Useful Speed Trap Info

[Smartstream]

While on the subject and with the knowledgeable people here can somebody explain why it is so unsafe for an officer to be on the side of with his lights flashing that we must slow down and move to the next lane? I understand that people/drivers do not pay attention and the risk of injury is real. The thing that I don't understand is why the same officer in the same place with his radar gun does not warrant the same safety consideration? If any officer at the side of the road had his lights flashing we would all slow down and everybody would be safer. Isn't that really the goal here? Or is this where the revenue issue raises it's ugly head?

Along the same line of thought it is illegal in most states, mine included, to use a handheld cell phone. However there is an exception for law enforcement. Somehow when they pin the badge on they are better at driving with one hand than we are. Somehow the common sense of these laws confuses me.

[Steamguy]

This post is hopefully back to the spirit of the original thread...

When driving up the coast of Washington State, you will drive through an area owned by the Shoalwater Tribe. Yes, this land is sovereign. The speed limit goes suddenly from 55 to 35.

And there is a Brand New Dodge Charger patrol car on their side of that sign.

Guess how they paid for it...!

On the positive side, though: their gas prices are 20¢ off what you will find on either side of tribal land.

[21Airstream]

Originally Posted by sajohnson

Since we're on the subject, shouldn't the signs say:



"Slow down and move left for ANY vehicle on the shoulder"?



That's what we do.



Everyone deserves that courtesy.

I guess that’s up to the Legislature, they’re the people that enact the laws.

In some respects, laws are just a minimum standard of conduct. You don’t really have to wait until five cars are behind you to pull over (in a safe location) when you’re driving under the speed limit. You can merge away (when possible) from ANY vehicle stopped on the shoulder.

[sajohnson]

Originally Posted by 21Airstream

I guess that’s up to the Legislature, they’re the people that enact the laws.

In some respects, laws are just a minimum standard of conduct. You don’t really have to wait until five cars are behind you to pull over (in a safe location) when you’re driving under the speed limit. You can merge away (when possible) from ANY vehicle stopped on the shoulder.

Exactly!

If more people followed the Golden Rule we could eliminate a lot of laws.

[sajohnson]

Originally Posted by Smartstream

While on the subject and with the knowledgeable people here can somebody explain why it is so unsafe for an officer to be on the side of with his lights flashing that we must slow down and move to the next lane? I understand that people/drivers do not pay attention and the risk of injury is real. The thing that I don't understand is why the same officer in the same place with his radar gun does not warrant the same safety consideration? If any officer at the side of the road had his lights flashing we would all slow down and everybody would be safer. Isn't that really the goal here? Or is this where the revenue issue raises it's ugly head?

Along the same line of thought it is illegal in most states, mine included, to use a handheld cell phone. However there is an exception for law enforcement. Somehow when they pin the badge on they are better at driving with one hand than we are. Somehow the common sense of these laws confuses me.

You sound like a troublemaker Dan.

Here in MD the state police used to run speed enforcement operations on I-70 and I-270 that involved them walking out into the middle of the Interstate with traffic barreling toward them and flagging people over. Sometimes they were not even wearing safety vests! Their dark uniforms blended right into the blacktop. That was a clear example of revenue taking precedence over officer and civilian safety. I witnessed multiple close calls because drivers would not see the cop until the last second and then freak out and slam on the brakes. Some would come to a stop in the middle of a travel lane. It was a fiasco.

There is definitely a lot of "do as I say, not as I do". On two different occasions, I had LEOs tell me that they had the *right* to break the law (disregard traffic laws). One, a MSP trooper, said the fact that he graduated from the academy allowed him to disobey traffic laws. The other, a Montgomery County officer, told me that he was shot in the leg in the line of duty, and therefore he was above the law.

Both felt that the laws should apply only to civilians.

I mentioned in an earlier post that the MoCo police would routinely run 80-90+ mph in a 55 on I-270 (no emergency equipment operating). I drove up and down that road for 27 years and witnessed that on a regular basis -- almost every day.

