60's)
Saab (was good till GM bought them)
Saturn (Ok car)
Vauxhall (#2 seller in England, but junk)

This is how they got in a mess, Buying up companies that aren't making them more money than they spent to buy them... What are they thinking.

Why are we paying for a retooling?????? thats part of doing business... I don't care if it is national security (WHICH IT ISN"T) If we go to war and someone else owns it we just take it... We put the Japanese in camps in WWII, Took there stuff, and the Indians also "right Jimmy"

What it comes down to is bad business that isn't gonna change if they don't have to fix it themselves...

Look Ford bought Jaguar, and it wasn't making money then or now... Ford made the Jag look like a Ford and act like a Ford with a Jag sticker... My '89 has more character than the new ones... Ford screwed Jag up even more and know want to sell it.... The Big 3 need to work on there stuff not buying other stuff...
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Old 10-30-2008, 05:06 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by overlander63 View Post
According to the report, the government is not giving GM the cash to buy Chrysler, it doesn't say anything about saving the company (or not) if it starts a death spiral.

It starts people being accountable for the actions.... That's what it does...
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Old 10-30-2008, 06:30 PM   #78
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And to add, These are my opinions and not necessarily yours... Don't hate me please Just tolerate me...
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Old 10-30-2008, 06:44 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by purman View Post
We have 5 cars....
- '75 dodge 3/4 ton
- '89 Jaguar
- '90 Jeep Cherokee
- '01 4 Runner
- '08 Sequoia

I have had 2 chevy blazer's one an '01 traded for the '01 4 runner... They just didn't hold up... I buy for what I believe is quality.. IF it's made in the US great if not I will buy what is...

purman, you haven't owned a GM product snce your '01 Blazer, but yet you call eveything they make junk?

Even if it is, how do you propose these domestic manufacturers fix themselves? The cash these companies have will barely cover their operating costs for the next year. How are they expected to launch new product, improve quality, develop alternative fuel systems etc. without some help?

Roger
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Old 10-30-2008, 07:28 PM   #80
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"The cash these companies have will barely cover their operating costs for the next year. How are they expected to launch new product, improve quality, develop alternative fuel systems etc. without some help?"



Maybe in the same way they have accomplished all of those things during the boom era of the high profit-margin SUV...

which is to say that perhaps they won't.
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Old 10-30-2008, 07:52 PM   #81
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G m not.

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Originally Posted by RBolton View Post
purman, you haven't owned a GM product snce your '01 Blazer, but yet you call eveything they make junk?

Even if it is, how do you propose these domestic manufacturers fix themselves? The cash these companies have will barely cover their operating costs for the next year. How are they expected to launch new product, improve quality, develop alternative fuel systems etc. without some help?

Roger
Why fix them? There plum weak north of there ear's. They have had years to get it right and failed. No reasons to give them our tax $$$ now

Life ain't fair, and neither is making car's.Do you see Honda or Toyota standing in line asking for a Government hand out.NO they make good autos in the U.S.A. They have it right and better quality cars.

I am tired of hearing Detroit crying over the milk they spilt.Then they want the Government with my tax $$$ to come cleane it up.If they want to fix it let them cowboy up and fix it themself or just let them lie there and bleed.

Hell let's all all go over to Wall Mart and buy some China made junk.
Or we can go to one of the big 3 car dealers and buy some U.S.A made junk.

PS I owen a Ford and a GMC.
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Old 10-30-2008, 08:01 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Air2Go View Post
"The cash these companies have will barely cover their operating costs for the next year. How are they expected to launch new product, improve quality, develop alternative fuel systems etc. without some help?"

Maybe in the same way they have accomplished all of those things during the boom era of the high profit-margin SUV...

which is to say that perhaps they won't.
I'm am not defending their past actions. But I could. They didn't force high profit-margin SUVs on us. That's what we wanted. They didn't invent the horsepower war and then build to it. We demanded it. Don't forget that Toyota, Nissan and to a lesser extent Honda were entering that segment too. Fuel prices shot up and the enconomy tanked relatively almost overnight. If gas was $1.50 a gallon and the Dow was at 11000 we wouldn't even be having this discussion. These companies can't just turn around in their skin. It takes years to develop new product and bring it to market. Sure they should have been looking ahead but they were focusing on what was keeping the bills paid.

