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Old 06-23-2010, 02:01 PM   #15
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FYI, Jammer.
I have the stickers clearly stating that the system is filled with ES12 on all my cars that have it.
As I have pointed out, I use it, and have had good results, and its legal to use, and many thousands of people buy and use it every day. Why would I not bring it to the attention of forum members?

You have pointed out the pitfalls, given your opinion and I have been respectful.

I find the link you posted interesting and disturbing at the same time, yet the title speaks volumes, as the first recorded incident. I am sure its not the only one nor the last one, but come on!
Engine fires are common, in fact I had a belt shred on one of my ES12 fitted trucks a month ago, causing the belt to chop off the main generator belt, welding the loose end to the bracket and causing a lot of smoke and a small fire. Did the truck explode because I have ES12.... no.
Your comment about welding in the same bay as a Tech working on an ES12 filled system is also interesting... What kind of moron welds ANYTHING in a shop where there is other people working on engines... say much more commonly the other guy is changing a fuel filter... Gasoline is heavier than air too, and there is far more of it floating around in most shops...

You clearly have a bee in you bonnet about ES12, and I kinda see why, but lets be realistic about the risks.
You can post again, and I am sure you want the last word, but respectfully, I am done with the discussion.
All I wanted to do was to pass on my good experiences with a product, as I have a right to do.
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Old 06-23-2010, 03:07 PM   #16
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I disagree that ES12 is legal to use. I quote from the EPA web site:

Quote:
May hydrocarbon refrigerants be used to replace CFC-12, commonly referred to as "FreonŽ ," in cars?
No. It is illegal to use hydrocarbon refrigerants like HC-12aŽ and DURACOOL 12aŽ as substitutes for CFC-12 in automobile or truck air conditioning under any circumstances.

[....snip....]

[In addition to the federal regulations,] EPA is aware that the following states prohibit the use of flammable refrigerants in automobile air conditioners: Arkansas, Arizona, Connecticut, Florida, Idaho, Iowa, Indiana, Kansas, Louisiana, Maryland, Nebraska, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, Wisconsin, and the District of Columbia.
If your point is that there is a lack of effective enforcement, I would agree, though due to the state laws this is starting to change.

Quote:
I find the link you posted interesting and disturbing at the same time, yet the title speaks volumes, as the first recorded incident.
Bear in mind that the article I posted is dated 2004, shortly after these products started to be popular due to the price spike for R-12 (New cars made in 1994 and later used R-134a, and production of R-12 stopped at the end of 1996. Prices peaked several years later and then came down as the amount of refrigerant being recovered from scrapped pre-1994 cars and other sources exceeded the demand; also, the cost of switching to R-134a declined as service techs became more comfortable and started replacing fewer parts).

There is, as far as I know, no tracking and reporting of fires or explosions involving propane refrigerants, so we have no idea how widespread such events are. I will note, however, that a casual google search shows that such accidents are common in Australia, where the use of propane refrigerants is more widespread particularly in industrial settings. Many of these have resulted in fatalities.

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I have the stickers clearly stating that the system is filled with ES12 on all my cars that have it.
I would be surprised to learn that these stickers clearly identify the hazard. You, yourself, were under the impression that this is a non-flammable product, and have seen the stickers as well as whatever else Envirosafe includes with the package. How would a service technician know the risks?

Quote:
Engine fires are common, in fact I had a belt shred on one of my ES12 fitted trucks a month ago, causing the belt to chop off the main generator belt, welding the loose end to the bracket and causing a lot of smoke and a small fire. Did the truck explode because I have ES12.... no.
Your comment about welding in the same bay as a Tech working on an ES12 filled system is also interesting... What kind of moron welds ANYTHING in a shop where there is other people working on engines... say much more commonly the other guy is changing a fuel filter... Gasoline is heavier than air too, and there is far more of it floating around in most shops...
The problem is one of awareness. I know quite a few people who weld in a shared service bay where adjacent technicians are performing air conditioning work. Technicians understand the hazards of gasoline. They do not expect a refrigerant leak to pose comparable hazards. ES12 does not contain a universally recognizable odorant and so the gas can accumulate without warning signs. With gasoline, leaks are visible, and you can smell them.