I worked evening shift and got off work at 11 pm. For a few month period, every few days (sometimes a couple days in a row) I was passed by the same MSP cruiser along the same stretch of I-270. Every single time he was doing at least 95-100 mph -- at night, no lights, no siren. He would get caught behind traffic and *not* turn on his light bar. It was clear -- especially after it happened several times -- that it was not official business or a "silent response". He was just driving that way because he could.

The other thing that was common was to see LEOs driving with a cell phone clamped to their ear -- after that had been made illegal.

To be fair to police officers in general, DW and I have noticed much less illegal behavior by cops in the more "relaxed" rural areas of the country. It seems to be an East Coast phenomenon, or maybe it's urban areas in general.

[Kota]

36 between Denver and Boulder was a real demolition derby. Somewhat improved the last few years I lived there by adding lanes and safety enhancements. Still lots of aggressive driving and tension during the commuting hours. When do the cops run their revenue programs? Sunday mornings between 8 and noon. But only if the weather is nice. I generally drove to work on Sunday mornings. Amazing how many cars would be stopped on 36 and the toll road out to DIA. They loved to hide out at the bottom of the big decent into Boulder behind the overpass right where the speed limit reduces. No change in the road. Just the speed limit.

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by Smartstream

While on the subject and with the knowledgeable people here can somebody explain why it is so unsafe for an officer to be on the side of with his lights flashing that we must slow down and move to the next lane? I understand that people/drivers do not pay attention and the risk of injury is real. The thing that I don't understand is why the same officer in the same place with his radar gun does not warrant the same safety consideration? If any officer at the side of the road had his lights flashing we would all slow down and everybody would be safer. Isn't that really the goal here? Or is this where the revenue issue raises it's ugly head?

Along the same line of thought it is illegal in most states, mine included, to use a handheld cell phone. However there is an exception for law enforcement. Somehow when they pin the badge on they are better at driving with one hand than we are. Somehow the common sense of these laws confuses me.

It’s because the use of a phone or computer is necessary to do their jobs. Cameras and GPS are in most police vehicles, and body worn also, so don’t worry about them getting away with something you can’t do. And if you can’t drive today’s vehicles with one hand it’s probably time for a driver review meeting.

The move-over laws specifically applies to vehicles with emergency lighting activated such as fire and police vehicles, tow trucks and courtesy vehicles. An emergency scene is treated differently than a stationary vehicle in non-emergency mode. This is why I wish people would drive to an exit to change a tire. Many people (including those who stop to “help”) are killed each week on the roadside when the vehicle is perfectly driveable to the exit.

Unfortunately people insist on following at half a car length these days which makes it difficult to give a lane but it’s not worth 15 years so you best allow enough following distance because I’ll be moving over.

[FishByFly]

Thanks to all you Wazers! All your posts help us travelers that are unfamiliar with the road ahead. Please keep connected.

[wimpy]

Originally Posted by sajohnson

I was passed by the same MSP cruiser along the same stretch of I-270. Every single time he was doing at least 95-100 mph -- at night, no lights, no siren. He would get caught behind traffic and *not* turn on his light bar. It was clear -- especially after it happened several times -- that it was not official business or a "silent response". He was just driving that way because he could.

I decided to start this thread & post the NMA info after seeing a prime example of speed limits as a revenue tool. My background, ex-SCCA Showroom Stock racer, certified to teach AAA's Driver Improvement Program, unsuccessful in attempting to start a teen driving school (simply too soon), have been a professional limousine driver since 99 & have owned a limo company since 01.

Our AAA instructor in 1998, "it's safest if you drive with prevailing traffic, even if that means exceeding the speed limit." NMA has been crusading to see speed laws set using 85th percentile speeds.

