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bkahler · 05-04-2016, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elisa

Do these air bags really help - does it ride hard or better or what? Please let me know - we are debating doing the same thing.
Elisa

Elisa, you basically have two options. Install the airbags or upgrade the front springs based on the weight of your coach. A lot of forum members have upgraded the springs with positive results.

At a minimum install the air bags as it does help smooth out the ride and keeps the front end from bouncing as much.

Brad

Elisa · 05-04-2016, 07:40 AM

Brad,
My mechanic-at-home wants to know if you mean the coils when you say "springs"? Ours is the 24' MH. And what does upgrade mean - larger, new, what? Be specific - I am SO clueless.
Thank you!
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Elisa, you basically have two options. Install the airbags or upgrade the front springs based on the weight of your coach. A lot of forum members have upgraded the springs with positive results.

At a minimum install the air bags as it does help smooth out the ride and keeps the front end from bouncing as much.

Brad"

martin300662 · 05-04-2016, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elisa

Brad,
My mechanic-at-home wants to know if you mean the coils when you say "springs"? Ours is the 24' MH. And what does upgrade mean - larger, new, what? Be specific - I am SO clueless.
Thank you!

I believe they are actually called coil springs, so everyone is correct!

Elisa · 05-04-2016, 08:46 AM

OK, thanks for the terminology! Do they make the ride smoother and do they help with front end sway?

Elisa, 1977 24' MH

mprokop87 · 05-04-2016, 09:22 AM

I've been driving my Argosy to work the past couple days to make sure everything is A-OK for our big trip next week. I have noticed a major difference in the ride and I am glad I did it. It also sits a bit higher.

One thing that I noticed about having the air bags.... Last year I had a control arm bushing go bad on me and had noticed that the tires were wearing on the insides, almost like it was toed out too much. I assumed that the two were linked. When I went to do the springs this year, I noticed that the tires wore right down to the steel belts deep under the rubber (NOT GOOD). With the front end of my motorhome lifted up, I noticed that the tires were toed in almost a full inch (the distance between the front of the two front tires was one inch narrower that the distance between the back of the two front tires... make sense?).

As I lowered the RV to its natural stance with the bags deflated I noticed that 1 inch measurement starting to get smaller and smaller, which is good. Once I got to a certain point it was too hard to measure the toe in/out accurately because of how low it sits, all the steering componants under it, and the tools I had available to make those measurements. My guess is that with the bags installed and inflated to 60psi, my front end alignment will be pretty close to optimal. Without that extra support, the RV sits lower than it was intended too. By having no airbags for 2+years, my tires were wearing because everything was 'off' and we drove it a lot.

Summary.... at a minimum put the air bags in. I should have done it two years ago to save me the cost of a new set of front tires. I have a front end alignment scheduled for Tuesday just to make sure everything is good but it should be

GWallace · 05-04-2016, 09:48 AM

I have a 77 Argosy 20 that I bought in 1978. When I fist got it the handling was superb. As time went (the late 80's) the front sat a little lower and I had to be carefull with dips in the road. It would "bottom out" quite easily. My last trip out of town was 1993 and the unit sat until 2 years ago. I have spent the last 2 years reviving my 20 for travel again. One of the things that I discovered was that the bags installed by the factory when new had degraded and were in pieces. Chevy intended for those front coil springs to have air bags installed inflated to 60 psi (I think. The owners manual states the correct pressure). That front front axle carries about 5000 lbs and the air bags make a significant difference on handling. I went to Camping World last year and they had a little bit of sale on the Airlift brand air bags installed. What a difference in passing over bumps and dips in the road! The air bags handle the dips and the motorhome doesn't feel like it is going out control as it did without the bags. Whether you get new "stiffer" coil springs or install new air bags is a personal choice but Chevy did not intend for the "factory" coil springs to be used without air bags.
Gregg

GWallace · 05-04-2016, 09:52 AM

By the way my mom has a 77 Argosy 24 and she had the same issue in 1995 until the air bags were replaced at that time. With the new air bags, the front end ride and handling improved.
Gregg

bkahler · 05-04-2016, 09:56 AM

What Martin and Matt described is spot on. There are two thoughts or camps on the front suspension for these motorhomes. It's my understanding all of the motorhomes originally came with the air bags inside the front coil springs. The air pressure is supposed to be 55 psi in the air bags. This combination gave the correct ride height for the front end.

Some people instead of replacing the air bags with new ones change the front coil springs to higher rated springs. The theory being the front end of the motorhome is heavier than originally intended by GM so the air bags were added to compensate for the added weight.

