Maybe not Peter, but to explain here is my logic. Tony's engine of choice is the Cummins 6BT. In Europe these are widely used in the DAF 45 trucks and readily available as running units (still in the chassis rails).
However these engines weigh a lot more than 474 so will require the front end to be reworked. If this is the case then maybe a better approach is a body swap. The DAF 45 150 4x2 is very similar in length, wheel base and width. Is a dually chassis like the P30 and already has the suspension/steering/brakes to suit the engine.
I love our 24 Argosy, but not the (our) P30 chassis and 454.
My engine of choice, also, is the Cummins 6BT.
Your post has me excited,I've been searching for an E450 ford chassis with the 7.3 or anything close with a Cummins.
4x4 was a pipe dream.
I'd love to discuss this, get your advice, or start a new thread.
And a manual tranny!
I've been out of work for about a year with an eye injury (I'm functional, just not for my job, for a while).
We've taken this opportunity to do missionary work in the Ukraine and have helped with some vehicles. My mind has been constant on a justification to get get our Argosy to Poland for an affordable rework. This may be it.
PM on the way.
Although a few folks have dismantled Argosy/Classic motorhomes, unlike trailers where 'body-off' restorations are reasonably common (and well document), I don't remember seeing any thread, other than Bella's where the body has been removed from the chassis and then refitted.
There have been other threads where folks have started the task of moving the body from one chassis to another, for example that of a pick-up, but none of these threads were completed. But unlike the P30 a pick-up chassis kicks up over the rear axle so it is not a straightforward swap.
The frame on which our bodies sit is 'flat' so any replacement chassis also needs to be flat.
Again there have been threads around possibly using the chassis from Mitsubishi Fuso and I remember Brett from Timeless Trailers wrote about re-chassis'ing his own motorhome in this thread, http://www.airforums.com/forums/f311...-140188-3.html, onto a Isuzu NQR chassis.
There are several '7.5 tonne' (16000lb) rated cab over engine chassis that could be used, in Europe (and available in both left and right hand drive) the most obvious option is the DAF LF45 range (made by Leyland Trucks) which use the PACCAR Cummins B engine (either 4 or 6BT), and can be purchase in high mileage but running condition for a little over $3000.
However, in order to remove the body your are first probably talking about completely gutting, so this is not a job to consider lightly.
In the other thread you shared these Leyland trucks. I am very grateful.
A 4x4 chassis, manual tranny, cab over powered by cummins? It warrants consideration for sure.
I travel to out of the country about 5 times a month, and usually Europe. I am always in big cities and dream of having the Argosy to explore the places I can't see on a day off.
We had some serious repairs done well at exceedingly affordable prices in Eastern Europe. I have a friend living on a 65 foot trimaran that was completely retro-fitted in a Polish shipyard.
I'm excited to learn the possibilities.
Seems like the round trip ferry price could be the greatest expense.
Open, and hopeful, for advice from the right side of the pond.
If you bring your motorhome to Europe as a temporary import then it has to return within a fixed time period (typically either 6 or 12months) or it is liable to importation duty. Equally if it was then taken back to US it would also then be subject to importation duty. We avoided this with Bella because we had owned her for more than 2 years and we were not allowed to sell her for over 1 year after importatio (the registration documentation was even marked as such in the first year). So up front you need to decide if you would be shipping 'permanently' or temporarily.
There is also some logistics about the donor truck. For example, when you purchase a vehicle in the UK you have to register it, once registered it can be used (when it needs to be taxed), SORN (this is a statutory off-road notice and notifies the government agency that the vehicle is in your position but not in use) or scraped. Even scraping is not straight forward as it has to happen at a authorized treatment facility (ATF). The other option would be to buy the donor for export, so for example buy in the UK (or another European country) but then export to Poland, it would avoid UK registration and taxation.
Also keep in mind is the actual registration. Our rigs have two VIN, the chassis VIN and the body VIN, the vehicle data-bases use the chassis VIN. Swapping the engine does not change the chassis VIN, obviously changing the chassis does, so check your current title. Both Bella and Peanut are titled on the chassis VIN so obviously changing the chassis would require that to be updated.
Last thing to consider logistically are the temporary export options. A temporary export to Europe, during which a chassis was changed, before re-importing may not even be noticed as the rig will look the same, however if it goes from this
to this
Someone may notice!
Equally a permanent export to Europe, with registration before the chassis swap (with the original VIN), then swap chassis would probably go unnoticed using the 4 x 2 chassis, maybe not with the 4 x 4. This opens another Pandora's Box in the UK as vehicles over 40 years old no longer need a state inspection (MOT) or pay tax, as long as the are unmodified from original spec. Because the 6BT was offered as an option on the Classics it could be argued that you are just changing from one build option to another, changing chassis would not count as unmodified.
