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Old 07-07-2012, 08:34 AM   #43
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Yes! - if of course I had that kind of money to buy new.

However, I would pick it up at the factory and I would camp in it and drive all around Ohio to get all the bugs out first.

Keep in mind that AS installs things they don't make half the stuff that goes in the trailer!

Next is workmanship - this is not a to spec assembly line process with fancy machines that build cars - it is PEOPLE! people make mistakes, economy sucks, management has gone down hill as our generations change. Values are different - we have grown to want more in less time -this is our generations fault - so we try to produce things that fast too - and the whole life process is now a mess.

Someone was saying Airstream should learn from Fantastic Vent service. Remember one thing - FV - does not buy into insurance warranty policies to replace parts. They have found it easier and more economical to just send out replacement parts to keep their customers happy - and it gains more business by doing so.
However that is the type of product that they can do that with. It is components that are easily changed out by a handy customer.

How people expect a fridge or microwave, or furnace or even tanks to be repaired is a bit silly thinking.

Due diligence folks - Stay with the product and give it a really good review - not being excited and then playing with your toy and not notice half of the stuff does not work by the time you get home. PLAN to stay at the factory or wherever you are picking it up from. Its a camper - so CAMP in it and work it hard don't just admire it.

I have just as many issues in my 2005 as I would buying a new one. Things are never perfect - especially when it comes to mechanical, electrical and plumbing. When you buy used you have a different set of issues - most are unknown without back ground. Wear and tear plays into lots of things that can go wrong - those who take back roads and don't speed - have less issues that those of us who drive the crap out of our airstreams on the interstates, or who over hitch our babies with stiffer than stiff suspensions TV's...it all adds up.

Things come loose, things break and things wear.

As for cutting and workmanship inside the trailers - not overly impressed but again they are people and the days of pride of workmanship instilled through the head company are far and few.

We don't live in a perfect world! and we never get what we pay for - that is our life today. So you either take the precautions and do that hard work to get your purchase exactly they way you want it - but going through the hassles.
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Old 07-07-2012, 08:56 AM   #44
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We don't live in a perfect world! and we never get what we pay for - that is our life today.
Hypothetical question for you:
Q: When you get shortchanged at the cash register - you pay with a $20 and they give you back change based on a $10 - do you simply smile and walk out of the store? Or, do you complain and ask for the proper change?

It's a simple, and yet serious question which underlies this whole quality question. I'd like to see how that is answered by the people who insist no one should complain, and no one should expect to get their money's worth.

Some of these "stop complaining and take what you get" posts floor me. And that's not easy. I can't think of anywhere, under any circumstances I have heard so many people advise so many others to "take a beating and shut up."

I can't even think of an economic principle where customers are supposed to be happy being cheated out of value for value. I've never heard of such an idea.
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Old 07-07-2012, 09:07 AM   #45
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I don't think I was implying that "don't complain" concept at all - you get what you pay for but if you are not happy then get it fixed - but to whine and moan thinking you will get perfect to begin with is just simply unrealistic.
As for airstream - I would buy them simply because of the design and towability - there is nothing that compares to towing a properly hitched Airstream.

As for your cashier question - put it this way. If and that is a big IF I was paying attention then yes - I would ask for my correct change.

And that is what I am getting at here - life is busy too fast, too much, and not enough commitment to making things work, or finding solutions. And customer service is at the bottom of this heap.

Look at the parents of the kids today - two jobs, but with all the toys, bells and whistles. Kids are learning what? Electronics become out of date within a year it seems - we are living in a disposable world. Things are not made to last like they used to. And kids interaction with people today - come on - text/facebook/social media - they have lost touch with the human way of communicating and it is coming out in the service - heck they don't even have to calculate their change it is all done for them - and give them extra money and it freaks them out cause the computer register was not programmed for that.

It is all what you can live with and what you can not live without!
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Old 07-07-2012, 09:13 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redwoodguy View Post
Hypothetical question for you:
Q: When you get shortchanged at the cash register - you pay with a $20 and they give you back change based on a $10 - do you simply smile and walk out of the store? Or, do you complain and ask for the proper change?

It's a simple, and yet serious question which underlies this whole quality question. I'd like to see how that is answered by the people who insist no one should complain, and no one should expect to get their money's worth.