There are two reasons why I didn't go the up-rated spring route. I had already bought new springs for my Argosy and at the time I had no way to weight the front of the coach to determine what size coil springs I would have needed to buy.

There is a good chance that once I have mine up and running and it's time to replace the air bags I will likely switch to heavier springs.

I will say this, if your front springs are sagging due to age you really do need to replace them. Unbeknownst to me at the time, my old 310 had worn out front springs and I literally had a front shock snap in two from a bump that we hit. That caused me to look closer at the front end and that was when I realized just how bad the front springs were.

Bottom line is have your mechanic check the front end out thoroughly to ensure that it's in good condition.

Brad

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elisa

Brad,
My mechanic-at-home wants to know if you mean the coils when you say "springs"? Ours is the 24' MH. And what does upgrade mean - larger, new, what? Be specific - I am SO clueless.
Thank you!
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Elisa, you basically have two options. Install the airbags or upgrade the front springs based on the weight of your coach. A lot of forum members have upgraded the springs with positive results.

At a minimum install the air bags as it does help smooth out the ride and keeps the front end from bouncing as much.

Brad"

bkahler · 05-04-2016, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GWallace

By the way my mom has a 77 Argosy 24 and she had the same issue in 1995 until the air bags were replaced at that time. With the new air bags, the front end ride and handling improved.
Gregg

Wow Gregg, if I remember right you're about 72 years old. That means your mom is something like 90 years old and she still owns and drives an Argosy!

Now THAT'S impressive!

GWallace · 05-04-2016, 10:24 AM

Close Brad,
Mom will be 97 next month. Unfortunately she has had a stroke and doesn't drive anymore. (about 6 years ago). She lives in Austin, TX and still has the 24 which belonged to my brother and then uncle at one time. My sister is having surgery in two weeks and my first "out of town" trip with my 20 will be to Austin to stay at mom's place while my sister goes through her ordeal. After we did some repairs to her 24 in 1995, my mom and sister drove the unit from Austin TX to Alaska and back that year. People kept asking them where the man was to be that far away from home in the motorhome. The Argosy did just fine for the trip which was about 8 weeks.
For mom the trip was a return to Alaska since we had gone once before in 1959 when Alaska had just become a state. There had been a lot of changes from 1959 to 1995.
Gregg

martin300662 · 05-04-2016, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkahler

snip.....

It's my understanding all of the motorhomes originally came with the air bags inside the front coil springs.

I'm still pretty sure airbags in the front were introduced (specifically on 20ft) after 1975 but before 1977 as the majority of early 20s don't have them, yet every one from 1977 I have heard of has them or is known to have had the uprated coil springs added.

mprokop87 · 05-04-2016, 11:22 AM

Elisa,
If you want, I can write up a detailed step by step on how I installed my springs if you are going to do it yourself. It's not that hard, you just need to be patient. It took me around an hour and a half my first time doing it. Others claim a little longer to do but either way the average person at home can do it.

Smartstream · 05-04-2016, 12:20 PM

The following is from the GM P-30 Motorhome Service manual discussing the front springs. Sorry for the lack of spaces between some words but that is the way my computer copied it.

VEHICLE RIDEHEIGHT-FRONTCOIL SPRING/AIR BAG REPLACEMENT The motor home owner should be cautioned in the use ofsomeafter-market frontcoilsprings currentlyavailable. Someafter-market frontcoilspringsaremerchandised as a methodto increase ride heightfor the motor home. To obtainthis additional ride height, manufacturers have increased the diameter ofthe wire slightlyand added one extra coil. However, use of these after-market springs should beconsideredveryriskyforthemotorhomeowner. GM recommends the use of only factory-approved replacementpartsforthis "safety-sensitive" areaofthevehicle. Some after-market coils arephysicallytoo largefor thenormally designed workingareaofthefrontcoilspring asthewheelgoesthrough itsridetravel. On crush, these after-market springs can create a metal-to-metal "coilbound" condition before the ride stops come into play. (Thedamagecreated byusingametal-to- metalsolid coil can be compared to installing a piece of well casing in
SECTION 3 STEERING,SUSPENSION,WHEELSANDTIRES place of a spring, then raising the vehicle in the air and dropping the vehicle to the ground.) The force of this metal-to-metal "coil-bound" condition is transferred directly into the potential destruction ofthe lower balljoints or broken lower control arms. The addition of a spring shim (donut-type spacer)has asimilareffect ofpromoting a "coil-bound" condition. Complaintsof airbagfailures are alsothe result ofthese after-marketfrontcoil springs. The springs have atendency to "pinch" the air bag between the coils on crush. Frontcoil springs should ONLYbereplaced byaqualified service shop. Access to the front coil spring and the air bag is gained by lowering the lower control arm. CAUTION: USE ONLY GM APPROVED REPLACEMENT PARTS FOR THIS SAFETY-SENSITIVE AREA OFTHEVEHICLE. 1984toCurrent.................. GMPartNo.14054345 Priorto1984........................ GMPartNo.472222 NOTE: 1984 to current front springs (GM Part No. 14054345) can be used for 1983andprioryears that require front spring GM Part No. 472222. This will raise the frontof thevehicle 3/8 inchto 1/2 inch measured at the "A/BC" measurement location shown in Figure A3-2-1. Study Figure A3-2-1 at the back ofthis section ofthe manual to determine if the useful life of the front coil springsisexhaustedandreplacementofthefront coil springs is necessary.