If there companies fail, dozens of top managers will be out millions. Good, they deserve it. But the thousands that will be out billions don't and the country does not deserve to loose the manufacturing segment that made us number one in the world.

Roger
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Old 10-30-2008, 08:28 PM   #83
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Buick (junk)
Cadillac (you can get americans to buy them but thats it)
Chevrolet (no comment)
GMC (glorified Chevy)
Jason,
I couldn't agree with you less on your assessment of GM products. I have not personally owned any of these GM vehicles (not really a fan) but my family and the company I work for all run them. I used to drive 45k/year on a Lumina. All of them get ran over 200k miles. The have some issues but overall they hold up pretty well. This also goes for the Ford, Chrysler & Jeep products have all held up well. I think they all make quality cars.
Personally I drive a Honda Civic back and forth to work. If it wasn't for such a good - once in a lifetime deal on this car I would never own it. Granted it is a reliable car 95% of the time but it's like riding on a skateboard and the seats make my back ache on any trip over 30 minutes. There is a mechanic here locally who has a radio talk show every saturday morning. He comments that he has as many complaints about Toyota's as he does domestic cars.
As far as bailing out of GM - I don't think it's a good idea unless they actually have a plan to restructure. It would be a shame to see so many people loose their jobs - I really, really hate to see this and feel much empathy for those folks. GM is going to have to get leaner to survive and it will be a shame to see them break up Chrysler when they are building such nice cars. I would love to own a Charger/RT or a Ram pickup.

Steve
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Old 10-30-2008, 08:52 PM   #84
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Jason,
I couldn't agree with you less on your assessment of GM products. I have not personally owned any of these GM vehicles (not really a fan) but my family and the company I work for all run them. I used to drive 45k/year on a Lumina. All of them get ran over 200k miles. The have some issues but overall they hold up pretty well. This also goes for the Ford, Chrysler & Jeep products have all held up well. I think they all make quality cars.
Personally I drive a Honda Civic back and forth to work. If it wasn't for such a good - once in a lifetime deal on this car I would never own it. Granted it is a reliable car 95% of the time but it's like riding on a skateboard and the seats make my back ache on any trip over 30 minutes. There is a mechanic here locally who has a radio talk show every saturday morning. He comments that he has as many complaints about Toyota's as he does domestic cars.
As far as bailing out of GM - I don't think it's a good idea unless they actually have a plan to restructure. It would be a shame to see so many people loose their jobs - I really, really hate to see this and feel much empathy for those folks. GM is going to have to get leaner to survive and it will be a shame to see them break up Chrysler when they are building such nice cars. I would love to own a Charger/RT or a Ram pickup.

Steve
Not just talking about reliability here... look at how they are built... Plastic junk that doesn't even fit together right... or falls apart, moves, rattles... Not to say Toyota, Honda, Nissan aren't like that but they seem to fit together better... I have a friend with a 2 year old Suburban that has been in the shop 6 times,, nothing major but still a pain to have to take it in for stuff... my '01 4 runner has 150,000 miles Never a problem... I have replaced brakes and fluids, thats it.... Yes and timing built when the manual said to.

My 01 Blazer had a new rear end, front end, four wheel drive, Vacuum leak that took 8 months to find so the A/C would come on randomly... Wiper switch and trim falling off... luckily I had an extended warranty.. All within 50,000 miles...

My neighbor has a '97 blazer with nearly 500,000 miles on the same engine,, two Transmissions, and about every other part replaced on the motor but it's still running... For all he spent he could have bought a new car by now...(maybe)

Look the Point here is They shouldn't get a cheap loan or a bail out (which it looks like they wont') for bad businesses practices..

Can't believe they have the gaul to ask the American people for the money to by Chrysler... Unbelievable...


Their cars are getting better. But they carry a bad stigma.... The big 3 started building bad cars in the 70's and didn't stop till a few years ago...

Sure there are exceptions.. There's a few good ones, just like there are some bad ones out of Japan....

NO FREE MONEY FOR AUTO MAKERS TO BUY OTHER BRANDS>>>>
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