Value Comparison Scenario

[Bluto]

Need some input so I can understand the value or about what to offer on a new trailer.
There are 3 trailers, the same length, same options, same model. Only differences are the years when they were made. All are new and untitled sitting on a dealers lot today 1/8/10.
2008
2009
2010

I realize that the price on the 2010 is list minus a discount, lets say it's 22%.
What kind of discount should one ask for the older 2008 and 2009 models, since they have been on the lot for a while?
What would you ask for? How would you determine a fair price to offer the dealer? Since these are all new trailers the used trailer figures on sales sites don't apply so I'd like to determine a good price maybe by depreciation?? Not really sure..
Opinions are what I'm looking for, so please let me know.












2009 model. Then the 2008.

[Stefrobrts]

Wouldn't the NADA value for a used trailer give you a good starting point? Because even if it's technically 'new', it's still been sitting on the lot for 2 years out in the weather and I assume having people walking through it. And as soon as you buy it you get that full depreciation hit if you had to turn around and sell it. Plus you know it's been sitting unsold for two years so they probably want to move it.

[fmr.capt.evi]

Bluto, my advice is to make your best deal on the 2010.....because it's the NEWEST. In my experience, the longer they sit at the dealership, the more they are exposed to various forms of abuse and neglect, creating issues that may not be readily apparent. Since becoming an Airstream nut a few years ago, I've purchased 5 new ones: 3 out of the dealer's inventory, and 2 by ordering what I wanted from the factory. None of them were trouble-free, but I can tell you that, coincidently, the 2 that were ordered (meaning that they spent almost NO time "on the lot"), had FAR fewer issues, initially, and within the first year.

[2airishuman]

bluto...

this seems like a fabricated example, no offense.

i can't think of ANY model in the a/s line spanning 08-10 that is UNchanged...

classics? no

internationals? no

clouds? vs safari? no...

sports? maybe, i dunno.

b vans? no.

for example the TELEVISIONS in each aren't the same are they?

brakes are DIFFERENT for the classics,

some clouds/classics/ccds now have nevR lube hubs, self adjusting brakes and so on...

lots of subtle changes may be there under the skin.
__________

a dealer that still has an 08 or 09 on the lot, has got issues.

they OWN those trailers, and have been paying for them a long time,

they OWN the '10 too, but haven't paid much financing for it yet...

the a/s factory warranty MIGHT still exist, but the individual appliance warranties may not be easy to use.

tires old, batteries old, axles UN used, brake UN serviced, fridge sitting UN used, and so on...

did they buy inventory from some other closing dealer? are these repos from sales gone bad?
_______

dealers post prices...

what is the current asking price vs msrp for each?

what exactly do you WANT in a stream?

lots of threads on price/offer/msrp/discount and negotiating the deal...

but this is a truly unique thing if it's actually a real scenario.

cheers
2air'

[Janet H]

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

a dealer that still has an 08 or 09 on the lot, has got issues.

they OWN those trailers, and have been paying for them a long time,

they OWN the '10 too, but haven't paid much financing for it yet...

the a/s factory warranty MIGHT still exist, but the individual appliance warranties may not be easy to use.

tires old, batteries old, axles UN used, brake UN serviced, fridge sitting UN used, and so on...

did they buy inventory from some other closing dealer? are these repos from sales gone bad?


cheers
2air'

You might be able to take advantage of this... we looked at some similar trailers this fall at the AS dealer near Seattle. They had a new 2008 classic on the lot, new International and several others. They expressed substantial interest in dealing big time on the 2008s but when explored in greater detail, it started to look less attractive. Another issue to consider is financing (if you are going that way). Can you get a loan on a new 08 at new rig rates?

[Airslide]

This is an intersting thread. The Cadillac dealership next to ours still has 4 brand new 2007 escalades in stock!? The original MSRP was something in the mid 50's. These same trucks bring in around 20k at the auction. Im not even sure how someone could get financing on them. Ofcourse the factory has helped them with some serious trunk money to get them rolling but they still want in the 40's for them.

The problem I see for the new owner is some serious depreciation once you roll off the lot. How does that work for an 08 airstream? You would think its a similar situation but maybe less competition keeps the prices higher? not sure.

