New Feature - Forums for WBCCI Units

[Chuck]

Originally Posted by bobchevy89

GEE I thought this was a free speech forum..FOR EVERYONE..

Sorry, Bob. You thought wrong. The forum is the property of an individual, and our use of it is subject to his terms of agreement, etc, etc, yadda yadda yadda.
however, it IS a "free speech" country, and as such, you are welcome to start your own forum, and operate it however you choose.

as to the subject at hand: I'm not seeing why its such a bad idea. There are private conversations happening already. They can happen here, in a convenient format, or we can continue to send e-mails around and around, which is not so convenient. The infrastructure is here, we are here, moderators are volunteers...what skin is it off anyone's behind?
The only point I do agree with is the issue of "ownership" of the content, and what might become of it. At least, I think its something to think about.

[Janet H]

Originally Posted by dougjamie

Janet, could a MAL forum be set up?

The intent here was to offer a venue for the biz activities of a unit of interest to unit members - not to isolate a conversation of interest to all streamers. As I said earlier, this is a brand new adventure, we are find our way as we go. This is an interesting conversation....

[Chuck]

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

except for moderator/admin threads, we can all read and usually reply to all content here...

that is the principle shining feature of airsteamforums.com...

at that key feature is at risk with private forums...

what *exactly* is the risk?

I don't see what is to be lost by doing this.

[2airishuman]

i've read the user agreements and reasonably understand them...

also have some grasp of who owns the forums, the urls and so on.

i value the relative freedom we have to read and post here...

it is precious and delicate...

yes private messaging happens here; i use it too.

but my understanding is that pms are NOT viewable by anyone else? well perhaps buried deep some admins and owners can view pms?

the wally wiki is an interesting idea. it's not gone far yet and may never.

keeping most of the technical knowledge and airstream info here has worked better...so far.

how the wb conducts business is only my concern as a paid wbcci member.

but as a paid member i would not want any offical club business, votes or minutes controlled by a privately owned website...

and lets not forget AIRSTREAM.COM has some controlling input here that they do not have at wbcci.org...

my primary concern is again for private threads/forums that we must ask permission to join.

and what other segregated threads this precedent may lead too...

yes we can start our own forums-websites and some have taken their ball home to play by their own rules...

so too have many of the more experienced members migrated to weblogs...

i'd like to keep the the most diverse, free thinking members posting great stuff right here...

private forums will not further that goal...

and yes again i realize no one asked me for any of these thoughts or my opinion...

cheers
2air'

[Uberlanders]

I agree with Chuck. Their are private conversations all the time that happen through pm and email from this forum. Having a private forum for communications for WBCCI groups seems like a great idea.

As far as WBCCI becoming a priority on this forum, I think we are far from that. In fact, WBCCI is only a small portion of what we talk about here. And in order to not clutter up the threads with where to send the checks, where do we meet for our monthly business meeting etc, we now have a place for these kinds of threads to take place.

Plus, if you really wanted to be a part of a "private" forum, you would just ask to be admitted. My guess is that there will be people who get access to these forums who are not members of the club, but who are involved in the area somehow.

Kathleen

[LuminumTraila]

Originally Posted by Janet

The intent here was to offer a venue for the biz activities of a unit of interest to unit members - not to isolate a conversation of interest to all streamers. As I said earlier, this is a brand new adventure, we are find our way as we go. This is an interesting conversation....

One of the problems of being a MAL it's difficult to get together with all the other MALs to discuss business. To me, it doesn't follow that because MALs aren't a unit, they don't have business to discuss. For example, if MALs wanted to organize to approach the WBCCI for voting rights, this might be business they could organize and discuss in detail via a private forum group.

Just thinking out loud. But if it's being considered, I would vote for adding a WBCCI MAL group to the private unit forums.

-J

[rebfa]

Originally Posted by myboyburt

NEU members for the most part are wicked active here, on these forums. It's a great place for us to reach out to our membership.

