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Old 10-30-2008, 02:35 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Jim & Susan View Post
I have another question. If GM folds, why would I then have to pay $100 billion to their former employees in the form of pensions?

Jim
Well if you've got it then Jim, why not? Maybe it's so the old people could still eat and live and because their retirement was part of their earnings for work already rendered. It's not like they can go back and get the job either. I imagine it's something akin to the government guaranteeing your money will be available for you from your bank. ???

Anywho today's news from the Motor City state of Michigan is that the state unemployment fund is out of money.

Here's the explanation as to why,
"Each year, the first $9,000 you make brings a tax on your employer to pay unemployment benefits.
Nearly a quarter million Michigan companies pay into the fund and in a good year, it adds up to about $1.5 billion half dollars.
When a company’s layoffs exceed taxes paid they’re known as negative balance employers.
Right now, Michigan has 33,000 negative balance employers.
There will be a need for millions more if thousands of job cuts come from a possible General Motors Chrysler merger.
In order to re-pay the loans, the state will raise taxes on the negative balance employers, starting in January. It amounts to about $68 per employee.
The state will also raise unemployment taxes on businesses laying off the most employees to take care of the loan balance."

I am assuming the government isn't interested in the companies profits or the salaries of the CEOs but subsidies would be for the benefit of the impact on the population of the state.
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Old 10-30-2008, 07:07 AM   #58
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American vehicles?

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I'm not knocking their product and I don't care where they are made. Everytime you buy a Toyota, Nissan, Honda etc. you're putting another nail in the coffin. I don't care if its poor quality or if it costs too much - if you don't buy American and if you don't buy locally you are the problem. Suffer a little. It didn't hurt your Dad and it didn't hurt his.
Roger
Roger has hit points but I would like to add a little. My part time job is w/ a Pontiac/Buick/GMC dealer locally. I work in the parts department mainly but I shuffle cars or whatever is required. First, Pontiac G6s and G8s are made in Australia and shipped here. A bunch of the engines and transmissions for other GM items are made in Canada and Mexico. My Dodge truck was made in Mexico. Look at the window stickers on a new vehicle for that info. Other placards on the door jamb will tell you more.

Additionally, my new wheels for my Harley were made in Australia. All Harley leather is made in Carjackistan or somewhere. Toyota plants in this country employ thousands of people. Interestingly, Toyota makes the Pontiac Vibe. Other than some head gasket problems, we never see them in the service dept. other than the oil change specials. Way more w/ GM vehicles come in.

The point is that this is a world economy. Companies make a product as economically as they can and stuff is made overseas because they don't have to pay huge benefits. Buying American is a good plan but you can't do it 100%. Look in your shoes, shirts, coats. You shop for deals because you don't want to pay more--it simply costs more made in the US. I wish it were not so but it is.
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Old 10-30-2008, 07:17 AM   #59
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Roger has hit points but I would like to add a little. My part time job is w/ a Pontiac/Buick/GMC dealer locally. I work in the parts department mainly but I shuffle cars or whatever is required. First, Pontiac G6s and G8s are made in Australia and shipped here. A bunch of the engines and transmissions for other GM items are made in Canada and Mexico. My Dodge truck was made in Mexico. Look at the window stickers on a new vehicle for that info. Other placards on the door jamb will tell you more.

Additionally, my new wheels for my Harley were made in Australia. All Harley leather is made in Carjackistan or somewhere. Toyota plants in this country employ thousands of people. Interestingly, Toyota makes the Pontiac Vibe. Other than some head gasket problems, we never see them in the service dept. other than the oil change specials. Way more w/ GM vehicles come in.

The point is that this is a world economy. Companies make a product as economically as they can and stuff is made overseas because they don't have to pay huge benefits. Buying American is a good plan but you can't do it 100%. Look in your shoes, shirts, coats. You shop for deals because you don't want to pay more--it simply costs more made in the US. I wish it were not so but it is.
Larry, you hit several good points also, but some of the things you skip over is the foreign manufacturers in this country have an advantage, and that is most are not union shops, and therefore, they don't have to pay union benefits. It's the benefits that are killing the US auto makers. The other point I'd like to make is, no matter where the vehicle is assembled, or where the parts are made, the company that produces the vehicle, gets the net profits in their country of origin.... i.e., the profits for Toyota sales goes to Japan, etc.
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Old 10-30-2008, 07:20 AM   #60
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Well if you've got it then Jim, why not? Maybe it's so the old people could still eat and live and because their retirement was part of their earnings for work already rendered. ......
OK, so does this mean that GM as been underfunding their retirement program lo these many years? Using this same logic, can I get the taxpayers (wait, that's me!) to fund my 401k should I fall short in my senior years. I don't have a traditional, company funded, retiremant plan. Does that seem fair to everybody? After all, I just want what "they" have.