Quote:
You clearly have a bee in you bonnet about ES12
I have a bee in my bonnet about ES12 and similar products being distributed without a clear acknowledgment of the risks. It's a mixture of propane and butane. Propane and butane ignite readily and will burn or explode. Ignition sources are constantly present in car interiors (brushes on the blower motor, for example), and if this stuff leaks out of the evaporator, it may ignite or even explode. Smart people, like you, are using the product without understanding that, because the true nature of the product is being glossed over.

I believe that the environmental hazards posed by R-12 have been exaggerated. The damage to the ozone layer, and its recovery, is mainly a story about bromine compounds, methyl bromide chief among them. The effect of CFCs, while significant, was small by comparison, and not enough to justify the regulatory hysteria. Getting the R-12 (well, propellant-12, but chemically it's the same stuff) out of hair spray cans probably would have been sufficient by itself to meet the environmental goals.

Nonetheless, R-134a is readily available now. Conversions are cost effective, performance is sufficient in all but a few applications, and the product is safer than the propane/butane mixture, and nearly as safe as the R-12 it replaces. Further, the price of R-12 has now fallen to the point where it costs about the same as R-134a, providing a viable alternative for those few systems that do need its slightly better thermodynamic performance.
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Old 06-23-2010, 06:18 PM   #17
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I hope we did not run her off

I have personally enjoyed the discussion about the alternative refrigerant available. It was enlightening, and I thought both players did a great job stating his/her views on the subject matter. A round of kudos to all.

nellie1960: Please keep this thread updated as to the course of action you decide to take to restore cool air.

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Old 06-24-2010, 07:10 AM   #18
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Ac

Wow, I love this forum! While probably more confused than when I started it had given me many options. If I had my way I would buy a new compressor and dryer and find someone to charge it with that dreadful R12 that critics are so concerned about. Does anyone have a replacement part number or source for new compressor for my chariot. It is a 1988 but I my chassis is a 1987 P30 with the 454 Chevy V8. The truck shop working on my unit just replaced all the vital under carrige air bags with a slick install on the front air adjustable shocks. Drives so much nicer! Still would love to have that dash air working when driving. Been so hot here.
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Old 11-13-2010, 09:17 PM   #19
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Hope I'm not to late. When I revived my dash air, I put a new compressor, new hoses, and new expansion valve on, then I charged it with R12. If you look hard enough you can still find it for around 18.00 per can. Did the entire project for less than 500.00. Don't forget to flush out the condensor and evaparator coils..
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Old 07-30-2014, 01:28 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oliver00 View Post
I just replaced the hoses to get the right fittings and because one was damaged new drier and charged the unit. That was 6 years ago still works fine on 134A total cost @ $200.00. If you want to make a trip to Louisville I can do it for you.
Get all the info you can because I just went through this and it cost around 4K because everything had to be retro fitted.
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Old 08-07-2014, 10:25 AM   #21
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I installed a dash mounted 12v fan from Camping World, and I run the generator and roof A/C on the road.
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Old 08-07-2014, 11:51 AM   #22
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The compressor failed on my 98 Explorer. The system vented itself through the over pressure vent that stuck open from the fibers from the pumps self destruction. Quotes to repair it ranged from $1800 to $2400. I did some online research and watched some repair videos. I ordered a repair kit that included the pump, oil, office, drier, and seals. It was $256. I picked up a service manifold and vacuum pump on sale at HF for another $300. I opened up the entire system and flushed it completely. Replaced all the seals, evacuated the system and did the vacuum check. Charged it with the specified amount of R134. It took about 6 hours. Most of that was pumping it down and leak testing. About 2 hours of actual wrenching. Total cost was about $300 not including the tools. It's been running fine for 3 years now.

Now I'm looking for used window A/C to build a freon recovery system.


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Old 08-07-2014, 08:37 PM   #23
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Fellow RV'r pointed out to me when I bought my Airstream. Let's just say, the Airstream gets 10mpg on the road w/o using the Dash A/C. Utilizing the Dash A/C now gets you 9mpg. So at 60mph, your not using an extra fuel just to run the Dash A/C and are only halfway keeping the driver/passenger area cool (WHOLE lotta windows up there)

Then, if you run genset and operate both roof A/C/s, the genset only uses a gallon per hour of use.

So, which is more fuel friendly??? Genset and Roof A/C units IMHO.

Derek
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Old 08-10-2014, 07:12 PM   #24
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You can do a complete retrofit as Air Dog discussed. Just remember to add stop leak to it to coat all the tubing that is rated for R12 if you decide to go the R134a route. For the lengthy plumbing in our mohos, I would recommend two cans of stop leak.
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