Why would you want to hide your enthusiasm and activities behind "closed doors"? I enjoy reading all the NEU posts and would think that keeping this information in a public forum would be more conducive to increasing membership and member interest than if it was "hidden" behind closed doors.

Perhaps I don't understand what the perceived value is of this new space.

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by chuck

what *exactly* is the risk?

I don't see what is to be lost by doing this.

hi chuck...

i don't see what is gained by doing it....

so...

i'll provide you with one specific and one general example...

completely explaining how segregation is bad would take much longer...

---some young frustrated wb unit official aired her? local unit problems here in an open thread....
later that same person reconsidered and took another direction besides resigning....
we all got to read it, comment on it, learn about it, learn FROM it and so on.
we also gained unique insight into the wbcci overall and local unit problems....

in my opinion it was a valuable exchange and worthwhile reading for everyone even remotely interested in wbcci issues or human dynamics.

would any of that have happened IF a private unit forum had existed?

and there have been many many useful, interesting and frustrating wbcci topics discussed openly here...will that still happen?

general example...
---you have 1 hour to read and post. there are 10 doors available...
#1 is private and you have been accepted into that group.
where to you take your energy and ideas and efforts?

the overall forums and membership and collective influence of this site declines with private subforums...

who could really benefit from private forums?

consider this...
there has been an ongoing thread on a womens only rally.
we've all be able to read and post there.
no one has taken that thread in a negative direction.

if anyone could justify a private thread
it would be a group of women wanting a private rally...

don't they deserve a private subforum?

really anyone planning to attend any rally could benefit from a private thread...

do you really want guests and lurkers reading when you will be away from home...the dates and details?

i can think of many really worthy subgroups for private forums...

do you really want to go there with the overall forum membership?

cheers
2air'

[LuminumTraila]

Originally Posted by rebfa

Why would you want to hide your enthusiasm and activities behind "closed doors"?

You wouldn't. If I understand it right, the enthusiasm and activities that are currently discussed on the open forum would remain there. The unit forum would be for discussion of unit business that usually takes place off the forum, at business meetings, rallies, etc.

Am I understanding this right, NEU?

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by dougjamie

If I understand it right, the enthusiasm and activities that are currently discussed on the open forum would remain there. The unit forum would be for discussion of unit business that usually takes place off the forum, at business meetings, rallies, etc.

hi dougjamie...

reread post #31 and try answering the questions about what is or isn't private forum content...

and who will moderate that?

cheers
2air'

[LuminumTraila]

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

hi dougjamie...

reread post #31 and try answering the questions about what is or isn't private forum content...

and who will moderate that?

cheers
2air'

The choice of whether to post on private or public thread would be up to the person posting, no? That is their choice regardless of whether there is a private unit forum. They can choose public thread, or private PM, or another website forum, or unit email list, or Yahoo group, or email to friends...

From what Janet wrote in her post #1, the unit forum will be moderated by a moderator chosen by the unit. Janet, any details on how this works? Does the moderator work under the same rules as ASForum moderators? Also, what is the intention of the private forum as far as who will use it? Is it for the use of just the leadership of the unit? Or is intended to be used by all the members of a particular unit, and the moderator just verifies whether a person is a member of the unit and can join the discussion?

-Jamie

[Stefrobrts]

I am on another forum which has a large public area, and a small private area for paid club members. Perhaps you would be surprised to know that the private area is rarely used. The vast majority of posts still are made to the public area, because that is where you get the most activity and responses. The private area is used for officer discussions, and planning the annual rally. Then the rally discussion is moved to the public area when the details are worked out. I think if you experienced this sort of set up, you would see that the stuff that's hidden in the private areas isn't anything that the general public is missing out on. It's mostly stuff the general public wouldn't care less about.

