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Old 10-29-2008, 02:26 PM   #43
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I'm gonna be paying off my house as soon as I can, buy up a bunch of ammo for the guns and wait it all out...
HOUSE paid for,AIRSTREAM paid for,TOW VEHICLE paid for,GUNS paid for,AMMO paid for,GOLD paid for,Lots of CASH.DISASTER PLAN done.
LET'S ROLL
"In the good old days when we was in a fix we'd call on judge Colt and his jury of 6"
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Old 10-29-2008, 02:48 PM   #44
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HOUSE paid for,AIRSTREAM paid for,TOW VEHICLE paid for,GUNS paid for,AMMO paid for,GOLD paid for,Lots of CASH.DISASTER PLAN done.
LET'S ROLL
"In the good old days when we was in a fix we'd call on judge Colt and his jury of 6"
As the political ads say " I approve this plan"
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Old 10-29-2008, 04:12 PM   #45
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Didn't the big 3 saddle that off to the unions to manage. I thought the put a ton of money into the pensions, then left it to the unions to manage and grow.

I agree fully that it is a national security issue, as it would be for nearly any bellwether stock that manufactures essential machines. Back in WW2, there were no new cars for a number of years cause the car companies built tanks and such. In the global world we find ourselves in, it's a bit more complicated, but the undercurrents are the same.

To bad we don't have the same philosophy when it comes to domestic and renewable energy vs. foreign energy supplies which only make others wealthy and dangerous to us.
100,000,000,000 just for the "Pensions only" if just GM fails!
The government has an interest in making sure automakers survive because of huge pension plans that it would have to insure, and the huge number of jobs that could go away if one of the companies goes bankrupt.
Chrysler employs about 49,000 in the U.S. and has roughly 125,000 pensioners. GM has 177,000 U.S. workers and around 500,000 people receiving pensions.
For each auto manufacturing job, there are 7.5 jobs with parts makers and other companies, according to the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor. Chrysler alone accounts for 318,500 to 392,000 jobs, while GM and Ford account for 2 million each, the center said.
David Cole, the center's chairman, said the industry may need $15 billion to $20 billion in unrestricted federal aid to stay afloat long enough to outlast the economic downturn and take advantage of an auto sales resurgence.
"You're looking at a rather nominal amount compared to the cost of a failure," Cole said. "You have to look at that as a good investment, an old ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."
He estimated that it could cost the government more than $100 billion if GM or Ford go into bankruptcy from pension obligations and the loss of people paying income taxes and instead receiving government benefits.
Nate Bailey, spokesman for U.S. Rep. Joe Knollenberg, R-Mich., whose district includes Chrysler's Auburn Hills headquarters, said Knollenberg has been in touch with auto executives and the administration to "ensure the auto companies get everything that they need to protect jobs and move forward."
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Old 10-29-2008, 04:39 PM   #46
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Now, do you still think it's a good idea to buy a Toyota?
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Old 10-29-2008, 04:42 PM   #47
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"Oct 29th, 2008 | DETROIT -- If General Motors Corp. acquires Chrysler LLC, it will cost 25,000 to 35,000 jobs at the automakers, according to a Michigan consulting firm."
I am sure these numbers are accurate if not actually low. However these numbers still do not represent, nor are they close to a probable 1 in 6 lost manufacturing jobs should GM or the big three go bankrupt, thus making a strong case for the government to loan out funds to avoid a larger loss and/or a national security issue.

BTW, great info Toastie...
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Old 10-29-2008, 04:46 PM   #48
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100,000,000,000 just for the "Pensions only" if just GM fails!


The government has an interest in making sure automakers survive because of huge pension plans that it would have to insure, and the huge number of jobs that could go away if one of the companies goes bankrupt.
Chrysler employs about 49,000 in the U.S. and has roughly 125,000 pensioners. GM has 177,000 U.S. workers and around 500,000 people receiving pensions.
For each auto manufacturing job, there are 7.5 jobs with parts makers and other companies, according to the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor. Chrysler alone accounts for 318,500 to 392,000 jobs, while GM and Ford account for 2 million each, the center said.
David Cole, the center's chairman, said the industry may need $15 billion to $20 billion in unrestricted federal aid to stay afloat long enough to outlast the economic downturn and take advantage of an auto sales resurgence.
"You're looking at a rather nominal amount compared to the cost of a failure," Cole said. "You have to look at that as a good investment, an old ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."
He estimated that it could cost the government more than $100 billion if GM or Ford go into bankruptcy from pension obligations and the loss of people paying income taxes and instead receiving government benefits.
Nate Bailey, spokesman for U.S. Rep. Joe Knollenberg, R-Mich., whose district includes Chrysler's Auburn Hills headquarters, said Knollenberg has been in touch with auto executives and the administration to "ensure the auto companies get everything that they need to protect jobs and move forward."
Thank You!

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Now, do you still think it's a good idea to buy a Toyota?
Thank You!!!!

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I am sure these numbers are accurate if not actually low. However these numbers still do not represent, nor are they close to a probable 1 in 6 lost manufacturing jobs should GM or the big three go bankrupt, thus making a strong case for the government to loan out funds to avoid a larger loss and/or a national security issue.

BTW, great info Toastie...

