Useful Speed Trap Info

[Lara Me]

Thanks for the online database of traps

[Lara Me]

Originally Posted by Steamguy

This post is hopefully back to the spirit of the original thread...



When driving up the coast of Washington State, you will drive through an area owned by the Shoalwater Tribe. Yes, this land is sovereign. The speed limit goes suddenly from 55 to 35.



And there is a Brand New Dodge Charger patrol car on their side of that sign.



Guess how they paid for it...!.

Casino revenue?

But seriously, same issue just outside of La Conner WA where you pass through a tribal section where the speed limit is a tedious 25mph solely for revenue generation by the tribe.

[21Airstream]

I’m not sure Tribal Police have jurisdiction over non-Tribal members. The Oliphant decision (SCOTUS) made that clear. Has anything changed? (Maybe we have an Attorney member here? His/Her input is welcome!)

I do know that State & County LE cannot issue Civil Infractions to tribal members on the reservation, even if it’s on a State Route.

Unless the Tribal Police carry a County or State commission, I’m not sure they have any jurisdiction over you.

[sajohnson]

Originally Posted by 21Airstream

I’m not sure Tribal Police have jurisdiction over non-Tribal members. The Oliphant decision (SCOTUS) made that clear. Has anything changed? (Maybe we have an Attorney member here? His/Her input is welcome!)

I do know that State & County LE cannot issue Civil Infractions to tribal members on the reservation, even if it’s on a State Route.

Unless the Tribal Police carry a County or State commission, I’m not sure they have any jurisdiction over you.

Very interesting. I'd never heard that before. I always figured we were at their mercy.

So what happens if a non-Tribal member breaks the law on a reservation?

Some info:

https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=75

https://www.greatfallstribune.com/st...ions/29304969/

Sounds like the answer is that the Tribal Police can stop & detain, but generally they let the non-member go with a warning because county or state police can issue citations and it can take a long time for them to arrive.

[SnowWanderer]

Really? You call speed traps 'revenue enhancements'!? Outrageous. They are not attempts to generate 'revenue', they are attempts to prevent having to make a death notification to your family.

They are attempts to prevent your children from becoming orphans.... or you to lose a child... or grandparent...or niece, nephew, cousin, aunt, uncle...... .

They are attempts to eliminate the need for Firemen to hose blood, body fluids and pieces too small to collect for the body bag, into the ditch.

They are attempts to remind you that people are killed in vehicle crashes, often where excessive speed has increased the devastation, up to several times an hour...every day of the year.

Until you have located and then placed the traumatically severed body part of a child into a body bag, you have no clue how important traffic enforcement is.

Do you realize that a vehicle crash, especially a fatal one, is considered a crime scene? A crime scene where unlawful actors can be arrested and imprisoned... sometimes for years? Speeding can become an element that sends you to prison.

I spent decades 'picking up the big pieces' while investigating crashes, working in EMS, law enforcement and crime scene investigation.

It is not difficult to obey the traffic laws.... many responsible drivers do. Those that don't, tend to be the ones that worry and complain about speed 'traps'. Don't look at them as 'traps', but rather reminders that there are dangerous drivers out there.... and it is the cops job to stop them before they kill you or someone else. Seriously.

Still not convinced? Volunteer on a local rescue unit or ambulance. Go pick up some 'big pieces'. Zip a few body bags. Hose the gore into the ditch. Make some death notifications.

Now some of you may complain about my 'big pieces' description. Too bad. Face reality. People literally get ripped apart in vehicle crashes. If you ever have seen what's left of a deer carcass just after it has been smeared across the pavement, keep in mind that people look the exact same way. I can personally attest to that....I have picked up countless big pieces and made death notifications and zipped the body bags. Accepting and complying with traffic enforcement, rather than condemning it, is the first step in reducing crashes.

[PecanMan5]

In GA, I say it is all about revenue. The Cook county Sheriff proudly told me that he has pulled in 2 Million in one year. The little town of Lenox, population of 800 managed 4 new cruisers a couple of years ago. These locals on the interstates are not catching the crazies, just the speeders. One excuse for the locals on the interstates is to catch drugs. That's correct, because a drug bust means the county gets all the assets in the arrest.
PS: Not a speeder, just I do not like the reputation of being a speed trap state, but we are!

[sajohnson]

There is no single, set, speed limit that is correct for any stretch of road -- let alone all drivers and all vehicles.

If common sense were more common and more people followed the Golden Rule when driving we would need very few traffic laws.

In fact, years ago, several states had no limit other than "reasonable and prudent". The problem with that is:

* Some people are unable to judge what is reasonable & prudent.
* It is hard to prosecute a reckless driver if there is no firm limit.

So, by default, we have posted speed limits. They are treated by some as a magical velocity -- anyone traveling at or below that speed is a righteous, responsible citizen, anyone traveling over that speed is a frothing at the mouth maniac.

Sometimes that is accurate, however:

* There are plenty of scenarios where driving at or just below the limit may be dangerous -- ice & snow, heavy rain, fog, construction, etc.

