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Garfield · 10-10-2007, 11:07 AM

Hi All!

I found a dealer with a 2001 Safari SS for sale and is asking $30,000 (CAD). The trailer is in excellent condition and the dealer is prepared to put new tires on and generally spiffy it up. Considering they're selling new 2008 Safaris (Base model) for about $50,000 (asking), the $30K asking price might be reasonable.

But the NADA value for the 2001 with the same options is $18,000 (Average Retail) which is much lower. It leaves me wondering about the NADA values, have they not caught up with the marketplace or is the dealer just taking advantage of the market place?

Opinions welcome!

Tx,
Gary

Tim A. · 10-10-2007, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garfield

It leaves me wondering about the NADA values, have they not caught up with the marketplace or is the dealer just taking advantage of the market place?

As a dealer, he probably should be taking advantage of the marketplace. To determine if he is above true market value, you would need to find some comparison prices ("comparables" in the housing market). About a month ago in an RV park, we were approached by some people who had purchased a used 2002 19' Bambi like ours. They were a little concerned that they had overpaid, but they had spent months trying to find a used 19' Bambi, so bought what they finally found. Did they overpay? Not if they are satisfied. We all know you can get another brand of trailer at a lower price than a comparable Airstream, but there are those of us who would rather have the Airstream.

KANEHILL · 10-10-2007, 12:08 PM

I have found the same about the NADA and the market. If I could find a good used AS for NADA price I would feel like I really got a bargain!

bobfowler · 10-10-2007, 12:13 PM

"Book value" is really just a guide, unfortunately, it's taken as Gospel far too often. What kills me is how fast new trailers depreciate according to "the book". We investigated trading out 07 Basecamp for a 20' 07 Safari. 9 months of ownership and the trade-in "book value" was less than half of the original selling price. The used retail price was just about the same as the base model was when new. I had hoped that the dealer would have been willing to work out more favorable trade in terms to keep us as a customer, but that didn't happen (they only offered us book wholesale ($13K)), so we went elsewhere and bought a vintage unit and kept our Basecamp as well.

For my vintage unit, I paid well under half of what I would have lost trading in the Basecamp for a new rig. I'm well aware that I paid too much for my vintage unit (condition wasn't even close to the way it was represented), but it's the size and model we wanted so it's water under the bridge. We're well on our way to making it the trailer we want.

I most likely won't buy a new unit in the future. There are so many good deals on used units available, it doesn't make much sense for us to buy new.

RIstream'n · 10-10-2007, 12:37 PM

Let me draw a comparison to the auto business. NADA, KBB, EDMUNDS etc are good guides. But they are just that, guides. In the car bussiness you can enter the same car in the same condition on these 3 sites and get 3 different values, why? If they can't agree how can we agree with them? Here's the biggest question, where do they draw their info from? We sell 2-300 preowned vehicles per month and none of these sources solicit us for sale reports and most registry info is now closed off due to privacy issues so how do they come up with these figures. It's my thought that they use a mathmatical formula and that's not too accurate. Close but not accurate. We see cars doing over book, under book and at book. Why not everything at book? Because the market dictates what a car, house, RV or anything else is worth not a book. When a book starts writing checks then they are setting the market. The statement from a previous post has it exactly right. There's market value then there's "true market value". True market value takes all conditions into account like color, availablity, condition, title history, smoker non smoker, pet odor, DEMAND etc. OK OK I'm getting down from the soapbox. Just don't be angry at the dealer for wanting to sell a high in demand product for true market value. Afterall if someone is willing to pay up why should he sell it short to someone else? If you like the AS and it makes sense to you based everything else you've looked at then negotiate in good faith and buy it. Then start enjoying it.

Brian

pilgrim · 10-10-2007, 12:52 PM

BUT, you've got to find the used A/S that you're looking for! We've looked for months and haven't found anything close to what we're looking for. There seem to be a lot of smaller units available and several that are much larger than what we want but NOTHING in our size range. So, if one finds the size they're looking for, it is probably worth whatever someone is asking. It's always Supply and Demand! It looks like we'll be forced to buy new since it'll be the only way to get the size we're looking for.

To bobfowler: there are many comments on various postings that are a part of the owner's page BUT none bring a smile to my face as much as your "Slinky" comment. I've shared it with my co workers over and over and we all smile everytime I read it.

Garfield · 10-10-2007, 04:31 PM

Thanks everyone for the considered and quick replies!

Being "new" to Airstreams, I'm scrambling trying to get a handle on everything about them since good used ones that meet our particular requirements are not readily available. IMO new Airstreams are rediculously expensive and out of justification in our financial situation. But used ones might be justifyable IF they hold their value reasonably and maintenance doesn't kill me.

But the used market is so small there's no knowing what's "fair" in "fair market value". When folks are prepared to drive across the continent to buy a used Airstream of their desire, that sends up a red flag to me that the market is devoid of balance (kind of like the current stock market is to the brokers that have been in the business long enough!)

Anyway, at first blush the dealers asking price appears to be somewhat more realistic than the NADA value. Of course what we're actually prepared to pay for one is another matter. Fortunately I'm quite prepared to walk because there's no shortage of excellent (non A/S) alternatives - in fact there's an embarrassment of choices when it comes to the RV market these days.

Cheers!
Gary

bobfowler · 10-10-2007, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pilgrim

<snip>To bobfowler: there are many comments on various postings that are a part of the owner's page BUT none bring a smile to my face as much as your "Slinky" comment. I've shared it with my co workers over and over and we all smile everytime I read it.

Some people aim to please, I shoot to kill!

jkcru · 10-10-2007, 07:26 PM

It's the same old story, wholesale Blue Book for your trade, top price for what they are selling.