[Chuck]

2air, I think I do see your points. But I think most of them can be overcome with a little vigilance. No different than the rest of the forum; it needs moderating. but its %99.9 self-moderated. occasionally, I delete a duplicate post. or split off-topic posts into their own threads. Or move ads for "parts" from the "trailer" section to the "parts" section. The same could be done with private threads, by their moderators. The thread you mentioned should have been public...and if it was in a private forum, it could have been moved. It wasn't really about "unit business"; it was a unit member asking for help making a decision.
What I'm talking about is more along the lines of what Steph mentioned....stuff you wouldn't want to see, for the most part. still, things that need to be decided "by committee", where threaded discussions are easier to manage, rather than circulated e-mails. like, "in who's basement are we going to store the unit coffee pot?". there's a bunch of "housekeeping" type stuff...boring stuff that would just clutter up the portal page if it were public. Stuff like, "our unit's equipment trailer has a flat tire, and needs to be fixed. do we need to get approval from the membership at the spring business meeting (6 months from now!), or can we appropriate funds now so we can get the thing fixed, and bring the equipment TO the spring business meeting?".
just a hypothetical...
stuff like that is why we elect representatives...to handle that crap for us, so we can just "go camping".

[myboyburt]

Originally Posted by rebfa

Why would you want to hide your enthusiasm and activities behind "closed doors"? I enjoy reading all the NEU posts and would think that keeping this information in a public forum would be more conducive to increasing membership and member interest than if it was "hidden" behind closed doors.

Perhaps I don't understand what the perceived value is of this new space.

Thanks for your kind words about the NEU's enthusiasm and our activities being posted here in on the forums. These types of posts would still be in the "regular" forums. As you've said it helps us increase membership and interest in our events. In fact 30 new NEU members (membership is by rig, so more than 60 newbies) in the last year can be attributed to our posts here on the forums!

I think that the WBCCI Unit forum would be for the dull stuff. Examples:

• NEU Inventory - what's available for rally hosts to use (maybe even post pictures of the items so folks know exactly what we have)
• Membership directory info and updates
• Committee meeting info
• Meeting minutes (ZZZZZzzzzz)
• Rally reports
• etc, etc.

This type of information is going out by email now, no easy way to track who has seen what or a way to place information in categories.

[Uberlanders]

The other great thing about this type of thread system is that it will join those members together which are geographically separated. For example, the NEU is a vast network of people living at times thousands of miles from each other. What a great way to keep people in the loop.

And again, just because you are not a member of that unit, doesn't mean that you can't participate in that forum. You just have to submit your request for access to that unit's moderator.

[myboyburt]

Originally Posted by Uberlanders

The other great thing about this type of thread system is that it will join those members together which are geographically separated. For example, the NEU is a vast network of people living at times thousands of miles from each other. What a great way to keep people in the loop.

And again, just because you are not a member of that unit, doesn't mean that you can't participate in that forum. You just have to submit your request for access to that unit's moderator.

Uberlanders is so right about this! We have "regular" NEU members in AK, CA, AZ, WA, FL, MI and even some based in New England.

[Andy R]

We have been trying to support the WBCCI since our inception. We host 8 WBCCI unit websites for FREE (all we require are links back) and this is just another service we are offering the Airstream community.

I think it is a great way for an organization like WBCCI to take advantage of a FREE service and hopefully it will bring some new members to our community.

I suspect that if someone posts about polishing, rivets, axles, etc in a unit forum, they will quickly be directed to another thread. Also, over time they will learn that if they want lots of quality replies, they should post in the open forums.

I am not sure if anyone mentioned this already but these forums are even private from our moderators. The administrators can view the forums but are asked to not read the discussions unless asked by the unit leader about a forum issue, etc.

Every coin has two sides and I do understand your view that this creates private areas (as you are calling segregation) but the flip side of that is the benefits to the units to streamline their communications/operations. If we can help them out, then I say we at least try and see how it goes...