In both cases cited in the original post, the LEOs were hidden, #1 over the crest of a hill, #2 at the base of a hill. In both instances, 4 lane, planted median, with no signs of human occupation (buffers on either side hiding residential or industrial-no pedestrians or bicycles) posted at 35mph...in Charlotte they would be posted at 45 or 55mph. #2 LEO had the most lucrative spot since you had to stay on the brakes to avoid speeding.

In 2011 or so, 2:45 AM, northbound in a limo with 9 clients on I-77, next to the hammer lane just past the crest of a hill closing on a slower moving semi, NC SHP Dodge Charger blew by me @ 140+, no siren or blue light. Had I moved left to pass a few seconds earlier, we would have made the headlines along with the trooper. Charlotte has had numerous LEO fatalities due to excessive speeds including a family of 4 returning home after an evening out.

[FishByFly]

Originally Posted by Countryboy59

It’s because the use of a phone or computer is necessary to do their jobs. Cameras and GPS are in most police vehicles, and body worn also, so don’t worry about them getting away with something you can’t do. And if you can’t drive today’s vehicles with one hand it’s probably time for a driver review meeting.

Okay. I don’t typically don’t address posters’ commentary posts as these are well within their rights. “use of a phone...is necessary” for my work too. However, the legal system does not view that as an exception. Neither should persons with the responsibility of public safety. They have access to hands-free equipment like the rest of us and should use it. Be good examples and not exceptions.

“don’t worry about them getting away with something you can’t do” is a great example of concerns with some law enforcement personnel. No one is above the law; even those who have the responsibility of enforcement.

[featherbedder]

Because speed traps got a little off to cell phones, it's not about driving one handed but not paying attention to driving . I have witnessed 2 dif. fatal crashes caused by cell phone users or texting, and many accidents, and stop sign violations, and erratic driving while using cell phones or texting, but many still do. Yes I have seen many times Le hidden doing speed checks for revenue as mandated by there bosses. Even 1 town six miles from city limits on state highway doing radar. This is a city cop in town in Kendall county Il. only thing I can say sits at bottom of long down hill in plain view and only place to pass for 6 miles. Yes I do speed 5 over but drive defensely and only when conditions are favorable. One more thing so many run stop signs. Drunk drivers should lose lic. and be prosecuted to full extent, if caught again mandatory prison time no exceptions....

[WayneG]

Originally Posted by FishByFly

Thanks to all you Wazers! All your posts help us travelers that are unfamiliar with the road ahead. Please keep connected.

I have been using Waze for a year and love it. Not worried about my speed 60MPH suits me fine in a 65 zone. I look for construction and other warnings, Waze does well with that

[FishByFly]

Agree about Waze. Helps on road debris, potholes, stopped vehicles, etc. All things that help to have a bit of response time...I know. Moving this away from the subject.

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by FishByFly

Okay. I don’t typically don’t address posters’ commentary posts as these are well within their rights. “use of a phone...is necessary” for my work too. However, the legal system does not view that as an exception. Neither should persons with the responsibility of public safety. They have access to hands-free equipment like the rest of us and should use it. Be good examples and not exceptions.

“don’t worry about them getting away with something you can’t do” is a great example of concerns with some law enforcement personnel. No one is above the law; even those who have the responsibility of enforcement.

Our officers are pretty careful when and where they use a phone. I know in today’s climate phone use is bad and should be punished and enforcing every other violation (like speeding and running red lights) is a revenue grab and should be given a “pass” so maybe I’ll just keep quiet and let you all carry on with your extensive knowledge of police work.

Feel free to ride along sometime at night and you will learn even more about how angelic most drivers are.

[jcl]

And sometimes some officers aren't. At least this one admitted his fault.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoSOEtzWPlU

[sajohnson]

Originally Posted by jcl

And sometimes some officers aren't. At least this one admitted his fault.

The guy on the bike is very lucky he wasn't severely injured or killed.

It would be interesting to learn what the consequences were (if any) for the officer vs what a civilian would typically face.

[21Airstream]

Any responsible agency has a Collision Review Board convened to review Patrol Vehicle collisions.

