Martin's Argosy Rebuild Thread

[Boom Sounds]

Airlink recommended, soft start. Mine has never let me down and good to deal with.


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[martin300662]

More 'officialdom' issues at this end......

I sent of the application for registration back in December (in the UK the title and registration are the same thing, and includes the registration number (the plate) that will live with Bella all the time she is registered in the UK). It takes a while so I was not overly worried that it hadn't come back, but happy when I got mail from the DVLA (the UK version of DMV)....until I opened it that is.

Its my application form (V55/5) with a coverslip that says, rejected - incomplete information! No details of what is missing, where to get it from etc.

Got to love 'jobsworths'! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobsworth)

[bkahler]

Martin, I certainly hope you didn't think retirement was going to be boring!

Gotta love bureaucrats

[martin300662]

So this weeks' tales of woe....

In order to stop the transmission leaks, the trans oil pan has been dropped to replace the gasket. Only to find what look like pieces of clutch plate and aluminum shavings in the oil - joy number 1 the trans has to come out.

Probably worse; those that attended the Classic Motorhome Get Together last year will remember Bella's 'fast idle' issue. Seemed if you set the idle at the correct rpm when out of drive, engaging drive stalled her out. Brad had sourced a idle solenoid to try and solve the issue, however it now appears that issue, along with badly failing the UK emissions test, has lead to some investigation of the actual cause. The shop have found the valve timing chain has stretched and causing the valve timing to vary all over the place. So Bella is again up on the ramp so that the radiator can come out to replace the timing chain.

The good news is it will be easier to fit the steering pump (if it ever comes out of customs hell!) whilst the front of the engine is being re-installed.

This actually means this is the third winter running where Bella has spent Jan-March indoors not just keeping warm but fixing stuff that other shops are supposed to have worked on the previous year!

[Boom Sounds]

Yikes. Is Bella in at LAS?


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[martin300662]

Originally Posted by Boom Sounds

Yikes. Is Bella in at LAS?


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Yes Nick and could be for a while!

[Smartstream]

Martin I cannot believe the patience you have shown dealing with so many inept people that have worked on and failed to repair Bella.

I will suggest you consider a rebuilt engine from a reputable rebuilder for Bella. If the timing chain is stretched so far to cause timing to bounce around, I would guess that many other internal components are also significantly damaged or worn.

The trans is out for rebuild, now is a good time to do the engine and maybe also a bearing set in the differential. This would give you a fresh and dependable drivetrain to go together with the beautiful new coach you have built.

It would be so nice to see you enjoy some wonderful travel in Bella without visits to the repair shop before, during and after each trip.

[bkahler]

Martin,

This might be apples to oranges but on my TBI system the timing was all over the place due to a faulty ignition module inside the distributor. There are differences in the distributor between TBI and the HEI style ignition but I seem to remember that in an HEI system if the distributor doesn't fire at the right time that affects timing as well (or am I wrong about this?!).

Anyway, changing the ignition module is a quick and dirty way to see if it solves the problem.

Brad

[martin300662]

Originally Posted by Smartstream

Martin I cannot believe the patience you have shown dealing with so many inept people that have worked on and failed to repair Bella.

I will suggest you consider a rebuilt engine from a reputable rebuilder for Bella. If the timing chain is stretched so far to cause timing to bounce around, I would guess that many other internal components are also significantly damaged or worn.

The trans is out for rebuild, now is a good time to do the engine and maybe also a bearing set in the differential. This would give you a fresh and dependable drivetrain to go together with the beautiful new coach you have built.

It would be so nice to see you enjoy some wonderful travel in Bella without visits to the repair shop before, during and after each trip.

My first reaction after getting the news about the timing chain was to start looking at 350HO crate motors!

[martin300662]

Originally Posted by bkahler

Martin,

This might be apples to oranges but on my TBI system the timing was all over the place due to a faulty ignition module inside the distributor. There are differences in the distributor between TBI and the HEI style ignition but I seem to remember that in an HEI system if the distributor doesn't fire at the right time that affects timing as well (or am I wrong about this?!).

Anyway, changing the ignition module is a quick and dirty way to see if it solves the problem.

Brad

The shop had got as far as determining the timing chain was stretched and there was 'slop' in the valve timing before contacting me, so has to be replaced even if not the root cause. But I will get them to replace the ignition module, maybe the distributor. If that doesn't work then I think I am going to jump to a new crate motor.

[bkahler]

Originally Posted by martin300662

The shop had got as far as determining the timing chain was stretched and there was 'slop' in the valve timing before contacting me, so has to be replaced even if not the root cause. But I will get them to replace the ignition module, maybe the distributor. If that doesn't work then I think I am going to jump to a new crate motor.

I wonder how they determined the timing chain had stretched? The only way I can think of is to turn the crank pulley forward and back and watch the distributor shaft to see if it turns consistently with the crank or if there is a delay before the shaft rotates.

[GWallace]

Brad,
Your method of checking the timing chain is normally the way it is done. When the chain is new, there won't be any 'slop' in the distribute rotor. As the chain wears and stretches there will be some slop as the crankshaft is rocked back and forth. On the cast iron engines made prior to newer designs of today there were no chain tensioners just the chain and it was common to replace them around 100,000 miles. The newer generation engines can exceed 200,000 miles without replacement. Usually a worn timing chain is not an indication that rest of the engine is worn and often the engine is OK. Martin I hope that is your situation. The chain is normally replaced along with the two gears.