[Stefrobrts]

Originally Posted by chuck

Stuff like, "our unit's equipment trailer has a flat tire, and needs to be fixed. do we need to get approval from the membership at the spring business meeting (6 months from now!), or can we appropriate funds now so we can get the thing fixed, and bring the equipment TO the spring business meeting?".

I remember one rally where the 'quick business meeting' after breakfast ended up being an hour of discussing the equipment trailer, every last detail of what was in it, and where they were going to store it, and if the broken coffee pots could be fixed. It went on forever..and ever..and ever...

But see, we have meetings at rallys because everyone is so far apart, it's the only time they are all together. But now we can use the net, and people who are far flung can be more involved if they want to be. And people who don't want to hear about the equipment trailer can skip that thread There are also times you might want to discuss things that don't belong in public, like the health of another unit member.

And getting people used to using the forum will give them the opportunity to have a presence here in the public forums, planning rallys and stuff like that, that might bring in new members. I just see this as such a win-win for any unit that wants to take advantage of it.

I'm very tempted to stick it out another year just to see what happens

[47WeeWind]

Originally Posted by Janet

The intent here was to offer a venue for the biz activities of a unit of interest to unit members - not to isolate a conversation of interest to all streamers. As I said earlier, this is a brand new adventure, we are find our way as we go. This is an interesting conversation....

Why not limit postings on the Private Unit Forums to solely "mundane" and dull boring unit business matters, so 2air won't feel he is missing out on somerthing exciting or of human interest? Besides, if anything appears there which is the least bit juicy, tintilating or explosive, I'll bet that Private Unit Forum will sping a leak and the goodies will dribble out into public view. OTOH, keeping those Unit biz Forums open just might cure those insomniacs who troll the Forums during the wee morning hours because they cannot get to sleep. Keeping them open might be a worthwhile public service, eh?

[2airishuman]

many of the replies here offer the notion that this new feature is free, free, free...

like free is good.

first it isn't free not really.
it will take space, time, moderation and
because these are segregated areas of an otherwise open forum...

freedom is exactly what is limited...

but let me mention why free isn't always good and why not seeing the dangers and risks does not mean they aren't present...

this is a medical example.

Adult men are at risk for a common form of cancer. many die from it but many more die for other reasons while never knowing they have it....

there is a simple blood test that screens for it, the test cost 100$.
a group decided to offer the test FREE to all adult men past a certain age...

free is good right?

what happened?

more men died, were permanetly harmed or suffered as a result of the free test.

why?

because some tests were falsely positive.
those folks had more tests, biopsies and operations.
and some died or were harmed by the further medical intervents, and as a result of the original FREE test they would not have had otherwise...

how does this even remotely apply to this web site?

it is a simple example of how good intentions can and DO lead to BAD outcomes...

here is a simple forum example...

one big issue here is server security. i don't know how much effort goes into protecting the servers, the info, our private data and so on...

but i appreciate what ever IS done.

and like mac users we are somewhat ignored by hackers...

why?

because all the information here is available to anyone who joins...and most of it is searchable...

no need to hack the website...not really. just join and read.

so now lets introduce PRIVATE areas....
with mundane info but also with meeting minutes, votes, officer opinions and anything else a limited group wants to keep private....

imo private areas WILL increase the risk of malicious entry into the servers....
whenever info is kept secret SOMEONE will appear who wants into it.....

not a question of if but when and how often...

think i'm crazy?

have you been to the wally wiki site?
every time i've visited i've had to wade through the filth and porn and hijacks...
so much so that it is not worth visiting.
and i suspect the folks tending the site have spent more time cleaning it than posting content...

so that is just one way private areas may increase the risk for each of us who use the open free forums here....

and this issue will not be free...

cheers
2air'

IT people, bless their hearts are not all that careful as a group.
they often do things that later bite them or others in the 4$$....
because they didn't 'see the harm in it'

you don't need examples really...aol? the va? the irs? mastercard?