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Old 10-30-2013, 03:28 PM   #41
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+1

Rule of thumb is that a basic solar installation for an Airstream should be around 400 watts of panels. Full timing in the winter would require several times that many.



I've lived that way and while yes you can do it there is a lot to be said for drains.

Another fact to consider is that the "cabin modality" of carrying water in buckets and heating it on the stove requires a good deal more counter and stove space than an Airstream has to offer. In my experience, having lived/cooked in that environment quite a good deal, even for two people you at least need an apartment-sized 4-burner stove and room for two 5-gallon buckets on the counter and, if you're collecting greywater, one under teh sink.

The RV stoves are barely big enough for a spaghetti pot let alone something big enough for bath water
If it comes to that we both have showers where we work. But I'm assuming we're going to have to tough it up and use the furnace during the day. We'll have to do some math when it comes to buying propane/ using electricity and see how feasible this idea is. I wouldn't have to think of ALL these factors if I lived down south Once my husband gets out of school we'll be moving to slightly warmer climate. But until then we may have to come up with some creative ideas. I may have to start my in home business early and manage things from home. I sincerely appreciate your helpful criticism and warnings
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Old 10-30-2013, 03:30 PM   #42
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Problems with heat, plumbing, condensation, ventilation and discomfort will probably scuttle the concept of an Airstream in winter with a tiny solar electrical system in short order. They are a poor winter cabin, slightly better than a tent.
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Old 10-30-2013, 03:46 PM   #43
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Problems with heat, plumbing, condensation, ventilation and discomfort will probably scuttle the concept of an Airstream in winter with a tiny solar electrical system in short order. They are a poor winter cabin, slightly better than a tent.
What if everything was insulated? How big of a solar system do you need to run a propane furnace and water pump? I was just hoping I wouldn't have to start with a big solar system but if I have to I will up the wattage. What about ventilation? What problems will I run into?
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Old 10-30-2013, 05:07 PM   #44
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What if everything was insulated?
It is. The distance between the inner and outer walls does not provide enough space for insulation suitable for true winter use. The problems are not unique to Airstreams -- most other RVs are the same way.

Few Airstreams have double-glazed windows; those few that do don't have them throughout and tend to have problems with them. There are a handful of non-Airstream RVs with double-glazed windows, but reports vary on how much better they are.

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How big of a solar system do you need to run a propane furnace and water pump?
The water pump doesn't use much.

The propane furnaces generally draw 10a. How cold will it get where you are? At 10 degrees the fan will run over 50% of the time (I have a chart somewhere that I made) and it draws around 10 amps when it runs, so you'll use 120 AH a day. Allowing for wiring, controller, and battery losses, that is around 1800 watts.

Solar Insolation Map

Spokane shows an average of 4.48 hours of sun per day, which would mean you'd need 401 watts of PV just to run the furnace -- on an average day. During the winter, you'd need more, and you'd have to allow some for lighting, fans, and other uses. How much? I'm guessing 1000 watts still wouldn't be enough but ask one of the solar guys. That's more panels than you'll fit on the trailer, anyway.

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I was just hoping I wouldn't have to start with a big solar system but if I have to I will up the wattage.
You're in Washington. In the winter it's cloudy and the days are short. It's a poor environment for solar power. You'd probably be best off having utility power run in. If that isn't feasible, you'll be better of with a generator.

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What about ventilation? What problems will I run into?
You will get condensation on the walls, windows, and other surfaces due to the cold. Ventilation helps to some degree however when the weather is really cold there's not much you can do.
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Old 10-30-2013, 05:15 PM   #45
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Sixty years ago my grandparents lived on a small farm and I spent a great deal of time there. It was wonderful.

They had no electricity, no plumbing, only wood fuel for cooking and heating. They had a big wood cookstove, and a big wood heating stove which was stoked with large dry hand-split oak at night and burned to embers by morning. And stoked again. They were there all day every day keeping the wood burners going in winter. Often snowed in.

There was an outdoor well pump, with a handle, which often had to be thawed and primed with hot water heated on the cookstove. You carried the water in, and heated it for baths. The toilet was an outdoor "house" over a pit, supplemented with pots to be emptied every morning.

