1998 LY 30 front tire wear on the inside edge after two front end alignments?

[Trident]

After Two front end alignment in two different states anyone had this problem and please what did you do?
What are these alignment shops missing after $2000 in parts and tires that only lasted 8000 miles with tread worn on the inside edge?

[garypk]

What have they replaced?

[Trident]

Originally Posted by garypk

What have they replaced?

Sorry I took so long to answer.
Parts replaced in CA on the front end and aligned.
Last year Les Schwab checked the and adjusted the alignment.
This year noticed the same ware pattern as before that is ware on the inside edge of both tires.
Two places looked at the two front tires and declared both bad. The place that wasn't Les Schwab had two Firestone tires I bough them. That large truck firm put in two solid hours on the front end alignment I watched him work.
I had one question, what caused the tires to ware out on the inside edge ?
His answer was he found the front end slightly off but nothing that would cause that ware pattern and no parts that needed replaced.

PS
These Firestones have a different look then the Honkooks that I only got 8000 miles on. Different in that the firestone look wider and don't curve up on the inside and outside edge of the tire. The firestones call for 110 lb of air the honkooks 85LB
Put 600 miles on last week ware the same inside edge and outside.
Thanks for the reply.

[Mike1997]

I have Hankooks on mine and everything is normal with about 10,000 miles on them. Plan to have them rotated in October when I get to the Freightliner RV Center for service.

Years ago I had an older Mercury that had excessive wear on the inside front tires. Turned out the bearing were shot as well as some of the rubber bushings. Replaced all and problem went away.

[CapriRacer]

Inside shoulder front tire wear is caused by too much negative camber, or too much toe out, or an Akerman (varied spelling) problem. My vote is for that last one. Do you do a lot of sharp turns?

Does anyone know if Airstream built the chassis or did they build the body on top of a chassis built by someone else?

[Trident]

Originally Posted by CapriRacer

Inside shoulder front tire wear is caused by too much negative camber, or too much toe out, or an Akerman (varied spelling) problem. My vote is for that last one. Do you do a lot of sharp turns?

Does anyone know if Airstream built the chassis or did they build the body on top of a chassis built by someone else?

Thanks
No sharp turns ever.
And the chassis is a Chevy P30 1998
Please what is an Ackerman and how do I fix it?

[CapriRacer]

Originally Posted by Trident

Thanks No sharp turns ever. .....

Thanks, but I am having trouble believing that parking doesn't result in sharp turns.

Originally Posted by Trident

...... And the chassis is a Chevy P30 1998 ......

The reason I asked was I could belive that Airstream might not get the akerman right, but a mainstream truck chassis manufacturer would.

Originally Posted by Trident

....... Please what is an Ackerman and how do I fix it?

Akerman is the difference in steering angle the front tires make when the steering wheel is turned - the tire on the inside of the turn needs to turn more sharply. This is built in to the steering geometry and is not adjustable - short of changing parts.

But I want to make sure I have this right: A year ago, you noticed the wear pattern. Les Schwab did an alignment. Then this year (8000 miles later), you noticed the wear again. A truck place did an alignment and changed the tires from Hankook (85 psi max) to Firestone (110 psi max). You are now asking us - 600 miles later - about the new wear pattern that appears to be the same as before.

And I am hoping you realize that tire wear doesn't go away just because you did an alignment. A new wear pattern only goes on top of what is already there, so even an even wear pattern on top of an inside shoulder wear pattern results in an inside shoulder wear pattern.

Oh, and what tire size are we talking about?

[Trident]

Originally Posted by CapriRacer

Thanks, but I am having trouble believing that parking doesn't result in sharp turns.



The reason I asked was I could belive that Airstream might not get the akerman right, but a mainstream truck chassis manufacturer would.





But I want to make sure I have this right: A year ago, you noticed the wear pattern. Les Schwab did an alignment. Then this year (8000 miles later), you noticed the wear again. A truck place did an alignment and changed the tires from Hankook (85 psi max) to Firestone (110 psi max). You are now asking us - 600 miles later - about the new wear pattern that appears to be the same as before.

And I am hoping you realize that tire wear doesn't go away just because you did an alignment.

Oh, and what tire size are we talking about?

Two years ago (approximately) while on a vacation I noticed wear on the inside edge of the tries I had on he RV at the time. Looked strange to me so we stoped at what I was told to be a good front end repair shop in CA to have it checked out. Lots of new front end parts were replaced and a received an alignment $1500 and sent on my way. His shop said go on these tires even thought warn on the inside edge.
I got to Arkansas and bought the two Hankooks $600. We drove around for another two month then back to WA. Getting ready for another road trip the following travel season I stoped at Les Schwab I don't remember how or what they said but the tech at LS saw something on the two front tires that caused me your pay for another front end check and alignment $135. I was told no parts and the alignment was off only slightly .034 on something. I remember thinking after $1500 In CA I would hope all was well. We went to our the east coast again (not the same place) and back to WA I am sticking with the 8000 miles number on the Honkooks that's plus or minus. No tread on the inside edge plenty of tread on the rest of the tire. Two firestones tires a front end alignment $1000.00 I now have $3100 in the front end.
After a 500 mile trip last week I think I am measuring with my dial calipers a little more ware .016 on the inside edge of the tire then the outside edge.