Some of these "stop complaining and take what you get" posts floor me. And that's not easy. I can't think of anywhere, under any circumstances I have heard so many people advise so many others to "take a beating and shut up."

I can't even think of an economic principle where customers are supposed to be happy being cheated out of value for value. I've never heard of such an idea.
X2!!!

It's not about...."would you buy a new Airstream".
It's about the Airstream you JUST bought.
Does it match the price point you had to pay?
It didn't for me 8 years ago and it appears it still doesn't.

Believe me, I do not HATE Airstream trailers, I hate the way they are being made.

A "bitcher".

I prefer....curmudgeon.



A curmudgeon's reputation for malevolence is undeserved. They're neither warped nor evil at heart. They don't hate mankind, just mankind's absurdities. They're just as sensitive and soft-hearted as the next guy, but they hide their vulnerability beneath a crust of misanthropy. They ease the pain by turning hurt into humor. . . . . . They attack maudlinism because it devalues genuine sentiment. . . . . . Nature, having failed to equip them with a servicable denial mechanism, has endowed them with astute perception and sly wit.
Curmudgeons are mockers and debunkers whose bitterness is a symptom rather than a disease. They can't compromise their standards and can't manage the suspension of disbelief necessary for feigned cheerfulness. Their awareness is a curse.
Perhaps curmudgeons have gotten a bad rap in the same way that the messenger is blamed for the message: They have the temerity to comment on the human condition without apology. They not only refuse to applaud mediocrity, they howl it down with morose glee. Their versions of the truth unsettle us, and we hold it against them, even though they soften it with humor.
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Bob
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Old 07-07-2012, 09:32 AM   #47
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Bob - do you really think the airstream today is being made any differently to that of when they were made in the 60's or 70' or 80's - different material different suppliers.

I have seen the same extra rivets and stuff behind the walls of a 60/70/80 to my 2000, the same imperfect matching of material, sticky doors, loose hinges, missed leaks, and issues with appliances.

The point is an airstream is simply more expensive because it IS an airstream. For the ease of towing, the iconic factor and the style is the dollar value we are paying for. The sob's are decked out pretty cool but are box anchors to tow. They don't last and they rot in seconds. But it seems some people out there just see 20' trailer to trailer but the difference in price is astronomical.

It is all relevant really.

We can thank china and other international companies as well as ourselves for wanting more for less - as we are now having to make our products with the subpar materials being used.

In like fashion to the change over from wood to plastic 60's to the 70's my personal opinion was YUCK - but that plastic stuff when it first came out lasted with NO maintenance and that is what you paid for "time saved" and it has escalated in our whole way of thinking. To make more time for family we pay more and to pay more we work more thus the end result has certainly backfired.

Quality assurance is not cheap to administer. Warranty programs are astronomical, and you have to pay people to do the jobs. That in itself is a huge issue. What poor person who gets paid 10.00 bucks an hour is going to send an airstream back to the line over a tiny oversight and hold up 1000's of dollars - fear of loosing ones job baby is a big factor in the quality of workmanship these days. No one is rocking the boat in today's economy. And that attitude is that if someone can afford an airstream then they can take their own time to fix the little oversights.

It's not right but it is what it is. So we sit back and enjoy or we complain our choice.
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Old 07-07-2012, 09:41 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by GT1963 View Post
I don't think I was implying that "don't complain" concept at all - you get what you pay for but if you are not happy then get it fixed - but to whine and moan thinking you will get perfect to begin with is just simply unrealistic.
As for airstream - I would buy them simply because of the design and towability - there is nothing that compares to towing a properly hitched Airstream.

As for your cashier question - put it this way. If and that is a big IF I was paying attention then yes - I would ask for my correct change.

And that is what I am getting at here - life is busy too fast, too much, and not enough commitment to making things work, or finding solutions. And customer service is at the bottom of this heap.

It is all what you can live with and what you can not live without!
Thanks for taking on the question. I do not think people such as myself are "whining and moaning." We are sharing our LOSS, and helping each other find ways to "get it fixed." Suppose I never read about all these GYM failures from the "whiners and moaners" who have had so many problems? Then I would have to go through the same experience as they did with blown tires before learning they were bad tires. Instead, I read their "whining and moaning" of the blown tires and damaged trailers, and instead of waiting for my own blowouts and dangers, I order new tires (yesterday) and put them on before having the trouble. That is the reason people are sharing their quality problems. To help others, who in turn share with them. Is that really anything at all to do with "expecting perfection?"