This is how the pioneers you refer to did it, not off to jobs during the day. But the major difference between you and them, aside from seldom leaving home, is their home had volume. The big wood stoves' tremendous heat output was modulated by the size of the house; there was plenty of air and ventilation and the house absorbed and released the heat. Excessive moisture (burning dry wood dries the air, burning propane produces much moisture) passed right through the non-vapor barrier walls. Similar was a pioneer's log cabin, so different is a thin aluminum shell.

Airstreams are tiny, three-season shelters. It takes a lot of electric and propane to overcome that design in winter. Solar electric in short winter days at the low angle of the sun will not do it, even without overcast days.

We live in a rural part of the country today, but even in our county, a house or trailer set up this way would not be allowed. The minimum would be a septic and well system approved by them. Then there are state building codes that regulate all dwellings. I hate it but that's what happens as populations grow.
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Old 10-30-2013, 06:18 PM   #46
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I think it is possible to live in a small, well built, dwelling during the winter, but an Airstream would not be my first choice - as much as I love them. They're built for travelling, for movement. When the weather turns, an Airstream is designed to leave, not to suffer through it.

Have you considered a tiny house, stick built on a trailer frame? While they weigh a lot more than an Airstream, and are not really suitable for extended travelling, they can be built to withstand almost any climate in comfort.

You would still have to solve the power problem, but you'd live in a building where condensation, heating and isolation would be minor problems.
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Old 10-30-2013, 06:48 PM   #47
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I would think the power company would run electric to a pole like they do for mobile homes and with careful use you would be far better off.
In many places they will even set a pole, run the line for a really small fee and the monthly minimum would probably be less than $20.

RV propane furnaces are a propane hog and would be your largest expense, I suspect electric heat would be 1/3 the cost. Plus you will have to rent a tank large enough to have it serviced by a delivery truck.

We lived in our camper over 4 months in the winter with occasional nights down to 18 deg and daytime usually above 35 and used small electric heaters.

I understand having a really tight budget and willing to rough it but do give serious consideration to water and electricity before ruling them out.
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Old 10-30-2013, 07:50 PM   #48
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Garry makes a good point on propane usage. When I lived in my Airstream during a west coast winter (mild compared to inland Washington), I went through at least two 30 pound tanks every 5 or 6 days. That's considerably more expensive than heating a small home with electricity. To be honest, you'd be better off building a one room cabin that is well insulated and has all the mod cons within a small space.
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Old 10-30-2013, 10:36 PM   #49
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The propane furnaces generally draw 10a. How cold will it get where you are? At 10 degrees the fan will run over 50% of the time (I have a chart somewhere that I made) and it draws around 10 amps when it runs, so you'll use 120 AH a day. Allowing for wiring, controller, and battery losses, that is around 1800 watts.

Solar Insolation Map

Spokane shows an average of 4.48 hours of sun per day, which would mean you'd need 401 watts of PV just to run the furnace -- on an average day. During the winter, you'd need more, and you'd have to allow some for lighting, fans, and other uses. How much? I'm guessing 1000 watts still wouldn't be enough but ask one of the solar guys. That's more panels than you'll fit on the trailer, anyway.

You're in Washington. In the winter it's cloudy and the days are short. It's a poor environment for solar power. You'd probably be best off having utility power run in. If that isn't feasible, you'll be better of with a generator.

You will get condensation on the walls, windows, and other surfaces due to the cold. Ventilation helps to some degree however when the weather is really cold there's not much you can do.
Thanks. So it's clear that living in an airstream during winter and being gone 10-12 hours a day will not be feasible with no electricity.

My boss actually asked me today if I wanted to work from home since she's never in her office. If I work from home that will solve the heating problem as I will be able to keep the fire stoked.

I'm looking into places with electricity already at the property so that during the winter I will not have to worry. If we rent the place out that we were thinking about I don't believe electricity is an option since there is a duplex already on the property. It would have to be metered and that's too complicated.
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Old 10-30-2013, 10:44 PM   #50
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Have you considered a tiny house, stick built on a trailer frame? While they weigh a lot more than an Airstream, and are not really suitable for extended travelling, they can be built to withstand almost any climate in comfort.

