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Old 07-03-2012, 01:34 PM   #15
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1995 30' Cutter Bus LE
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Bill, you posted the block diagram for the whole coach, while what I posted was the schematic diagram which my friend Ziggy had developed (and discussed with CSA, the Canadian equivalent of UL). - blkmagikca
Thanks again for the schematic diagram from Ziggy.

I posted the block diagram because it shows two switch-over relays and I can only find one. I am just wondering if it is possible that I only have one with the set up I described in my post.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f312...ays-93062.html

Here is the diagram I posted:

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Old 07-04-2012, 12:17 AM   #16
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Bill, mine was a 94 LY - the ATS boxes were beside one another (3 inches apart). They were literally on the back side of the wall backing the the shore power's breaker box, which was on the street side of the queen bed. The boxes were kind of high up when you opened the rear panel where the radiator was. The '94 LY was built on a Spartan chassis.

Without seeing your coach, my guess would be to open the rear engine compartment and, using a flashlight, look high up on that rear wall. The boxes should be there. Try to envision where (from the outside) your breaker panel is and that should approximate the location of the ATS boxes.

A thought just occurred - they may have used one larger box to house the two ATS switches. If you can, open the box and take a photo of its interior. This would solve the riddle. I'm expecting a visit from Ziggy by the end of this week (I have a small project that I need his expertise in for my trailer). I can show him your posting and get his comments for you.

BTW, Bill - at the time I did the conversion I posted the details here http://www.airforums.com/forums/f160...tml#post220114
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Old 07-05-2012, 05:04 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by blkmagikca View Post
... I'm expecting a visit from Ziggy by the end of this week (I have a small project that I need his expertise in for my trailer). I can show him your posting and get his comments for you.

BTW, Bill - at the time I did the conversion I posted the details here http://www.airforums.com/forums/f160...tml#post220114
Thanks, I'll put the pictures up here and on my original thread. I feel bad about hi jacking this thread. So here's my original thread http://www.airforums.com/forums/f312...ays-93062.html

Your post "...30 to 50 amp..." was great. That "Trulyvintage" person is a piece of work

Thanks again, pictures coming.
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Old 07-05-2012, 06:28 PM   #18
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Here are the pictures of the components in our power locker.

These components are located on the aft wall of the street side aft locker (# 17):



These are the components:



From left to right, the Todd TS-30 Power switch (wiring diagram below), center, 30 amp Surge Guard, and on the right the 30 amp receptacle. You plug the shore power plug into this receptacle to get power from the generator.

From the owner's manual:
"Using the generator is very much like plugging into an external power source. Simply plug your power cord into the receptacle in the power cord storage compartment and the generator will provide operating current whenever it's running.

If you get: in the habit of plugging the cord into this receptacle when storing, your generator will always be ready to use."

Here is the diagram for the Todd TS-30 Power switch:



More follows...
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Old 07-05-2012, 08:14 PM   #19
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So I want to run both air conditioners when it gets real hot here in Florida this summer.

Here's how that used to work (from the Owner's Manual):

"AIR CONDITIONER
Because of the amount of power drawn by the air conditioners, it is only possible to operate one at a time when plugged into city power. A wall switch, located above the kitchen counter, allows you to operate either the front or rear air conditioner, but not both at the same time."

"Both air conditioners may be operated when the generator is running. Set the priority switch to the front air conditioner and it is powered through the normal circuit. The generator powers the rear air conditioner through a separate circuit."

Last year our old 5K Onan generator (5BGM) quit working and we had to replace it.

Cummins Onan could not fit the exact replacement in the space where the old generator was so we had to go with a smaller unit. We now have the Onan RV QG4000 (Model # 4KYFA-26100).

The new generator has only one 30 amp output. The old generator had two outputs, one 30 amp and one 20 amp.

The techs at Cummins tied both of the old output circuits together and connected them to the single output of the new generator. So now both air conditioners (and everything else) are powered by a single 30 amp supply.

That doesnít work.

Iím thinking I can ďuntieĒ the two circuits and run the old 20 amp leg to a second shore power line and run both air conditioners.
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Old 07-05-2012, 10:49 PM   #20
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you seem to have is a generator that only puts out 30-amps at 115-volts. If this is the case, then the ATS can only be a single 30-amp.

What the ATS does is delay the connection to the generator to make sure that the voltage has stabilized - the delay in the ATS is 60 seconds.

This is not the same as what I had in the '94 LY. I had a 6500-watt generator that put out 30-amps at 230-volts. There were 2 output circuits that were protected by breakers - one was 30-amps and the other was 20-amps. These breakers were on the right hand side of the generator. AS had designed this with 2 30-amp
ATS's but used only 30-amps of shore power. Our modification simply added the other 20-amp circuit using the existing components of the ATS switches.

BTW, when we changed the shore cable to the 4-wire one, we had to add another breaker (20-amp) which we mounted in one of the ATS boxes.

Thus the key factor is what is the output of the generator? Does it, in fact, put out 230-volts or only 115 volts. As well, do you have a switch to select front or back a/c?

If your generator only has a 115-volt output, then the best you can hope for is to revise the circuits to allow for 230-volt shore power connection. The danger is that the a/c selector switch (front/rear) would require being reworked to have it automatically disabled when you are plugged into "50-amps" - this would be accomplished using a relay which, when activated would disable that switch. This is a Ziggy issue, and I can ask him when he gets here tomorrow. However, we need to know first what is the output voltage of the genset.
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Old 07-06-2012, 08:55 AM   #21
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I guess I was't clear in my post.