* There are people who studiously obey the speed limit but: do not maintain their vehicle, drive an older vehicle that is not very safe at high speeds (let alone in a wreck), talk on their phone, text, eat their lunch, shave, apply makeup, etc. IOW, yes, they are obeying the speed limit but they are a danger to themselves and others.

* It's not common, but the limits on some roads (at least in our area) are set too high.

* There are drivers who recognize that many rural limited access highways are under-posted. Not in their lead-foot opinion but based on solid civil engineering standards like the "85th percentile speed". Many highways are posted well below what a responsible civil engineer would recommend.

Those drivers further understand that there are a multitude of factors that enter into determining what is reasonable and prudent.

They realize that it is absurd for all limited access highways to have the same (or similar) posted limits all across the country -- whether it is in suburban areas of Maryland or wide-open areas of Kansas and Colorado.

In short, most traffic laws are reasonable and should normally be followed, but the intent of those laws is to keep everyone safe. Sometimes, disregarding a law is perfectly safe and appropriate. For example:

A driver stops at a red light late at night. She waits a couple minutes but the light doesn't change. She waits a few minutes more. All the other lights are flashing. There is no traffic. What should she do? Backing up is illegal, so is going thru a solid red. Most reasonable people would say that she should look both directions to confirm there are no vehicles approaching and cautiously proceed thru the intersection. "Illegal"? Yes. Reasonable? Absolutely.

[wimpy]

Originally Posted by SnowWanderer

Really? You call speed traps 'revenue enhancements'!? Outrageous. They are not attempts to generate 'revenue', they are attempts to prevent having to make a death notification to your family...
Accepting and complying with traffic enforcement, rather than condemning it, is the first step in reducing crashes.

Thanks for noting the potentially gruesome negative consequences of traffic crashes. LEOs & first responders have a tough job.

The original intent was to inform drivers of the potential for LEOs to follow orders & set up speed traps, typically not where there are/have been traffic crashes/injuries/deaths, but simply as a means of generating revenue for the governing entity. The vast majority are on minor roads within city/town limits, seldom set up during inclement weather, most typically involving speeds ≤35mph.

If aware of a Lidar/radar location, most drivers comply with the posted limit assuming the signs are visible & there is time to react, so we're encouraging drivers to obey speed limits.

Also, while I'm aware injuries & fatalities can occur at speeds ≤35, statistics indicate most of these involve alcohol, i.e., drunk driver running thru a red light, early AM drowsy driver falling asleep, etc.

[SnowWanderer]

Wimpy. The reason that most enforcement areas are on secondary roads is because the majority of fatal crashes occur on secondary roads and not highways!

The enforcement zones don't focus solely on speed violations; there are many other potentially deadly violations out there!

Many people don't realize that 40 percent of the children struck and killed by vehicles occured in 25 mile per hour zones.... the vehicle that struck them averaged 11 to 13 miles per hour over the speed limit.

[sajohnson]

It's safe to say that very few people complain about traffic law enforcement that is truly safety related.

No one wants people blowing through school zones at 50 mph or running red lights while texting.

I thought the following definition of a 'speed trap' from the NMA would be helpful:

"When most people think about speed traps, they think about police hiding behind billboards or waiting to pick off motorists right where the speed limit changes.

However, there is a broader, more accurate definition that covers these situations and more:

A speed trap exists wherever traffic enforcement is focused on extracting revenue from drivers instead of improving safety, made possible by speed limits posted below the prevailing flow of traffic."

https://www.motorists.org/issues/spe...ps/definition/

Clearly, not every speeding ticket is the result of a speed trap.

However, many roads are under-posted (below the civil engineering standard "85th percentile speed). Where that is the case, if people miss a speed limit sign and continue to travel at a reasonable & prudent speed they will likely be breaking the law.

What most people object to is not routine enforcement, but receiving a ticket for 35 or 40 in a 25 mph zone (which they were unaware of, or the speed limit dropped very quickly), when anywhere else in America the road they are on would be posted at 45 or 50 mph. That sort of scenario.

DW and I take a lot of secondary roads and to be fair, the vast majority of towns have the speed limit very clearly posted. Often it will decrease in 10 mph increments with plenty of warning and adequate room between zones to slow at a gradual rate.

It seems that speed traps are not as common as they once were, but they are still out there.

[21Airstream]

Originally Posted by sajohnson

... A driver stops at a red light late at night. She waits a couple minutes but the light doesn't change. She waits a few minutes more. All the other lights are flashing. There is no traffic. What should she do? Backing up is illegal, so is going thru a solid red. Most reasonable people would say that she should look both directions to confirm there are no vehicles approaching and cautiously proceed thru the intersection. "Illegal"? Yes. Reasonable? Absolutely.

In 2015, Washington state passed a law making this legal for “bicycles, mopeds, & street driven motorcycles” (RCW 46.61.184), a step in the right direction.

I think we all understand the importance of rules but the rules need to be reasonable. Back when the national speed limit was 55, most states enforced it or lost federal funding. Yet the public knew most highways were designed for 65-75 mph speeds and believed the enforcement of the 55 was about generating revenue. Fortunately the law was changed in 1995 (a reasonable change, IMHO).