I'm just brain storming, but the obvious thought would be to ship it directly to Poland and avoid the EU. After a rebuild, drive it around all of Europe for a while and ship it back. I'm guessing avoiding the UK for registration and donor "parts" would be helpful.
I can't imagine re-entry to the US would be difficult, especially if I'm driving in from Canada or Mexico on "a leg of a partial RTW (round the world) trip". The Argosy is obviously 40+ years old and would not change ownership or lapse the Florida registration.
While the monster truck effect is uber cool, the goal would be 4 wheel drive and a small increase in wheel size and ground clearance. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the van conversions (like sportsman 4x4) retain the original (ie Econoline) VIN and identity.
I'm just brain storming, but the obvious thought would be to ship it directly to Poland and avoid the EU. After a rebuild, drive it around all of Europe for a while and ship it back. I'm guessing avoiding the UK for registration and donor "parts" would be helpful.
I can't imagine re-entry to the US would be difficult, especially if I'm driving in from Canada or Mexico on "a leg of a partial RTW (round the world) trip". The Argosy is obviously 40+ years old and would not change ownership or lapse the Florida registration.
While the monster truck effect is uber cool, the goal would be 4 wheel drive and a small increase in wheel size and ground clearance. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the van conversions (like sportsman 4x4) retain the original (ie Econoline) VIN and identity.
Poland is in Europe, and a member of the EU so subject to the laws of the federal government.
Van conversions do retain the VIN of the original van but our rigs are not van conversions, they are coach-built onto a commercial chassis (Class A).
Don't beat yourself up, if you asked most folks in the UK they would have thought the same! It is one of the reasons 'Europe' is not working (IMO) countries that were outside Europe, became Eastern European now are central European as the border continues to be expanded eastward as new countries join. If the US was the same as Europe your southern border would be along the Brazil/Peru boundary and then be surprised when the lower 48 are full of trucks from French Guiana!
I'm usually better than that one.....
We spent the summer running around the Ukraine, Latvia, Estonia, Belarus and Poland; guilty by association.
I'm researching the DAF LF55's. I could have an Argosy Roadrunner,
or Off-Roadunner. I'm assuming the DAF cummins diesels are all turbo?
Any direction is appreciated. I assume they will be available anywhere in Europe, where would you suggest searching for the best donor?
I'm usually better than that one.....
We spent the summer running around the Ukraine, Latvia, Estonia, Belarus and Poland; guilty by association.
I'm researching the DAF LF55's. I could have an Argosy Roadrunner,
or Off-Roadunner. I'm assuming the DAF cummins diesels are all turbo?
Any direction is appreciated. I assume they will be available anywhere in Europe, where would you suggest searching for the best donor?
Personally I would be looking for an earlier unit, as the LF use the ISB5.9 and already had a whole load of electronics being added. There are pre-98 45/55/65 floating around that would be a more straight forward swap. Not all are turbo and many of the 45/55 use the 4BT not the 6BT
As for best market, I would do a bit of research on driving license laws across the European countries. In 1998 they were all standardized and a regular car license is only good to 3.5tonne. In some countries before that a car license could drive up to 7.5tonne. Why this could be key is the used value relates to potential market, so a 7.5tonne truck is worth less is in a market where less folks can drive it. A truck bigger than 7.5tonne will have a low resale value as you can only drive with a HGV license.
Personally I would be looking for an earlier unit, as the LF use the ISB5.9 and already had a whole load of electronics being added. There are pre-98 45/55/65 floating around that would be a more straight forward swap. Not all are turbo and many of the 45/55 use the 4BT not the 6BT
As for best market, I would do a bit of research on driving license laws across the European countries. In 1998 they were all standardized and a regular car license is only good to 3.5tonne. In some countries before that a car license could drive up to 7.5tonne. Why this could be key is the used value relates to potential market, so a 7.5tonne truck is worth less is in a market where less folks can drive it. A truck bigger than 7.5tonne will have a low resale value as you can only drive with a HGV license.
Definitely after 6 cylinder turbo so we can take the boat or motorcycles.
So I have a stupid question: How much is 7.5 tonne converted to our neolithic standard of measurement in non-British pounds, without being confused with pounds sterling (which will buy a nice lunch of Fish and chips, or crisps or fries).