The other un scientific observation I made is that the little rubber hairs on the face of these new firestones were the same number when I got to my destination about 250 miles (that is)there were the same number of these hairs on both sides of the tire. When I returned home I got down there and looked and there are no rubber heirs on the inside edge but there is on the outside face.

Tire size 225/70R/19.5

Thank you for your help on this.

[CapriRacer]

Thanks for the new info.

I think there is an alignment problem that is inherent in the vehicle. The fact that after 500 miles (if I am understanding this correctly), there is a 5/32nds difference in wear says something is truly amiss.

First step is to find out what the alignment specs are supposed to be. I'm a tire guy and I just don't have access to alignment specs - especially medium trucks.

Can anyone help here?

Second is to do a bit of investigative work. If you are willing to do a little manual labor (nothing strenuous!), it is amazing how much alignment measurements you can do with string, a tape measure, and a level.

[mayco]

I'm no tire guy but I've done some work on my front end, 1982 310TD. On the Chevy P30 the camber is adjusted using shims to adjust the angle on the upper control arm. Theoretically, once you have it set correctly, it really shouldn't need adjustment. Unless, as in my case, the bolts loosen up and you lose a shim or two. The point is, once its set its set. The toe is adjusted with your tie rods and adjustment sleeve. I believe the tie rods are the only component that can be "adjusted".
So if I were you I would inspect all your components that may affect alignment. Ball joints, tie rods, bell cranks, etc etc. you've got something out of whack. Finding a shop that knows what they are doing on these P30s is a challenge for me anyway.
Do you know if the bell cranks have been replaced with SuperSteer cranks? Its a popular after market change but it changes your specs for alignmen. Do you know what components have been replaced?

[Trident]

Originally Posted by mayco

I'm no tire guy but I've done some work on my front end, 1982 310TD. On the Chevy P30 the camber is adjusted using shims to adjust the angle on the upper control arm. Theoretically, once you have it set correctly, it really shouldn't need adjustment. Unless, as in my case, the bolts loosen up and you lose a shim or two. The point is, once its set its set. The toe is adjusted with your tie rods and adjustment sleeve. I believe the tie rods are the only component that can be "adjusted".
So if I were you I would inspect all your components that may affect alignment. Ball joints, tie rods, bell cranks, etc etc. you've got something out of whack. Finding a shop that knows what they are doing on these P30s is a challenge for me anyway.
Do you know if the bell cranks have been replaced with SuperSteer cranks? Its a popular after market change but it changes your specs for alignmen. Do you know what components have been replaced?

I am trying to find the bill from the shop that replaced the worn out parts on the front end in CA.
If anything were warn out on this front end these other two shops would not be shy about telling me that I need to replace this or that.
I hope this shop will keep an eye on the ware pattern on these new Firestones tires and make adjustments as needed.

[Trident]

Originally Posted by mayco

I'm no tire guy but I've done some work on my front end, 1982 310TD. On the Chevy P30 the camber is adjusted using shims to adjust the angle on the upper control arm. Theoretically, once you have it set correctly, it really shouldn't need adjustment. Unless, as in my case, the bolts loosen up and you lose a shim or two. The point is, once its set its set. The toe is adjusted with your tie rods and adjustment sleeve. I believe the tie rods are the only component that can be "adjusted".
So if I were you I would inspect all your components that may affect alignment. Ball joints, tie rods, bell cranks, etc etc. you've got something out of whack. Finding a shop that knows what they are doing on these P30s is a challenge for me anyway.
Do you know if the bell cranks have been replaced with SuperSteer cranks? Its a popular after market change but it changes your specs for alignmen. Do you know what components have been replaced?

Parts for front end bought 09/23/2014
2 each control arm shaft Assy upper front susp. NCP 2803563 $193
2 each ball joint lower front susp NCP 2601200 $175

Labor, control shaft and bushing, ball joints.
I will try to add picture of readings before and after recent front end alignment.
I hope someone can tell me what is going on !

[mayco]

Typically I believe, uneven wear on the inside of the steer tires is caused by excessive toe or camber. I don't have the specs on the road with me right now but you can search them out on the web. You may want to take a look at your new upper control arms and make sure that they have the metal shims in place where they mount to the frame. They are easily visible from your wheel well. Those shims are what sets your camber. Your toe is set with your tie rod assemblies. I just replaced my tie rods before an alignment, it's not too tough of a job. You might want to perform your own wear test. If you google up "how to test tie rods" you'll find the procedure.
If you are still getting wear on the inside of your steer tires then something is worn or out of adjustment. There are quite a few components in your steering system but your upper and lower ball joints, complete tie rod assembly, upper control arm bushing, and bell cranks should be checked for sure. Make sure they put those shims in place!