[HeadWest]

Originally Posted by SnowWanderer

Really? You call speed traps 'revenue enhancements'!? Outrageous. They are not attempts to generate 'revenue', they are attempts to prevent having to make a death notification to your family.

Do you really believe there are no speed traps that are set up strictly for generating revenue and nothing to do with safety?

Enforcement zones to enhance safety have nothing to do a true speed trap.

[wimpy]

Originally Posted by 21Airstream

I think we all understand the importance of rules but the rules need to be reasonable. Back when the national speed limit was 55, most states enforced it or lost federal funding. Yet the public knew most highways were designed for 65-75 mph speeds and believed the enforcement of the 55 was about generating revenue. Fortunately the law was changed in 1995 (a reasonable change, IMHO).

IMHO, the "energy saving" 55 mph nationwide is largely responsible for creating a nation of scofflaws when it comes to adherence to posted interstate speed limits. As children grew up seeing parents routinely ignore those limits, it continues unabated.

In your heart, after gas prices returned to normal levels, you knew the principal reason for maintaining the low speed limit was for revenue. The government entity & insurance companies reaped the revenue stream & the NHTSA was able to justify its existence abated by the IIHS. After 1995, when the predicted thousands of deaths didn't materialize, remember "road rage"? Fabricated by NHTSA to justify continued existence at prior funding levels.

I am NOT saying "road rage" didn't exist.

[WayneG]

My first speeding ticket "in a speed trap" was over 45 years ago on Rt 2 in Mass.

Mass is strange on how they mark their roads, instead of a constant speed limit, with speed advisory signs for curves and such, they post various speed limit signs instead. So Rt 2 signs go from 55 all the way down to 30, and if you are going by Leominster, Mass, there is a curve with a 40 MPH sign and usually a pair of local cops there waiting for you. One to flag you in and a second to do the paperwork. I was 3rd in line for my ticket.


I have only had one other speeding ticket since then. Back in the late 70's when I was in the AF, trying to calibrate the new digital speedometer in my 67 ElCamino outside Las Vegas. No sense of humor in those Boys

It is not to say I always do the speed limit these days, I do in the Motorhome, but in the car, if everyone on the Mass Pike is going 80, I go 80 also, otherwise I may be the cause of a accident for not going with the flow.

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by Mollysdad

Once while driving up our major 4-6 lane major surface road, I was behind a BMW. As the light turned green, everyone left, except him. As I passed I saw him reading the newspaper, sitting at the green light in the passing lane.

Today on the work I slowed for a yellow light. Two drivers had been passing each other several times and I saw them coming up to the light. As the light turned red ( I was stopped) both deliberately ran the red at high speed. I sounded my horn just in time to stop a motorcyclist who had begun moving when his light turned green. Neither of these idiots was on the phone; they were just in a hurry to get through a light. And people in my area complain about high insurance costs. I don’t think they’re high enough.

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by SnowWanderer

Really? You call speed traps 'revenue enhancements'!? Outrageous. They are not attempts to generate 'revenue', they are attempts to prevent having to make a death notification to your family.

They are attempts to prevent your children from becoming orphans.... or you to lose a child... or grandparent...or niece, nephew, cousin, aunt, uncle...... .

They are attempts to eliminate the need for Firemen to hose blood, body fluids and pieces too small to collect for the body bag, into the ditch.

They are attempts to remind you that people are killed in vehicle crashes, often where excessive speed has increased the devastation, up to several times an hour...every day of the year.

Until you have located and then placed the traumatically severed body part of a child into a body bag, you have no clue how important traffic enforcement is.

Do you realize that a vehicle crash, especially a fatal one, is considered a crime scene? A crime scene where unlawful actors can be arrested and imprisoned... sometimes for years? Speeding can become an element that sends you to prison.

I spent decades 'picking up the big pieces' while investigating crashes, working in EMS, law enforcement and crime scene investigation.

It is not difficult to obey the traffic laws.... many responsible drivers do. Those that don't, tend to be the ones that worry and complain about speed 'traps'. Don't look at them as 'traps', but rather reminders that there are dangerous drivers out there.... and it is the cops job to stop them before they kill you or someone else. Seriously.

Still not convinced? Volunteer on a local rescue unit or ambulance. Go pick up some 'big pieces'. Zip a few body bags. Hose the gore into the ditch. Make some death notifications.

Now some of you may complain about my 'big pieces' description. Too bad. Face reality. People literally get ripped apart in vehicle crashes. If you ever have seen what's left of a deer carcass just after it has been smeared across the pavement, keep in mind that people look the exact same way. I can personally attest to that....I have picked up countless big pieces and made death notifications and zipped the body bags. Accepting and complying with traffic enforcement, rather than condemning it, is the first step in reducing crashes.

Excellent post. But they will not get it. “When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail”.

I have a scrapbook but won’t share it here. I can still see some of the scenes like it was yesterday.