To your earlier statement, we would definitely want a temporary export to the EU to have work done in Poland. We would definitely leave the EU to explore Eastern Europe before she returns Stateside. The DAF-leyland truck would only need a quick trip to the maintenance facility, where it would donate the maximum amount of it's parts to drivetrain and chassis parts.
Currently Looking...
1983 31' Airstream310
Hillsburgh
, Ontario
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,805
IMHO Buying one of these commercial trucks and placing an Argosy body on top presents a host of new problems....
Meeting DOT regulations of your peticular country you live in; let alone the one you drive into.
Being able to assimilate both the chassis electrics to the Argosy electrics. For example: I was looking at an Isuzu 4HK1-TC swap but decided that intergrating the electronics of the Isuzu into the Argosy for dashboard gauges and the like would have been insane.
Also these are commercial vehicles, with possibly front beam with spring axles up front and really heavy duty spring axles out back; giving you a ride akin to an old western buckboard. I'd drive the truck before I'd dive into it.
I'm finding easier to just replace the 454 with the Cummins. Any problems marrying Dodge to Chev have been thought out long ago, and there's a huge aftermarket parts source to help out with the conversion, from motor mounts, to different exhaust manifold configurations.
Cheers
Sidekick Tony
__________________
Per Mare, Per Terram and may all your campaigns be successful.
“It’s a recession when your neighbor loses his job; it’s a depression when you lose your own.” "Harry S Truman"
IMHO Buying one of these commercial trucks and placing an Argosy body on top presents a host of new problems....
Meeting DOT regulations of your peticular country you live in; let alone the one you drive into.
Being able to assimilate both the chassis electrics to the Argosy electrics. For example: I was looking at an Isuzu 4HK1-TC swap but decided that intergrating the electronics of the Isuzu into the Argosy for dashboard gauges and the like would have been insane.
Also these are commercial vehicles, with possibly front beam with spring axles up front and really heavy duty spring axles out back; giving you a ride akin to an old western buckboard. I'd drive the truck before I'd dive into it.
I'm finding easier to just replace the 454 with the Cummins. Any problems marrying Dodge to Chev have been thought out long ago, and there's a huge aftermarket parts source to help out with the conversion, from motor mounts, to different exhaust manifold configurations.
Cheers
Sidekick Tony
I definitely agree about driving the truck first, and the 45 which is basically the same chassis as the medium weight Kenworth K270.
I guess I was also considering this as a body swap....ie the dash instruments and electrics would all come from the donor with just the chassis lighting circuits connecting to the original lights.
In order to do the body swap everything else would be removed so really would be more of a new van conversion than a rebuild.
Currently Looking...
1983 31' Airstream310
Hillsburgh
, Ontario
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,805
Quote:
Originally Posted by martin300662
I guess I was also considering this as a body swap....ie the dash instruments and electrics would all come from the donor with just the chassis lighting circuits connecting to the original lights.
Swapping over a dashboard into an Argosy from any other vehicle would be no easy task.......I'm still hopeful I can somehow transfer the main dashboard binnacle from the Bounder to the Argosy.....all I'm saying is this; the newer the donor vehicle, the harder it gets. The wiring harnesses that I saw in the Isuzu NPR scared the beejeezers out of me as there were going to computers, fuse boxes and sensors everywhere on the truck, leaving me wondering on stuff like, how was I going to incooperate the Isuzu huge air box and tube affair, (which had maintainance and performance sensors all over it), into the Argosy.
I decided it was way above my pay grade.
Cheers
Sidekick Tony
__________________
Per Mare, Per Terram and may all your campaigns be successful.
“It’s a recession when your neighbor loses his job; it’s a depression when you lose your own.” "Harry S Truman"
IMHO Buying one of these commercial trucks and placing an Argosy body on top presents a host of new problems....
Meeting DOT regulations of your peticular country you live in; let alone the one you drive into.
Being able to assimilate both the chassis electrics to the Argosy electrics. For example: I was looking at an Isuzu 4HK1-TC swap but decided that intergrating the electronics of the Isuzu into the Argosy for dashboard gauges and the like would have been insane.
Also these are commercial vehicles, with possibly front beam with spring axles up front and really heavy duty spring axles out back; giving you a ride akin to an old western buckboard. I'd drive the truck before I'd dive into it.
I'm finding easier to just replace the 454 with the Cummins. Any problems marrying Dodge to Chev have been thought out long ago, and there's a huge aftermarket parts source to help out with the conversion, from motor mounts, to different exhaust manifold configurations.