[Trident]

Originally Posted by mayco

Typically I believe, uneven wear on the inside of the steer tires is caused by excessive toe or camber. I don't have the specs on the road with me right now but you can search them out on the web. You may want to take a look at your new upper control arms and make sure that they have the metal shims in place where they mount to the frame. They are easily visible from your wheel well. Those shims are what sets your camber. Your toe is set with your tie rod assemblies. I just replaced my tie rods before an alignment, it's not too tough of a job. You might want to perform your own wear test. If you google up "how to test tie rods" you'll find the procedure.
If you are still getting wear on the inside of your steer tires then something is worn or out of adjustment. There are quite a few components in your steering system but your upper and lower ball joints, complete tie rod assembly, upper control arm bushing, and bell cranks should be checked for sure. Make sure they put those shims in place!

Attachment 1
Does anything on these print outs indicate a front end problem?
I will look up checking tie rod ends, now.
Thanks

[mayco]

Some links that might help you out;
http://www.oemys-performance.com/med...-alignment.pdf

https://www.repairprocedures.com/ser..._9_186133.html


I really don't have the expertise to advise you on your chart readings, but you can compare it to the factory specs and see where you stand. Might take some time on the computer to understand the language. The first link above is a pretty good tutor on alignment. Its a bit long to read but you'll understand what's what when you get done. My specs are for AFTER installing SuperSteer bell cranks so they are a bit different than factory specs.
Sorry I can't be of more help. Thank god for the internet though, you will find most of what you need if you keep looking. So take your chart and compare it to the factory specs and see what you find.

[CapriRacer]

Trident,

Thanks for posting the alignment sheet.

The thing that stands out to me is:

1) The "Actual Toe" - and I am assuming that "Actual" is what they left it at - is out of spec. Why on earth would any alignment shop allow a vehicle to leave their shop out of spec? So I think you are going to continue to have problems - unless their plan was to over compensate and what they are trying to do is even things out.

2) The rear axle has a weird toe - hardly any on one side and a lot of toe out on the other. I would think that means the vehicle would "wander" - as though the rear couldn't find a position to be in.

So can you tell us what the vehicle is currently doing?

[mayco]

My TOTAL toe is .25" as per the specs for SS bell cranks install. Not sure how that compares to Chevy factory spec.

[CapriRacer]

Originally Posted by mayco

My TOTAL toe is .25" as per the specs for SS bell cranks install. Not sure how that compares to Chevy factory spec.

According to the alignment sheet Trident attached, the factory specs are 0.00" to 0.10". That seems correct to my eye!

[Trident]

Originally Posted by CapriRacer

Trident,



Thanks for posting the alignment sheet.



The thing that stands out to me is:



1) The "Actual Toe" - and I am assuming that "Actual" is what they left it at - is out of spec. Why on earth would any alignment shop allow a vehicle to leave their shop out of spec? So I think you are going to continue to have problems - unless their plan was to over compensate and what they are trying to do is even things out.



2) The rear axle has a weird toe - hardly any on one side and a lot of toe out on the other. I would think that means the vehicle would "wander" - as though the rear couldn't find a position to be in.



So can you tell us what the vehicle is currently doing?

The RV is a pleasure to drive. It tracts down the road just fine and doesn't wander. Very little to no correction needed to keep it straight on the road. I can feel the crown on some roads in that the steering wheel is just slightly off center if I go over the center line the wheel is dead on. This is not even a though on the freeway. No the only issue is the $3000.00 I have spent on the front end as mentioned earlier and the tire wear as I mentioned.

Getting ready for a trip that will put another few hundred miles on these new tires. I will be watching for this wear pattern with a new tread depth gage that I hope will be more accurate.
I will ask the shop about this Actual toe setting and see what it means thanks for the help on this issue.

[Trident]

Originally Posted by Trident

The RV is a pleasure to drive. It tracts down the road just fine and doesn't wander. Very little to no correction needed to keep it straight on the road. I can feel the crown on some roads in that the steering wheel is just slightly off center if I go over the center line the wheel is dead on. This is not even a though on the freeway. No the only issue is the $3000.00 I have spent on the front end as mentioned earlier and the tire wear as I mentioned.

Getting ready for a trip that will put another few hundred miles on these new tires. I will be watching for this wear pattern with a new tread depth gage that I hope will be more accurate.
I will ask the shop about this Actual toe setting and see what it means thanks for the help on this issue.

Back from our trip can't detect any difference side to side on the tire.
This new tread gage seems to be more accurate then what I had before. I will watch it on a Washington state to Ohio trip coming up soon and hope this last front end alignment and new tires does the trick.
Thanks to all for the help..