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Old 10-30-2008, 08:48 AM   #61
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Touchy subject, I one way or another I can relate to both sides of the arguement. But if we would at least try to buy American it would help. I avoid Wal Mart like the plague, I try to shop local, mom&pop businesses. But sometimes I go to WalMart and I often buy forigen made products, it is inevitable. The point is I make the effort. I will not buy a overseas auto. I know the big three have lots of forgien content, I don't like it but I think,i hope,that most of the profit and jobs stay in America where it belongs.
Also the constitution gaurantee's us the Right to life,liberty& the PURSUIT of happiness. Not money,not health benifits,not 401k's, not even unconsinable profits. That being said, go camping,it makes life fun and is kinda sorta pursuing happiness!
Have a great day and don't get an ulcer worring about the election, We are Americans ,we will live through what ever fool gets elected. Oh, please vote, that buys your right to bitch! Adios, John
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Old 10-30-2008, 09:06 AM   #62
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Anywho today's news from the Motor City state of Michigan is that the state unemployment fund is out of money.

Here's the explanation as to why,
We have some property in the UP of MI. Unlike the LP of MI the UP has really no economy to speak of less tourism. The Lansing funds all or most of the activities for the UP.

Here is the perception and this could be wrong, but I offer it at face value.

The UP is a total mess. Few up there work, even though they can....they make more on unemployment and gov benefits, even if they stub their toes than they can get working. My uncle has a resort up there and can barely find anyone to work....not that there is a lack of human resources, but that there is no one who wants to work.

Unless you work in the timber industry up there, it's about the only good paying job (relatively speaking).

So in my mind the UP is a major drag on Lansing who may need the funds to do pay for a lot of what may be coming down the pike.

Lansing should have let the UP become it's own state of Superior as they wanted. The anchor would have been cut and the folks up there would have had to figure it out rather than have their hands out.

How this relates here to this forum seems to be tow vehicles....whatever happens it's going to be an interesting ride.

I to avoid Wal-Mart as much as possible too. What is going to be interesting is the if one party gets into office, Wal-Mart is going to be in some hot water with their health care practices......but that could be a whole 'nuther thread alone.
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Old 10-30-2008, 10:13 AM   #63
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I know the big three have lots of forgien content, I don't like it but I think,i hope,that most of the profit and jobs stay in America where it belongs.
Adios, John

Thats if they made a profit... They aren't.....

I buy American made when I can.... Example

I bought a Dana Design backpack back in 2001 I still have it and use it.. It was built in Boisman Montana... Then K2 bought them and shipped all the manufacturing to Mexico... I won't buy a new one....


Choco sandles WERE built just down the road from us.. Now of to China, Won't buy them any more either....

Not so much becuase they are built out of country, but the quility control isn't there anymore..

We have 5 cars....
- '75 dodge 3/4 ton
- '89 Jaguar
- '90 Jeep Cherokee
- '01 4 Runner
- '08 Sequoia

I have had 2 chevy blazer's one an '01 traded for the '01 4 runner... They just didn't hold up... I buy for what I believe is quality.. IF it's made in the US great if not I will buy what is...

My kids toys,,,,, I won't buy them toys from Wally World any more, there just cheap plastic crap....

We have a local toy stores that i buy most of my kids toys from... Sure it's a little more $ sometimes,, And some of it is made in china, But it's made out of wood and will last....


I still don't think the government should bail them out... They could sell some of the other car companies they have bought...

Remember when they tried to buy ferrari in the '70's Ford got pissed when the deal fell through.... It's not like the Big 3 haven't bought up other companies.. Sell them.... Stay here... No sympathy from me.. Figure something else out... NO GOVERNMENT BAIL OUT>>>>>>
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Old 10-30-2008, 10:26 AM   #64
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OK, so does this mean that GM as been underfunding their retirement program lo these many years? Using this same logic, can I get the taxpayers (wait, that's me!) to fund my 401k should I fall short in my senior years. I don't have a traditional, company funded, retiremant plan. Does that seem fair to everybody? After all, I just want what "they" have.

Jim
YES! GM has been underfunding the retirement plans, and pushing it off to the future. I think that is some trouble across the board of economics. Instead of real assets paper projections stood in leu of counting eggs hatched.

When a person works 30 years or however many years and your benefits are building a retirement fund it should be there just as your uncashed check. It is payment owed to the employee for the hours worked. It is the company's liability and should not have to be the taxpayers or government's problem but you see the outcome and short of wringing the assets back from where they should not have gone or been expended or undoing imprudent decisions there is not much hope in the company making restitution or even a bankrupt government being able to pay back.