Cheers
Sidekick Tony
I think Tony is spot-on with regards to the 454 to Cummins swap. It's a swap that's been performed a thousand times with great success. As for the swapping of a commercial truck chassis for the P30 chassis, keep in mind the P30 chassis under the Argosy is not the typical P30 truck chassis used in box trucks, etc. For the Argosy (and later motorhomes) the P30 chassis was upgraded with independent front suspension, larger front and rear brakes and if the chassis was long enough the rear brakes were changed to disk brakes. Also the front and rear sway bars were increased in size to help keep the swaying to a minimum.
Bottom line is I'd think long and hard AND take a test drive in any potential donor to be sure you know what you're getting yourself into.
As for donors that would require instrumentation swaps, have fun trying to redo the instrument cluster and dash to try and make it look decent! I have some experience in that regard and it's a whole lotta work
Something else about this process that I'm confused about. Suppose you take a US registered vehicle with vin # xxxyyy1234 to Poland and swap in a different chassis with vin # zzzddd5678 built to European specs. To me that means vin # xxxyyy1234 no longer exist and you probably wouldn't be able to return it to the US as being the same Argosy that headed to Poland. I would think you're actually trying to import a new vehicle. I believe moving a vin plate from one chassis to another is illegal, at least in the US. Am I missing something here?
Brad
__________________
Air forums # 1674
1974 20' Argosy Motor Home
1975 24' Argosy Motor Home
1974 31' Excella trailer (parting out, as of 4/1/2015 I have wheels & windows left to sell)
Another point is many jurisdictions change requirements to the year of the newer component. A 90's vintage engine meets 90's smog and safety regulations. If you live in an area with no inspections you can slip an engine in without being noticed. If you import or export, things get interesting well beyond getting the actual conversion done and weather it is now an Argosy or a DAF. Calif. calls it a special construction model year the year the conversion is completed and all the new regulations to match. Lots of fun.
__________________
Cheers, Dan
________________________________________
"Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them."
~ Margaret Thatcher ~
As for donors that would require instrumentation swaps, have fun trying to redo the instrument cluster and dash to try and make it look decent! I have some experience in that regard and it's a whole lotta work
Certainly what I am suggestion would use none of the original instrument cluster, it would be a custom dash to house the donor instrument binnacle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkahler
Something else about this process that I'm confused about. Suppose you take a US registered vehicle with vin # xxxyyy1234 to Poland and swap in a different chassis with vin # zzzddd5678 built to European specs. To me that means vin # xxxyyy1234 no longer exist and you probably wouldn't be able to return it to the US as being the same Argosy that headed to Poland. I would think you're actually trying to import a new vehicle. I believe moving a vin plate from one chassis to another is illegal, at least in the US. Am I missing something here?
This why I suggested they check their own title. If it is titled with the GMC VIN, exactly what you describe has happened. If it is titled with the Argosy VIN, then that remains.
Certainly what I am suggestion would use none of the original instrument cluster, it would be a custom dash to house the donor instrument binnacle.
Ok, I had to look up the definition of binnacle! As far as looks go a wholesale change out of the gauges will require a lot of planning and effort. A poorly done instrument cluster just makes everything look cheap.
Quote:
This why I suggested they check their own title. If it is titled with the GMC VIN, exactly what you describe has happened. If it is titled with the Argosy VIN, then that remains.
My Argosy is titled by the Airstream supplied vin. My old 84 310 I'm pretty sure was titled by the GM vin. From what I've read it seems to be hit and miss as to which vin was used in the titling process. I guess if you're going to do a body swap you'd be better off with an Argosy that is currently titled by the Airstream supplied vin. That would certainly save a whole lot of hassle down the road.
Brad
__________________
Air forums # 1674
1974 20' Argosy Motor Home
1975 24' Argosy Motor Home
1974 31' Excella trailer (parting out, as of 4/1/2015 I have wheels & windows left to sell)
Ok, I had to look up the definition of binnacle! As far as looks go a wholesale change out of the gauges will require a lot of planning and effort. A poorly done instrument cluster just makes everything look cheap.
I was thinking even simpler Brad.
This is the standard DAF 45 binnacle, and I was expecting this to simply sit on a new dash, much akin to how the current p30 instruments sit on the early dashes.
Simply unplugged from the donor dash and re-plugged into the same connectors once the binnacle is inserted in the new dash. Nothing changing and nothing being added. The new dash would have to include slots for the donor vents but everything else is the same. All the controls on the donor steering column would be the same as well. I can't see how anything needs changing other than the actual connection to the Argosy lights?
No doubt there is a need for a set of gauges/controls relating to the Airstream coach services but they can sit somewhere else on the new dash
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