.................and THANK YOU!!!!!
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Old 10-29-2008, 05:46 PM   #49
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Gm

Wisdom is realizing you're riding down the wrong trail....again.
GM,Ford and Chryseler are just BIG medical and retirement plans that try and sell cars on the side.They have to cowboy up or just lie there and bleed.

GM,Ford and Chryselers poor managment has been diggin for water under the outhouse with the unions for the past 60 years. This is the biggest reason they have problems today.The good lessons come hard and cost us tax payers dear.

If the near 1 million retirees from the big 3 would go out and buy a NEW car from one of the big 3 that would be the cowboy way to help.

Tell me what good it is to GM to spend the Government Loan to buy a looser like Chryseler? When you find yourself in a hole the first thing to do is stop diggin.

I guess the Government figures us tax payers will get use to hangin,if they let us hang long enough over the poor loans and bail out stuff.

GOD BLESS AMERICA
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Old 10-29-2008, 06:15 PM   #50
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"Goldman Sachs is on course to pay its top City bankers multi-million pound bonuses, despite asking the U.S. government for an emergency bail-out.

The struggling Wall Street bank has set aside 7bn for salaries and year-end bonuses this year, it emerged tonight.

The scale of the pay pool means the firm's 443 partners are on course to pocket an average Christmas bonus of over 3m.

The staff bonanza comfortably dwarfs the 6.1bn lifeline the American government is throwing to Goldman as part of its $700bn scheme to resuscitate the US financial industry.

It means that as Washington pours money into the bank, the cash will immediately be channelled into the bank accounts of Goldman's already well-heeled bankers."


Unfortunately, the business of bailouts is a slippery slope. As the government prepares to now throw cash at GM, might we all (since we are all effectively being made automakers), ask how things can be improved to avoid a future much like the present?
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Old 10-29-2008, 06:57 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie View Post
I am sure these numbers are accurate if not actually low. However these numbers still do not represent, nor are they close to a probable 1 in 6 lost manufacturing jobs should GM or the big three go bankrupt, thus making a strong case for the government to loan out funds to avoid a larger loss and/or a national security issue.

BTW, great info Toastie...
The 100,000,000,000 is what the goverment would have to pick up for the pensions only, the health care is what will pass to the U.A.W. in the year 2010, if GM file chapter 11 who know what will happen with that. India has 1 billion people, 250 million of them speak very good english, China has 1.2 billion people, we have over 350 million people in our country and about 80 million of those working, those country could suck every job out of this county. Warren Buffet is saying buy American.
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Old 10-29-2008, 07:32 PM   #52
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One day we'll all drive Toyotas, We'll buy them at Wal-Mart and when we go back for service and no one there speaks English we'll all wonder what in the h*** happened.

I'm not knocking their product and I don't care where they are made. Everytime you buy a Toyota, Nissan, Honda etc. you're putting another nail in the coffin. I don't care if its poor quality or if it costs too much - if you don't buy American and if you don't buy locally you are the problem. Suffer a little. It didn't hurt your Dad and it didn't hurt his.

Roger
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Old 10-29-2008, 08:51 PM   #53
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One day we'll all drive Toyotas, We'll buy them at Wal-Mart and when we go back for service and no one there speaks English we'll all wonder what in the h*** happened.

I'm not knocking their product and I don't care where they are made. Everytime you buy a Toyota, Nissan, Honda etc. you're putting another nail in the coffin. I don't care if its poor quality or if it costs too much - if you don't buy American and if you don't buy locally you are the problem. Suffer a little. It didn't hurt your Dad and it didn't hurt his.

Roger
Thanks, couldn't have said it better! John
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Old 10-29-2008, 09:00 PM   #54
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I have another question. If GM folds, why would I then have to pay $100 billion to their former employees in the form of pensions?

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Old 10-29-2008, 09:20 PM   #55
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Unfortunately, the business of bailouts is a slippery slope. As the government prepares to now throw cash at GM, might we all (since we are all effectively being made automakers), ask how things can be improved to avoid a future much like the present?
Of this, I would totally agree. Although it goes against every grain, a slight form of socialism is what may simply fix this short term with some longer term rules put in place.

For a moment, imagine that there is no United States, no land west of England. In the current climate, how does one in England sleep at night not having Jaguar, Land Rover, etc owned by and English company? That reality is called National Security. Fortunately there is a United States and one does not have to worry about National Security that much if you are a friend of the United States, because as one U.S. President once said:

"We did not choose to be the guardians at the gate, but there is no one else."

If you think in Russia or in China or at an OPEC meetig they are even having anywhere near these discussions.....

Do I think the Industrial Military Complex is warranted? Not really, but those who fail to heed history are doomed to repeat it. It's a double edged sword.

In the current world, there is a need for manufacturing facilities, yet less of a need similar to that of WW II, however, who in there right mind would let the manufacturing sector mostly evaporate, particularly, as Superpower?

A really great movie to see is "Why we fight". It puts a lot of this into perspective. Ike was right though.....as he clearly points out the slippery slopes we ride....
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Old 10-29-2008, 09:31 PM   #56
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....... Although it goes against every grain, a slight form of socialism is what may ........
Incredibly slippery slop. But, it's been going on for years. In the end, we are all going to end up like the countries of Western Europe, eh?
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