I think the issue and wider still from GM's woes is very complicated but my post was framed to interject a human face to your question and be food for thought. It may not seem like it but if you are paying in you really are amongst the ever decreasing number of the fortunate. Some attitudes of assistance need to be tempered with empathy. Many suffer through no fault of their own on either side. In a perfect world it would not be so.

I know everyone wants to find out, "Who did it?" But let's not let the hunt and the need to exact satisfaction interfere with what the eforts to help are trying to do. Eventually when enough systems fail it will trickle upward, it's just taking longer for some. If you are on the very top you may need to use those funds to shore up a fortress. But a collapse will effect everyone one way or another. But the milk of human kindness will remain a stable asset.
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Old 10-30-2008, 11:00 AM   #65
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Carol, you understand my issue is with the "system", not you, right?

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Old 10-30-2008, 11:35 AM   #66
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A common thought running thru this thread is the concept of a corporation being "American". Is there a citizenship test you have to take before buying stock? I am no stock broker, but can't anyone buy shares of GM or Ford or Chrysler? He who owns the stock gets the profits. Remember when Rupert Murdock the brit bought 20th Century Fox?
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Old 10-30-2008, 11:39 AM   #67
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Oh yes, thank you Jim. I was just about to post something along the same lines. My pontification was not directed solely at you either it was one of those impromptu news short interviews from the man on the street. It's difficult not to have some emotion and momentum for me and I was responding to a million other things I have heard and accumulated in my mind to the general public. And our situation is pointedly affected with this mess.

I agree a strong work ethic is a good thing and should be rewarded compensurately and not penalized. I hear you, the whole fix is thrown back on the tax payers and that's not fair. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out. When there is a large area of unemployment and not enough industry to support jobs, it's a crisis, both with economics and with morale.

Thanks for posting that. I too was afraid my tone might cause esculation and that really isn't anything I would want to do with my friends here on the forums.
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Old 10-30-2008, 12:02 PM   #68
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Gm & chryseler

GM and Chryseler are like two drunks standing on a corner holding each other up,Sooner or later they both are going to fall.
So the Government,the unions and the public should get over it,and stop wasting our tax $$$ trying to save companies that can not compete.Nothing that bad or that good lasts that long.
There are just to many American worker that do not want to do their jobs (Look at Government employees)all they want is a hand out from their employer if they can't get it there then they want it from the Government and that is us, the tax payers.We'er not here to make dollars.We're here to make sense.
Come on you REAL working Americans wake up, we are getting screwed by the people we elected,the Government, the unions,the banks,the credit card companies,the oil companies,(So save gas fart in a jar), and the list goes on.It time we start taking responability for our self and stop depending on others(like the Government) to take care of us.
Life aint fair and neither is cards.
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Old 10-30-2008, 12:41 PM   #69
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...obviously spoken from the standpoint of a real working person who thus far remains unscathed. Will that tune change if it it hits your home? I don't suppose you have some jobs you can export to Michigan to let us all get real too? Or should we just disappear now that the jobs have?

Throwing out random sentiment and prejudiced generalities and stereotypes that people are inherently lazy and don't pull themselves up by their boot straps (got boots?) is very grievious and harmful and that kind of dangerous thing seems to spread like wildfire... an even more bitter pill than loss of income and benefits and gainful employment and purpose. The point is thousands of people are finding themselves in a position they never thought would happen to them.

Where are our cheerleaders? Let's try to paint a better picture, hmm?
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Old 10-30-2008, 12:58 PM   #70
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Ok, I started this thread a little pissed off at GM and the other two... (well still am) The problem as I see it now is almost unfixable...

In some ways they need a bail out to save the rest of the country and workers.

But the don't deserve a bail out because they screwed up and screwed us.

So lets take that 15 B and divide it up among the big 3 employee's Not the CEO's or hire ups. the actuarial workers...

Then lets see how the Big three can sort it out on the own..

Well that won't work either, but it would serve them right....

Wonder if the Italian gov.. bailed out Ferrari when it was in trouble?

Did the British Gov. bail out Jaguar when it was in trouble?

Sure they didn't employee as many people but still....

I don't think they should get free money..... They need to sort out there finances and have a plan before they even get the loan....and it should be the going interest rate not some special rate. I don't get a special rate So why should they.....

The point is they Shouldn't be aloud to buy other car companies until they fix there own... NO MATTER WHAT>>>

Being rewarded for bad business practices in just not a good thing..
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