RIstream'n · 10-10-2007, 08:02 PM

Well jkcru the quick, sure money isn't always the most. If you want the long dollar then you have to advertise,sacrafice your weekends and deal with all the aggravation of selling it yourself retail. Otherwise a dealer will pay you wholesale money now. A dealer shouldn't be expected to pay more than wholesale. What would then be in it for them?

wingfoot321 · 10-10-2007, 08:04 PM

I think the nada or kelly is primarily a mathematical calculation and not much more. However said, I looked at quite a few units & prices before we bought and I remember coming to one overall conclusion.

At 5-6 years age, airstreams were selling for about 50% of new prices.

wingfoot321 · 10-10-2007, 08:11 PM

I think the nada or kelly is primarily a mathematical calculation and not much more. However said, I looked at quite a few units & prices before we bought and I remember coming to one overall conclusion.

At 5-6 years age, airstreams were selling for about 50% of new prices. This may have changed a little bit upward because airstreams are more in demand than say 5-10 years ago. Size may change somewhat due to greater demand on the smaller units. Minimal use may also change somewhat.

But, if a new unit is $50,000 manuf list and sells for say 85-90% of that number, then my first conclusion is that $30,000 for a 6 year old unit is too high.

When I bought my unit, I paid nada plus improvements to the trailer. For example, new flooring, new upholstery, stripped & recoated exterior, new gas bottles, new bottle cover, etc. They had spent $5000 bringing her back up to snuff and I gave them 2/3 of that.

Mine was 16 years old so newer units might be somewhat different calculations.

If I were you, I would look in Florida, Texas (retirement states) and figure out how to get info from the various WBCCI units. Just went to our election rally and the posting board had 3-4 units that looked interesting. They were older than you are looking at but, much less money.

Best deals probably come from the local units, airstream parks, etc.

peegreen · 10-10-2007, 08:54 PM

When we had the fire, the insuarance company wanted to give us the blue book value which was 50% of the final settlement. Like everything else, when purchasing we want to buy low at the absolute minimum price, but if we were selling the same item, we want to get the best maximum price.

roy sedgwick · 10-10-2007, 10:15 PM

back when i was in the car buis, 20 some years ago ( wow i'm old ) the black book , which was the wholsesale bible, values were derived from the auctions the nada book was used to as a reference in resale, and pumping the bank for a higher loan value, trying to "get the customer done" bottom line, as aluded to before, books don't buy or sell anything !

RIstream'n · 10-11-2007, 06:45 AM

Amen peegreen & roy!!!!

Brad Hunt · 10-11-2007, 06:58 AM

Hi Garfield: I went throught the same thing. I discovered AS sell above book and that dealers will pay more than book to get them. The exception may be the Base Camp model which is not as desireable. My experience is that there is a lot of play in dealer asking price and AS hold their value very well and at some point start to increase in value or at least level off. If you want it you won't know the dealers bottom line till you counter his ask price.

I don't buy into the BS that says its worth it if you'll pay it nonsense. When I buy used, the question to me is if I buy it can I sell it for more? or reasonably the same amount? I bought new only because I wanted what I wanted and I intended to keep it till I'm too old to go out anymore.

Silvertwinkie · 10-11-2007, 07:03 AM

I use NADA as a guide, not the law. I do feel that the dealer you are looking at is rather high though IMHO.

HiHoAgRV · 10-11-2007, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie

I use NADA as a guide, not the law.

Some insurance companies are not even using them for a guide anymore. Our SOB got totaled and they offered 1/3 of KBB and NADA stating they do their own local market pricing studies

Luckly the dealer helped me show them the light

and they got tired of me calling for updates on their efforts to locate a unit for me at the price they quoted

Silvertwinkie · 10-11-2007, 07:35 AM

I agree, ins companies are notorious for finding every single way to pay the least they can. This is well documented on this form many times over.

Typically when you get the factory and dealer in the mix, the ins companies do tend to cave a bit because there is fair market value and there is realistic fair market value which takes more than NADA for vintage and even non vintage units. This is also true for damage repair that is covered by insurance. I seem to recall one owner on this forum look to collect on his policy for a rolled or badly damaged Airstream (non vintage). It went back and forth, until I believe the owner got a detailed repair report from Jackson Center and I think that start to break the log jam.

In the end, an Airstream is a vehicle, might not be a car, but insurance folks tend to treat them nearly the same and most haven't a clue when a boat or RV they insure needs a claim without prodding from the insured and other supports. There are exceptions to this comment, but honetly IMHO it's more the exception than the norm unfortunately.

Garfield · 10-11-2007, 11:21 AM

Thanks everyone for the continuing comments.

I've been researching new and used prices for Airstreams from both dealers and private sales in the USA and it appears that most prices seem to be "in tune" with each other as you might expect; used prices are heavily depreciated the first 5 years - up to 40%. Canadian dealers prices seem to be in line with this marketplace from what I can tell.

Interestingly, the dealer pointed out that Thor has normalized Canadian and USA prices so there should be no difference as the dollars are essentially at par. The pricing I'm being quoted bears that out. For us Canadians it's nice not to be gouged as is so often the case. (for example Nikon Canada's prices are a good 10%-15% higher than Nikon USA which is very aggravating.)

Anyway, I'm beginning to think the NADA values are based on original retail and depreciated by some type of forumla as they do not reflect the dramatic price increases over the past 5 years.

It seems to be that the limited availablity of newer units less than 10 years old and the recent large price increases have helped support the appearance of used Airstreams providing lasting value, but frankly I'm not convinced that will necessarily be the case going forward. It will be interesting to see...

Gary