The P-30 has a very short suspension travel. If you look at the springs and the distance to the bump stops there just isn't much room for travel. The air bags really do help prevent that spring bound condition.

bkahler · 05-04-2016, 01:22 PM

Dan, I've read that section of the manual before. The problem with some of the information is the part numbers referenced are no longer available and if you follow the supersession chain various part numbers end up being one part number and that part number specs don't match the original specifications.

That leads me to believe the springs with the new part number doesn't necessarily match the size and weight rating of the original springs which tells me the springs that the supersession leads you to are not necessarily correct either.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying not to use air bags but I also don't think the after market springs by companies such as Supersteer are quite as risky as GM alludes too. There are a lot of people out there running up-rated springs that have not reported any issues.

My only gripe with air bags is they don't last all that long.

I'm actually surprised that GM feels it's ok to raise the ride height by 3/8" to 1/2". Wouldn't that change some of the alignment characteristics?

I sure wish original GM parts were readily available for this rigs!

Smartstream · 05-04-2016, 02:10 PM

Brad I realize the numbers are old but I would make sure any replacement spring is dimensionally the same as original. Any cross sectional size increase to gain capacity may do more harm then good.

The bags do wear excessively when under inflated. I ran an ail line from my rear compressor through a pressure regulator to continuously maintain the proper pressure in the front bags. I haven't lost a bag in quite awhile.

bkahler · 05-04-2016, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smartstream

Brad I realize the numbers are old but I would make sure any replacement spring is dimensionally the same as original. Any cross sectional size increase to gain capacity may do more harm then good.

I wish I could do that but my original springs are long gone! The trick would be to find a rig that is known to have the original springs and take some measurements. Someday.....

Quote:

The bags do wear excessively when under inflated. I ran an ail line from my rear compressor through a pressure regulator to continuously maintain the proper pressure in the front bags. I haven't lost a bag in quite awhile.

I was actually planning on doing something similar only I was going to have solenoids and a rotary control switch to select which solenoid to fill with air. The solenoid would be closed when 55 psi was reached but could be opened to add more air or dump air depending on switch positioning.

Some time ago I had discussed the setup you're using with Keyair and my argument against your method was that with both air bags tied together, when one wheel hit a hard bump that would force the other air bag to over pressurize to a certain extent. At least for a brief period of time.

However your real world experience tells me that the 1/4" lines are to small to allow enough air to be forced to the other bag in such a short period of time as in a wheel bounce. I guess I need to tell Keyair to go ahead and use your method!

mprokop87 · 05-04-2016, 05:15 PM

Brad, if you want original springs I can bring them with me from that front end that I have. I have to remove them anyway

bkahler · 05-04-2016, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mprokop87

Brad, if you want original springs I can bring them with me from that front end that I have. I have to remove them anyway

If I remember you right you said that chassis was an early 80's. Do you know what the chassis weight rating was?

All I was looking for based on discussions with Dan was the coil diameter. I'd like to compare that dimension with the springs that are on the market today.

Smartstream · 05-04-2016, 07:20 PM

Brad I think my feed lines for the front bags are 1/16". I took the feed from the dash gauge feed. I don't believe side to side feedback is a problem but I did install two check valves just in case. The small push on fittings are inexpensive.

I never gave it a thought about not having original springs to compare size.

bkahler · 05-05-2016, 07:43 AM

I had thought the feed lines were 1/4". I've installed the bags but haven't even looked at the feed lines yet. It's been 10 years since I installed the replacement bags in the 310 and I don't remember what size the line was.

With 1/16" feed lines there is no way a bounce on one side will affect the other side and with check valves it definitely won't happen