In many states LE are exempt from Cell Phone restrictions (but a lot of agencies make it a violation of department policy. No excuse for anyone, to include LE to be so distracted that they drive on the wrong side of the road.

Years ago when I was promoted to Sergeant, my patrol car had a hardwired cell phone installed in it (used for company business only). I found that in order to focus on the conversation it was just easier to pull over in a safe location. (Maybe I have a problem multi-tasking but I was accountable for every decision I made and everything I said). Some might say hands-free is the way to go but that still requires divided attention.

[sajohnson]

Originally Posted by 21Airstream

Any responsible agency has a Collision Review Board convened to review Patrol Vehicle collisions.

In many states LE are exempt from Cell Phone restrictions (but a lot of agencies make it a violation of department policy. No excuse for anyone, to include LE to be so distracted that they drive on the wrong side of the road.

Years ago when I was promoted to Sergeant, my patrol car had a hardwired cell phone installed in it (used for company business only). I found that in order to focus on the conversation it was just easier to pull over in a safe location. (Maybe I have a problem multi-tasking but I was accountable for every decision I made and everything I said). Some might say hands-free is the way to go but that still requires divided attention.

Absolutely correct.

More recently, I've read that the idea of "multi-tasking" is a myth. Some people convince themselves that they can do two or more things at once, but unless one is essentially mindless (like chewing gum) what is actually happening is that the brain is shifting focus from one activity to another -- not performing them simultaneously.

I prefer to do one thing at a time also. When I was still commuting on I-70 and I-270, I had to devote all of my attention to driving. I did have a CB radio, but that is more passive -- mostly listening. Any 'conversation' was very brief.

It's been proven that hands-free conversations are almost as distracting as handheld. I certainly find that to be true.

I will say that a lot depends on the situation. The D.C. area roads are one thing. A deserted highway through the rural Midwest or West is another. Driving in a major metro area usually requires the driver's undivided attention and frequent split-second decision making. Driving in rural areas is usually more relaxed. That's not to say that a driver can kick back and play video games on their phone, but at least they aren't surrounded by crazed, distracted, road ragers.

The other thing to keep in mind is that while the focus lately has been on cellphones and texting, there are all sorts of things people do while driving that are distracting:

* Reading
* Looking at a map/GPS
* Eating
* Drinking
* Changing clothes (yes, that happens)
* Fooling around with the stereo and other electronic devices
* Shaving
* Applying makeup
* Yelling at the kids in the back
* Even having a conversation with the front seat passeenger

The bottom line is, there are many things that can be distracting, and distracted driving qualifies as negligent driving -- and may rise to the level of reckless.

[Mollysdad]

Once while driving up our major 4-6 lane major surface road, I was behind a BMW. As the light turned green, everyone left, except him. As I passed I saw him reading the newspaper, sitting at the green light in the passing lane.

[sajohnson]

Originally Posted by Mollysdad

Once while driving up our major 4-6 lane major surface road, I was behind a BMW. As the light turned green, everyone left, except him. As I passed I saw him reading the newspaper, sitting at the green light in the passing lane.

Yep, that sounds about right.

One of my former coworkers was a real by the book guy. On the way to work one day (in his brand new Miata) he was rear-ended. The at-fault driver was apologetic and explained that the reason he plowed into my coworker was that he did not expect him to actually *stop* at the stop sign!

In Montgomery County it was/is(?) routine for drivers -- including the county police -- to make "rolling stops" at stop signs and when turning right on red.

A while back it came out that there were a bunch of speed camera tickets issued to marked MoCo cruisers. Some were on a call but most were not. The officers that were simply cruising were told they had to pay up. They refused. Their union got involved. There was a big fight over it. Last I heard the cops had prevailed and did not have to pay, even though there was absolutely no excuse for their behavior.

The cameras are set to allow 11-12 mph over before they take a photo, and many of the tickets came from cameras near schools.