Vinnie

[Bluto]

Ok, the senario is basic in form to just to get a feel of what kind of discount one can expect on (older) new units that have been sitting on the dealer lots for a while that are untitled. I've been looking for a new Classic for some time now and am torn between the high price of a 2010 vs a 2008 or 2009. I have located all three years of a Classic 27' but not all at one dealer. Some dealers will just be right upfront and tell you that they expect the 2010 to bring in a price of 80% off the list price while others ask for the list price and won't budge much off of it till you start to walk away, hence the problem for me doing some of this leg work via the Internet.
I didn't want to muddy the water with a lot of details that might be minut in the scheme of things. The brake system from disc to drum is the bigest difference I would be concerned about between the model years mentioned. I've read pros and cons on that issue and don't know where that actually stands at this point. It really doesn't seem to be a major issue with anyone now.
Some of you brought up some food for thought on looking at the older new units that I have not really thought about. Thanks as it will be counted either on my "pros or cons" column when decision time catchs up with me.
In my quest I have found that the older(new) 27' units like the 08 with the disc brakes can be had for as little as $57,000 as compared to a 2010 for $68,000 after a discount on each. Do you guys think it's worth the difference to get the 08 and just replace tires and batteries if needed?
Am I missing something in the way I'm thinking? Wear and tear woud be a factor too for sure, but it would be less than buying a used unit that sombody took all over the US for 2 years, right?
You can see where I'm headed with my thinking, but I want opposing view points to make sure I'm going in the right direction with this. Where are the guys with the law degrees when you need an opposing view? Haha.
The dealers seem to hold all the cards and I don't want to feel like a sheep that is in line to get fleeced. I need to look at this from all angles. With your help of course.

[Bluto]

2Air,
You brought up some good points that I need to consider, like fridge, axles, etc. I wonder if sitting unused for long periods like that really hurts them? I read about the rubber in the axles giong bad over time. I guess you are saying it will have a reduced life of 2-3 years compared to a brand new unit. Warranty issues are another thing I need to look at.
Airslide, I haven't checked into any potential problem with financing an older new unit. Now I will.

[Stefrobrts]

Originally Posted by Bluto

Wear and tear woud be a factor too for sure, but it would be less than buying a used unit that sombody took all over the US for 2 years, right?

Personally, I'd rather have a well cared for used unit, because they will have worked out the bugs. And from what I've read, some of those new units can have quite a few bugs.

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by Stefrobrts

Personally, I'd rather have a well cared for used unit, because they will have worked out the bugs. And from what I've read, some of those new units can have quite a few bugs.

Another vote for good used... let someone else take the depreciation hit. I spent the better part of the first two Seasons finding and removing the factory "bugs", ie crappie build issues.

Our "new" only sat on the lot about 8 months but had several, walk-thru issues, including damaged slides on the pantry, broken latches on four cabinet doors and damaged batteries from being left plugged in without attention.

Whatever you decide...take the time to go over it with a very fine Airstream comb.

Good luck..

[crispyboy]

Personally I think I would get the best deal on the oldest one because $11,000 could buy a lot of axles, appliances and disk brake upgrades if you really wanted them. I would look closely for leaks and corrosion the rest of the "bugs" seem like they could easily be fixed.
See if you can negotiate in the warranty periods for the trailer and appliances starting on the day you purchase the trailer.

[Aage]

Instead of trying to calculate what a "new" old (not a 2010) unit that has sat on a dealer's lot is worth, just look at what used ones of the same year are selling for.

To me, the actual value of the "new" one from 2007, 2008, or even 2009 should definitely NOT exceed those prices, for the simple reasons that TTs don't have odometers, and therefore the only thing differentiating "new" (i.e. has sat on the delaer's lot since shipped from the factory) and used is the actual condition of the unit.

I see lots of 2007s and up for sale on various sites, why not just go by that? The dealer that thinks you will pay more than the used market for one that he has grown emotionally attached to on his lot is dreaming anyways, IMHO.

As 2air pointed out, more bad is likely to happen from sitting on the lot than from a loving owner's use, no matter how far he drags it...

[azflycaster]

What happens if you buy a "new" two year old unit and something happens to it. If you were pulling out of the dealer and a semi runs into the side of it. How will your insurance company determine the value. They will see it as a two year old trailer and pay accordingly.

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by Bluto

Ok, the senario is basic in form to just to get a feel of what kind of discount one can expect on (older) new units that have been sitting on the dealer lots for a while that are untitled. I've been looking for a new Classic for some time now and am torn between the high price of a 2010 vs a 2008 or 2009. I have located all three years of a Classic 27' but not all at one dealer...

ok better info bluto, and that is much more realistic.

buying and pricing is a contact sport so it pays to come prepared.

here's a thread that may be useful, i do not wanna type this list again so see post #11...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f349...-se-20214.html
____________

VALUE and PRICING aren't the same thing, but i do understand your goal here...

purchasing the most trailer for the least money and without stepping in a big pile of doo...
____________

here's another example to drive home a point...

3 trailers, all EXACTLY the same (year, model, accessories, color, specs) on 3 DIFFERENT dealer lots...