Martin if your ignition is a standard GM HEI ignition system, then be careful of the brand and quality level replacement module that you use. I had a really bad time with some modules made in China. They failed on an intermittent manner and were difficult to trouble shoot. I wound up using the more expensive module from NAPA made in the USA. I understand that the higher quality Delco module made in the USA is also a good one. Now I always carry a spare.

With the GM HEI system of the 1970s, the only thing that affects the timing is the vacuum and centrifugal advance in the distributer and worn timing chain.

Good Luck Gregg!

[martin300662]

Originally Posted by GWallace

Brad,
Your method of checking the timing chain is normally the way it is done. When the chain is new, there won't be any 'slop' in the distribute rotor. As the chain wears and stretches there will be some slop as the crankshaft is rocked back and forth. On the cast iron engines made prior to newer designs of today there were no chain tensioners just the chain and it was common to replace them around 100,000 miles. The newer generation engines can exceed 200,000 miles without replacement. Usually a worn timing chain is not an indication that rest of the engine is worn and often the engine is OK. Martin I hope that is your situation. The chain is normally replaced along with the two gears.

Martin if your ignition is a standard GM HEI ignition system, then be careful of the brand and quality level replacement module that you use. I had a really bad time with some modules made in China. They failed on an intermittent manner and were difficult to trouble shoot. I wound up using the more expensive module from NAPA made in the USA. I understand that the higher quality Delco module made in the USA is also a good one. Now I always carry a spare.

With the GM HEI system of the 1970s, the only thing that affects the timing is the vacuum and centrifugal advance in the distributor and worn timing chain.

Good Luck Gregg!

Thanks Gregg, I believe they are seeing slop between the crank being rotated back and forth and the valve train moving. They apparently have seen this previously in motorhomes failing to meet emissions in UK and don't appear as phased by it as I am.

[Isuzusweet]

Sorry for your bit of bad luck mate......lucky for you most of the UK's mechanics don't have a chance to work on Yankee iron too often so it's probably their top notch guy working on it.

Timing chain, HEI ignition systems.....all alien stuff to Dan and myself.

Cheers Tony

[bkahler]

Gregg, thinking about it more I think it is with a points style distributor if you change the point gap it affects the timing. If I remember the sequence right you adjusted the point gap first and then set the timing.

I wonder how many people even remember what ignition points are?!

Brad

[Smartstream]

Come on Brad are you trying to say something about us old guys who know what points are? Remember my Model Ts have the old "buzz box" coils. I wonder how many of the youngsters here have a clue what a Model T coil is or better yet how may per car.

Back on topic I'm still concerned how a timing chain can wear enough to cause problems without other components also wearing. I remember there were a bunch of engines that wore cam lobes flat. To me everything else on Bella is new so it's time to give her a heart transplant and go camping.

[martin300662]

Originally Posted by Smartstream

Back on topic I'm still concerned how a timing chain can wear enough to cause problems without other components also wearing. I remember there were a bunch of engines that wore cam lobes flat. To me everything else on Bella is new so it's time to give her a heart transplant and go camping.

Not sure if it makes a difference, but the shop aren't describing the timing chain as being worn, but stretched.

I have personal experience of replacing chains (and associated gears) because of stretch on my motorbikes, which happens long before other drive parts wear. In the case of my bikes, the gears are only worn because the distance between the links has increased and the gears wear to that new distance resulting in the tooth thickness being reduced such that the link is able to move back and forth in the valley.

[Smartstream]

I don't want to be disagreeable but to "stretch" a chain without wear would indicate that the metallurgy or engineering failed by not being able to handle the load applied. The accumulative wear on each roller, pin, and link allows the chain to grow in length or "stretch." Either condition will cause wear on the sprockets because the distance between rollers has grown and no longer matches to tooth spacing on the sprocket.

In the case of Bella making a determination without physical inspection of the chain would be impossible. If you had a high lift cam and very heavy valve springs and other high performance valve train components, you might be able to exceed the strength of the timing chain and stretch it but I don't think that is the situation. As mentioned above 100,000 mile life of a timing is normal which leads me to question other component wear.

[martin300662]

Originally Posted by Smartstream

I don't want to be disagreeable but to "stretch" a chain without wear would indicate that the metallurgy or engineering failed by not being able to handle the load applied. The accumulative wear on each roller, pin, and link allows the chain to grow in length or "stretch." Either condition will cause wear on the sprockets because the distance between rollers has grown and no longer matches to tooth spacing on the sprocket.

In the case of Bella making a determination without physical inspection of the chain would be impossible. If you had a high lift cam and very heavy valve springs and other high performance valve train components, you might be able to exceed the strength of the timing chain and stretch it but I don't think that is the situation. As mentioned above 100,000 mile life of a timing is normal which leads me to question other component wear.

Makes sense Dan, and I guess we will see when the old chain comes out.

[bkahler]

Originally Posted by Smartstream

Come on Brad are you trying to say something about us old guys who know what points are? Remember my Model Ts have the old "buzz box" coils. I wonder how many of the youngsters here have a clue what a Model T coil is or better yet how may per car.

I'm with you on the points but you've dated yourself with the Model T coils