I am paying $820 hard earned dollars out of my pocket to replace tires on a brand new trailer. That hardly falls in the category of "expecting perfection." No, I am not expecting perfection, but far, far short of perfection there is a certain minimum standard that anyone can, and should expect when laying out $80,000 for a trailer. For a start, it OUGHT NOT LEAK. That has nothing to do with perfection, that is a "basic core competency." If you are in the trailer business, and you can not make a trailer that doesn't leak like a sieve, you have no business charging $80,000 for it. None.

Perfection? You have to be kidding me. A new AS is so many miles and worlds from perfection that such a word need not even be introduced to the discussion. Perfection? Bull! People are just trying to crawl their way to "working." Perfection is not even a dream for new buyers. They want a dry trailer, with electricity and air conditioning and heat, that isn't riding on exploding tires. You think asking for electricity to work is demanding perfection? You think asking for the air conditioner to work is asking for perfection? You think asking for a set of tires that will go 5,000 miles safely is someone asking for perfection? Yikes, what sort of standards are you all operating on?

I specifically asked about being "short changed" because that is exactly the feeling I have after paying for a new trailer. I paid the money and got much less than full value for it. Now, I can share information with others on how to fix what should never have been broken in the first place. Perfection is s distant vision that doesn't involve me current TT I am afraid.
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Old 07-07-2012, 09:41 AM   #49
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I agree with redwoodguy. You can say it's the people. But where has the pride in workmanship gone?
Oh! I know. The same place that dress codes, good customer service and many other things that "Made in America" use to stand for. Out the window.
I mean; just the simple things like cleaning out the scraps left from the building process, checking all the systems in the trailer for proper operation prior to shipment. These are signs that the quality and cleanliness of the product are not the high priority. It's the bottom line.
I don't think Wally would like what he would see here. I believe he would take it personal and take action. But those were the days. The days when a man stood by his word and made sure the customer was happy.
Today; with everything managed by committee and boards, there is no accountability.
You can say; A$'s are "hand made" but so is every travel trailer and motorhome. Sure, it is shiny aluminum with supposed aircraft design features. But it still has the same problems today that my 38 year old Argosy had.
If Boeing built airplanes like A$ builds trailers. There would be a few planes that fly really well. But there would also be planes and bodies everywhere. And we would be flying in propeller powered airplanes. Not twin engine jets.
I believe the limited market and the high startup costs are the only reason that there is not a not a valid competitor. But with more "baby boomers" showing up everyday. With money to spend. We could be looking at another situation like the auto industry in the '70's.
Remember when Toyota and Datsun were considered to be just "cheap throwaway cars"? I think A$ is where GM and the rest were in the '70's.
But don't hold your breathe for a government bailout.
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Old 07-07-2012, 09:56 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by GT1963 View Post

And that attitude is that if someone can afford an airstream then they can take their own time to fix the little oversights.

It's not right but it is what it is. So we sit back and enjoy or we complain our choice.
I must rebut this. I don't the people complaining are talking about "oversights."
- Failing tires
- Failing ATS and power supplies
- Failing air conditioners
- Failing refrigerators
- Leaking roofs

Those things are not oversights. They represent basic functions of an RV. When I read your last couple posts, here is the synopsis I get: "Airstream has no possible way to build working trailers, so they just build whatever they can, and you ought to accept them as is."

Once more, I am astonished at this theory. I don't apologize for expecting things to "work" when I buy them. If I buy a $12 hose at the hardware store, I am sorry to say, I do not expect it to be in 3 pieces when I unroll it. I would not accept or tolerate the clerk to say, "Well jeepers mister, what more can you expect from low wage workers? You can't expect perfection you know."
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Old 07-07-2012, 10:14 AM   #51
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Ha you fellas make me laugh - I've been on the forums since 04 and the same posts are done over and over.....what my overall comment is that things have NOT changed and no matter how many complaints, or precautions will be done by those wishing to share here at the forums - the factory is not going to change - it will either remain as the status quo or it will simply get worse.

Please don't play on meanings of words i.e perfection, or settling, and such these are just descriptives with multiple meanings as the written word. They don't represent my own personal feelings of what I buy and what I get and what I am happy with or not happy with. I am not a settler - I barter, I expect something to work properly and I will stand in their face until it is done - I should not have to but that again is what we live in today to get things the way we want.