1. is within 100 miles of home
2. is 1000 miles from home
3. is 2000 miles from home

miles are just a loose condition but 3 identical on 3 dealer lots is very common in real life.

msrp is the SAME for each unit,

but when contacted by the customer these 3 units VARY in 'but it now' price by over 10,000$.

which one do YOU buy and why?

or which dealer do you haggle with?

and WHO will be your service/warranty provider?

think about it.
_______________

while online shopping and websites, our ever shrinking world and ONE currency in the usa...

suggests ALL 3 should be available for the same $...

they often are not.

and depending on model, dealer, time of year and demand, these clones WILL bring 1000s of $$ more/less for each dealer.

and some dealers will 'deal' while others don't budge on their best price offers.
______________

you really need to consider the list of issues in post #11 in the link above.
______________

now back to YOUR scenario.

production DATE for each unit matters...

a "late 08" may actually be identical to an "early 09"...

while 2 units EXACTLY the same year may b very different EARLY vs LATE in the year in terms of FEATURES or SPECS.

and a 'early 08' is a LOT older trailer than a 'late 09', you do understand that, right?

the issues of financing and insuring are real and important.

it's easy to get upsideDOWN on a loan even with brand NEW unit, IF the down payment is too low (5 % for example)

otoh if a LARGE down payment is included (30% for example) a bank is much more likely to loan at a FAVORABLE rate,

even on an older UNtitled unit.

on the insurance side, progressive sells FULL REPLACEMENT policies (not the same as full value) on new units to the FIRST buyer...

typically this coverage is for the first 4-5 years of life, costs a bit more and may NOT apply to 3 year old 'new' unit on the lot...

so do your homework, because the combination of a SMALL down payment and minimal insurance coverage is risky risky.
_______________

the a/s factory warranty should be 2 years on ANY of the 3 UNtitled units, and the appliances will be covered by a/s,

but try using a dometic or atwood vendor that isn't an a/s dealer for a 3 year old gizmo that is 'new' ???
_______________

your example/3 units on different lots have a HUGE variable unrelated to age, and that is DEALER PREP.

some do a great job and FIX stuff even to better than factory specs, others just wash'em and sell'em.

a/s corp REALLY does rely on the dealer for final fit/finish/fix/shakedown issues/leaks/loose bits, and so on.
______________

then there is the issue of negotiating SIGHT UNSEEN for these units.

real example, a member here negotiated with a very reliable/honest dealer for an 07? right after the 08s appeared.

after driving 1000 miles to pic it up, the buyer saw some minor things (like corrosion) on the unit and did NOT want it.

luckily the dealer had a similar/newer unit WITHOUT these issues and was willing to deal on THAT trailer...

so the customer was happy but left with a DIFFERENT unit than they originally expected to buy.
____________

my needs and use would make the 08/09s MORE valuable because of the disc brakes...

i really really like them, have had zero issues in 5 years and 70k miles towing and minimal maintenance cost.

so the '10 withOUT discs would be discounted in my negotiations,

and i would be factoring IN the cost of a trip to ADD discs for a new unit.
____________

one last issue to consider is HOW LONG U WILL KEEP this TRAILER?

5-10 years from now the resale/trade price difference will be less of an issue than IF u end up trading next year.

i ordered factory NEW near the END of the production year in 05...

the trailer had features that were part of the 06s (a good thing), avoided a NEW YEAR price increase of 8,000$ (also a good thing)...

but within 3 months of ownership the 06s were out and my unit was OLD already.

but the year old titled issue means NOTHING, if this trailer is kept as long as the last one (24+ years)...

hope some of this is helpful and best of luck!

cheers
2air'

[wheel interested]

On the newer models besides no disc brakes they also have stopped covering the lounge and dinette bases with padding and ultraleather and opted for a non-furniture quality wood front and base. Try to locate pictures. In my opinion the same fabric bases make the lounge appear more like a couch with a sleeker upgraded look and the contoured bases feel better against the back of your legs than the cushions on plain wooden boxes.

If you intend to move your Airstream, than miles of wear and tear seem to have diminished negative impact once the rock guard gets rocked and the sawdust shakes loose (beyond routine maintainence of tires and wheels and running gear etc.) In fact there appear to be more dents and scratches in the models that "stay home" than appear on the models of owners who regularly take their Airstreams with them.

The worst that could happen buying older is to trade it in and get most of what you paid for it in return but buying new and changing units should you decide to will cost dearly in depreciation even just off the lot. We have had 4 new Airstreams, and another gently used Airstream and another used unit to be bought in the works. Going backwards if you know what you are looking for and why may not be the less advantageous. I would go for the quality and condition of an individual unit and save money and frustration and not buy new again.

[ROBERT CROSS]

The operative word's being...quality,condition, save, frustation, and not buy new again.

[Bluto]

Bunch of great info from all of you. It really is nice to have so many people to count on to talk thru all this stuff. You mentioned things I completely missed. Now I feel I'll make an informed decision and get the most for my money. It's been years since I purchase an A/S and I think I'm close to getting the second one.
Thanks again!

[Gene]

Those dealers that have 2 or more year old "new" trailers have paid a lot of interest on their financing and have not been willing to cut prices to cut losses for far too long. This says to me they may have poor business practices. They may be very difficult to deal with. And at the least new tires and batteries should be included in the deal.

I'd look for a used unit. New ones are a crap shoot just like used ones are.

Gene