Our rig was originally equipped (and wired for) a 6500-watt generator and there were 2 output circuits, one was 30-amps and the other was 20-amps.

And yes, we do have a switch to select front or back a/c.

As I posted, our old Onan generator (5BGM) quit working Last year and we had to replace it.

Cummins Onan could not fit the exact replacement in the space where the old generator was so we had to go with a smaller unit.

Now have the Onan RV QG4000 (Model # 4KYFA-26100).

The new generator has only one 30 amp output. The old generator had two outputs, one 30 amp and one 20 amp.

The techs at Cummins tied the old 30 amp and 20 amp output circuits together and connected them to the single output of the new generator. So now both air conditioners (and everything else) are powered by a single 30 amp supply.
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Old 07-06-2012, 11:57 AM   #22
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If all you have now is a 4KW genset then you will never be able to run both stock AC units reliably from either shore or genset power alone. Without a SHED feature you'll always risk both AC units trying to start at the same time. The surge will overwhelm the 30amp capacity of your shore power or (now downgraded) genset. I suppose you could tie shore power to one AC unit and allow the genset to run the other, but that's seems a little convoluted to me. If Cummins did the modification as you described, they did you a big disservice.

I would have fixed the old genset. Most gensets can be fixed for less then the cost of the newer units. The BGM is a better unit anyway. Good condition used 6.5KW or larger units, that will fit the space requirements of your RV, can be found for under $2000 all day long.
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Old 07-06-2012, 12:01 PM   #23
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Bill, I'll toss this at Ziggy - last I heard he'll be here for supper. As far as I can see, though, the only thing that you can do is change the shore power to 50-amp, but the genset will only output 115-volts @ 30 amps. The only modification I can see is some sort of relay that will activate when it sees a 50-amp connection (activates on the 20-amp portion) that will allow you to run both a/c's simultaneously. If this is what you want, I'll ask Ziggy to sketch the circuit and I could pm it to you.
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Old 07-06-2012, 12:02 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by 92landyacht View Post
If all you have now is a 4KW genset then you will never be able to run both stock AC units reliably from either shore or genset power alone. Without a SHED feature you'll always risk both AC units trying to start at the same time. The surge will overwhelm the 30amp capacity of your shore power or (now downgraded) genset. I suppose you could tie shore power to one AC unit and allow the genset to run the other, but that's seems a little convoluted to me. If Cummins did the modification as you described, they did you a big disservice.

I would have fixed the old genset. Most gensets can be fixed for less then the cost of the newer units. The BGM is a better unit anyway. Good condition used 6.5KW or larger units, that will fit the space requirements of your RV, can be found for under $2000 all day long.
I agree!!
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Old 07-07-2012, 07:21 AM   #25
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I agree with you guys. I think Cummins screwed us. They sold me on the new generator by telling me it would cost the same to repair the old one with a 90 day warranty as to buy a new one with a 2 year warranty. I never used both AC units on the old generator so it sounded good to me.

I will just try to figure out how to run a separate shore power for the second AC unit...

I
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Old 07-07-2012, 09:31 AM   #26
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What did you do with the old genset? I love repairing those units. Just curious.
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Old 07-07-2012, 04:41 PM   #27
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Bill, Ziggy read over the post and he said that with the current configuration you have (30-amp shore power, 30-amp ATS & 4KW genset), your options are:

1 - swap out the 4KW genset for one that is 5500-watts or more that outputs 30 amps at 230-volts; then use the schematic which he had prepared for me to rewire the ATS adding the additional switching for the 20-amp leg of the circuit; or

2 - continue using the 30-amp 115-volt genset, and add the additional 20-amp leg to the shore power - in which case you will need to add a 3-pole double throw contact relay certified to run 50 amps. The circuit wiring will have to be modified to use that relay to protect the 20-amp leg from shorting out the 30-amp leg if the A/B switch for selecting the air-conditioner is in the "B" mode when the shore power is plugged in.

Personally, I would go back to Cummins and raise royal hell over their guidance and sale in this instance. You could show them a copy of this posting (with the comments from others who have read it) and suggest that they cut a deal with you to install the proper genset. I'm assuming, as well, that the original genset was propane powered, but would suggest that you consider going with a diesel powered one. You might also indicate to Cummins that you would accept a previously owned genset provided that they gave you some warranty with it.

When I had my '94 LY moho, I serviced it with Cummins. Their service was ok provided that they assigned one of the mechanics who had experience with the older models. The newbie mechanics did good work on the latest models, but the 1993-built one in my moho drew a total blank (the newbie mechanic wasn't even able to adjust the idle because he had no knowledge or training on the Bosch mechanical injector pump). Overall, Cummins service was not what it should have been. At one time they told me that the rear engine seal was leaking, but they didn't want to do the work at their shop because they didn't want to drop the transmission to get to the seal. So they sent me to a shop around the corner who serviced Allison, Mercedes, Cat, Detroit Diesel (all these for warranty work), and they did the job. Cummins didn't provide them with the correct gasket for the connection to the turbo charger and for two weeks my rig sat in the garage until they sorted out what was the correct gasket. Harper Power, who did the work, was annoyed that their bay was tied up due to Cummins' inability to provide them with the correct parts.

Anyhow, the moho is history, and while my tow vehicle is a Dodge with a Cummins engine, it is serviced at a Dodge dealership.
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Old 07-08-2012, 07:26 AM   #28
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Cummins Onan kept it...
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