I think the multiple threads on quality issues is a fantastic heads up for newbies - for any product for that matter.

I am not up on all the details of every working part in these trailers or some of the newer dangerous issues with faulty or bad products being installed i.e. tires.

However, it does make me question - not everything is what it seems. Some can be bad some can be good. There are also several issues with tires especially in trailers. Inflation is a huge issue - even in our cars - getting proper mileage. The largest factor in tire blows today is over heating - and that is due to several things - one underinflated. Two properly loaded trailers - cargo weight. Speeds etc. But if there are proven bad tires out there then the factory should replace them before sending them out to the customer. So not sure why you had to buy new tires???

I replaced my tires on the 05 two years ago - during the huge sting over the Marathon tires - that several people said they had problems with - Tire - blow - = crap but what we did not here or see or could even quantify is their maintenance, how they tow, their set ups all sorts of factors.

I bought marathons - and I have put 40K on them without a single issue. I had a blow with the previous marathons - WHY - cause they had dry rot on the inside where I could not see - NOT because they were marathons. The trailer was only 3 years old and had very little rubber to road time. Rubber not used will rot quicker than ants to sugar. Nothing to do with the sun beating on them and the waisted money on tire covers....

Anyway off track here - I am with you fellas - you are taking my words in the wrong context.

You do get what you pay for and if your not happy then don't buy it - or take the time to do the work of (what should have been done in the first place by the factory) yourself.

In the 8 years of the thousands of complaints about Airstream - has much changed - there is the real question. Gosh even the floor plans - not a single innovative change from the basic floor plan. But I still love my little 22' made with some different option ideas from various other floor plans.

If I bought this new from the factory - I would have had them replace the flooring, come up with a better system for the night table privacy shield that never stayed in place. and Moen tap replaced because the spout is crap LOL. The fan in the fridge is way too loud, and nothing is easy to get at tee hee. But I would not trade my AS for a million bucks - okay maybe I would and buy a custom designed AS direct from the factory and stand on the line while they made it
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Old 07-07-2012, 10:25 AM   #52
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"Bob - do you really think the airstream today is being made any differently to that of when they were made in the 60's or 70' or 80's - different material different suppliers."

I'll only speak to the 1963 Safari we owned.

Yes I do...the difference being a bit more pride in 1963.

The same suppliers, yes possibly, but the original fridge lasted 30yrs. And the AC and pressurized water system was still working when sold in 2004. No leaks, and the aluminum had no corrosion, just a nice oxidized "patina". The roof vents still worked, fit well and didn't leak. The floor all solid except for about 6" around the entrance door. 120 & 12v systems still working as designed.

I don't expect the Classic will hold up near as well.

Bob


on edit.....Ha ha, me too.
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Old 07-07-2012, 10:34 AM   #53
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Bob you definitely have a point on the aluminum. And it proves that over time we use different material that is also sub par. Things are not made to last today - because of such disposable parts - made cheaply and replaced cheaply if we expect them to last then we are being unrealistic.

My 05 has pathetic corrosion issues. And no matter the replacement it will not go away just a new sheet of aluminum to corrode in record time. I do the best I can to keep her clean and keep up with the corrosion but alas there are no solutions - than to come up with a better aluminum that will not corrode.
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Old 07-07-2012, 10:45 AM   #54
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It's pretty simple, buy what you want.

Good or bad, it's our own decision. Look at it and test it out before you buy it.

Order a new one today!
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Old 07-07-2012, 10:51 AM   #55
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Yes

Have my eye on serenity bambi 16! Better yet AS just swamp me units. Alum is best material unless you want stainless! Sure carbon fiber might be nice but how long would it last in sun.
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Old 07-07-2012, 11:00 AM   #56
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" They don't last and they rot in seconds. "
And what would the Airstream difference be? Rotten floors, rotten frames, leak like a sieve, hot as an oven????????
Just because they look pretty, I am supposed to accept that??

Dave

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The point is an airstream is simply more expensive because it IS an airstream. For the ease of towing, the iconic factor and the style is the dollar value we are paying for. The sob's are decked out pretty cool but are box anchors to tow. They don't last and they rot in seconds. But it seems some people out there just see 20' trailer to trailer but the difference in price is astronomical.
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