You would still have to solve the power problem, but you'd live in a building where condensation, heating and isolation would be minor problems.
We considered things similar to the tumbleweed tiny house but they are still considerably more expensive than an airstream.
I may solve the condensation and power problem by working from home keeping a fire going. This would dry the air.
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Old 10-30-2013, 10:50 PM   #51
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I would think the power company would run electric to a pole like they do for mobile homes and with careful use you would be far better off.
In many places they will even set a pole, run the line for a really small fee and the monthly minimum would probably be less than $20.

RV propane furnaces are a propane hog and would be your largest expense, I suspect electric heat would be 1/3 the cost. Plus you will have to rent a tank large enough to have it serviced by a delivery truck.
The monthly minimum is about 12 here in Washington. If we can find the right place with electric we'll hook it up.

It's clear a furnace won't do the trick. I'm better off to work from home and keep the fireplace lit.
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Old 10-30-2013, 10:54 PM   #52
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To be honest, you'd be better off building a one room cabin that is well insulated and has all the mod cons within a small space.
I wish I could but I cannot without owning land. That's why we want to live in an airstream. so that we can save money buy land with cash and build our cabin as we get the money for materials. We chose an airstream because you can put a fireplace in one.
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Old 10-31-2013, 04:31 AM   #53
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If you have power, and you need power, then you don't need a fireplace or wood burner. A small electric heater will keep a trailer warm with no problems, no mess and no constant stoking of the stove.

The stove you've chosen needs near constant attention. It also needs firewood that's been cut down to a very small size. You'll be spending your day tending the fire, cutting wood, cleaning the stove, repacking the stove.

Especially when working from home you now need reliable power for your computer and internet access. You need power because now you can't shower at work, or use the washroom.
This means that you are creating large amounts of grey water. Unless you're comfortable ignoring zoning regulations and just dumping it, not a green nor responsible choice in the long run, you will need to dump your tanks frequently, or install a septic system.

I still think you should look at other, highly insulated, trailers instead of an Airstream. Arctic Fox comes to mind. You won't have the same condensation issues, they are cheaper, and just better suited to your adventure.

An Airstream isn't the best choice for you. I don't mean to sound down on this, but I am not sure if you've thought this through. In the long run, it might even be much cheaper to rent a small apartment.
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Old 10-31-2013, 09:01 AM   #54
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Old 10-31-2013, 11:26 AM   #55
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If you have power, and you need power, then you don't need a fireplace or wood burner. A small electric heater will keep a trailer warm with no problems, no mess and no constant stoking of the stove.
When there's no wind, a small electric heater will bring the trailer temperature around 15 degrees up from the outside temperature if it runs constantly, and use 36 kwh of electricity per day. So if it's 30 degrees outside the trailer will be 45 degrees inside, etc.

Most fulltimers drive south during the winter.

Nearly all of those who stay in sub-freezing weather have utility electrical power available and heat with propane. They have the local propane company drop off a bulk tank and fill it as necessary. Around here, 500 gallon propane tanks are the most common, and if you live in an Airstream full time, you'll use all a 500 gallon tank will hold in one winter. Rates are aroudn $1.50 a gallon in that quantity so it's really a pretty good deal, compared to electricity, at least.

Quote:
This means that you are creating large amounts of grey water. Unless you're comfortable ignoring zoning regulations and just dumping it, not a green nor responsible choice in the long run, you will need to dump your tanks frequently, or install a septic system.
Besides you'll have an ice slick that will look gross and, when it melts, smell bad.
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Old 10-31-2013, 12:33 PM   #56
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When there's no wind, a small electric heater will bring the trailer temperature around 15 degrees up from the outside temperature if it runs constantly, and use 36 kwh of electricity per day. So if it's 30 degrees outside the trailer will be 45 degrees inside, etc.

Most fulltimers drive south during the winter.

Nearly all of those who stay in sub-freezing weather have utility electrical power available and heat with propane. They have the local propane company drop off a bulk tank and fill it as necessary. Around here, 500 gallon propane tanks are the most common, and if you live in an Airstream full time, you'll use all a 500 gallon tank will hold in one winter. Rates are aroudn $1.50 a gallon in that quantity so it's really a pretty good deal, compared to electricity, at least.

Besides you'll have an ice slick that will look gross and, when it melts, smell bad.
We were already planning on paying for propane. Obviously it's clear that during the winter we must be hooked up to electrical power. That's not something we can skirt around. We have a steady wood solution when it comes to heating. Would heating with wood when the furnace is not running offset some of the cost of propane?

Obviously I'm not comfortable with disobeying zoning laws and I'm not trying to do anything illegal. We have a dump site for grey water. We are not trying to live like trailer trash. Just trying to live differently.

We like the idea of taking our home with us when we move. We were also hoping to live in an AS until we can build a log cabin and live in that. We are trying to avoid debt anywhere we can and build slowly as we get the money. I know that it can be done because my aunt and uncle are doing the same thing in Montana right now living in an RV with a wood stove. They just don't have service and are very busy people so asking then these questions is difficult.

From what I have read here we are setting our plans back several months possibly a year to prepare. Which means we will only be living in the trailer for 2 years before traveling then building our home. And there's the matter of if it's actually feasible given our current situation. We love where we live now. We have a good deal on rent and a big back yard in a good location. And we do not live in a neighborhood. I will not move anywhere else because in the price range we want to be in to save money we would have to move into town and have no yard for gardening or for our dog. Which is why I'm comparing my present situation to the airstream situation.
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Old 12-07-2013, 03:54 PM   #57
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I've only full timed through a winter in Alabama, so you might just discredit my opinion...

I have an 80s 34' sovereign and a non functioning furnace. I managed to negotiate a lot in a rural park on a river bank for about $250 a month with 30amp electricity included. My trailers power was wired to where I could run the electric heater element in my roof AC, an electric ceramic heater in the front of the trailer, and another ceramic heater in the bedroom area and have them on individual circuits running full tilt without even warming up the wiring.

I'd hate to see what sort of electric bill I ran up for that poor lady, but running just the roof heater kept it at ~65* with high 30s outside while I was at work all day and running all 3 heaters combined kept me and my dog warm through a few single digit nights. No humidity issues to speak of with that dry heat, and I kept standard 30lb propane tanks for about two weeks per tank running the 6 gal water heater for 10 mins before each shower and doing all my cooking on the stove.

The neighbors in the park were fantastic and I even paid one lady's $30 a month cell bill to have her come walk and play with my hyperactive dogo-Dalmatian mutant dog everyday, finished my schooling, and saved up money to throw down on a nice Duramax 2500 with a 0% APR deal.

Now I have a house while the airstream gets a restoration, but I'm considering flipping the house and moving back into the airstream full time in a year or two.

I think the wood stove is a great dry heat source idea, but I've never stocked one continuously so it may be a hassle. I think a wood stove and a natures head might be a great recipe for sitting still through a winter, but i dont have any airstream experience that far north in the winter and neither do you. Make sure you're listening to the experienced ones here instead of just reading or probing for the answers you WANT to hear. Speaking about ideals is great but taking actions based on ideals instead of reality gets you in trouble fast. Just look at our government
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Old 12-08-2013, 07:23 PM   #58
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I am assuming that you will have a fresh water tank or city water.

You will need to keep the fresh water tank heated to some degree to keep from freezing. Many Airstreams have heat from the furnace ducted to the tanks.

If using city water, you will need to use an electric heat wrapped hose.

Many people also put a high wattage light bulb under the trailer to also help keep the tanks from freezing.

Here is a forum thread on an individual who lived in his RV in Alaska this past winter http://www.airforums.com/forums/f462/alaska-winter-in-my-1968-streamline-empress-97054.html

Just food for thought.
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Old 01-31-2014, 11:13 PM   #59
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This thread seems to have left the tool storage question behind, but in case anyone hasn't suggested it, why not by an enclosed utility trailer? Perfect "she'd" that you can take anywhere...
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Old 02-02-2014, 07:02 AM   #60
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Not knowing how much stuff your husband has. I for one am selling all of mine. I will not need the big stuff when I am fulltiming in my AS. Go look at MDT trucks with a box on the back. Can put good amount of weight in them and you also end up with a truck to pull your trailer. You will need to start and drive the truck at lease once a week to keep everything lubed and brakes un rusted but who knows what the future brings. I am getting a M2/106 Freightliner with a service body on the back. I am a ASE master mechanic and have to haul my tool box with me. Lot of weight. But if you look up service bodys(I am using Reading) You can put a roof over the back and get a lot of storage in it. First thing is to look at what you are getting DO YOU REALLY NEED IT. I am selling,giving away and throwing away tools that have been handed down to me. Some of the old stuff is just not worth keeping. My 2 cents
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