Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 09-29-2018, 03:15 PM   #1
2 Rivet Member
 
1977 24' Argosy 24
Space Coast , Florida
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 36
Body Swap on a 24 Argosy

I'm starting a new thread to discuss this point brought up in the 1975 Argosy Value thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by martin300662 View Post
Maybe not Peter, but to explain here is my logic. Tony's engine of choice is the Cummins 6BT. In Europe these are widely used in the DAF 45 trucks and readily available as running units (still in the chassis rails).

Attachment 323468

However these engines weigh a lot more than 474 so will require the front end to be reworked. If this is the case then maybe a better approach is a body swap. The DAF 45 150 4x2 is very similar in length, wheel base and width. Is a dually chassis like the P30 and already has the suspension/steering/brakes to suit the engine.

Attachment 323469

But if going that route then the 4x4 version of the chassis has the same wheel base, width, although shorter (at 20ft) but could be lengthen.

Attachment 323470



WOW.

I love our 24 Argosy, but not the (our) P30 chassis and 454.
My engine of choice, also, is the Cummins 6BT.
Your post has me excited,I've been searching for an E450 ford chassis with the 7.3 or anything close with a Cummins.
4x4 was a pipe dream.
I'd love to discuss this, get your advice, or start a new thread.

And a manual tranny!

I've been out of work for about a year with an eye injury (I'm functional, just not for my job, for a while).
We've taken this opportunity to do missionary work in the Ukraine and have helped with some vehicles. My mind has been constant on a justification to get get our Argosy to Poland for an affordable rework. This may be it.
PM on the way.
__________________

mikeajana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2018, 03:20 PM   #2
2 Rivet Member
 
1977 24' Argosy 24
Space Coast , Florida
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 36
http://go.skimresources.com/?id=2187...0.3-2&bv=2.5.1
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DAF 45 150 6BT.jpg
Views:	42
Size:	477.1 KB
ID:	323976   Click image for larger version

Name:	DAF 45 150 4x2.jpg
Views:	40
Size:	223.7 KB
ID:	323977  

Click image for larger version

Name:	DAF 45 150 4x4.jpg
Views:	46
Size:	169.9 KB
ID:	323978  
Attached Images
  
__________________

mikeajana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2018, 03:52 PM   #3
Keen amature
 
martin300662's Avatar

 
1975 20' Argosy 20
Chestfield , Kent
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 2,517
Although a few folks have dismantled Argosy/Classic motorhomes, unlike trailers where 'body-off' restorations are reasonably common (and well document), I don't remember seeing any thread, other than Bella's where the body has been removed from the chassis and then refitted.

Click image for larger version

Name:	105620.jpg
Views:	41
Size:	141.8 KB
ID:	323981

There have been other threads where folks have started the task of moving the body from one chassis to another, for example that of a pick-up, but none of these threads were completed. But unlike the P30 a pick-up chassis kicks up over the rear axle so it is not a straightforward swap.

Click image for larger version

Name:	548590.jpg
Views:	37
Size:	147.5 KB
ID:	323982

The frame on which our bodies sit is 'flat' so any replacement chassis also needs to be flat.

Click image for larger version

Name:	974746.jpg
Views:	38
Size:	194.3 KB
ID:	323985

Again there have been threads around possibly using the chassis from Mitsubishi Fuso and I remember Brett from Timeless Trailers wrote about re-chassis'ing his own motorhome in this thread, http://www.airforums.com/forums/f311...-140188-3.html, onto a Isuzu NQR chassis.

There are several '7.5 tonne' (16000lb) rated cab over engine chassis that could be used, in Europe (and available in both left and right hand drive) the most obvious option is the DAF LF45 range (made by Leyland Trucks) which use the PACCAR Cummins B engine (either 4 or 6BT), and can be purchase in high mileage but running condition for a little over $3000.

However, in order to remove the body your are first probably talking about completely gutting, so this is not a job to consider lightly.
martin300662 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2018, 09:19 PM   #4
2 Rivet Member
 
1977 24' Argosy 24
Space Coast , Florida
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 36
In the other thread you shared these Leyland trucks. I am very grateful.
A 4x4 chassis, manual tranny, cab over powered by cummins? It warrants consideration for sure.
I travel to out of the country about 5 times a month, and usually Europe. I am always in big cities and dream of having the Argosy to explore the places I can't see on a day off.
We had some serious repairs done well at exceedingly affordable prices in Eastern Europe. I have a friend living on a 65 foot trimaran that was completely retro-fitted in a Polish shipyard.
I'm excited to learn the possibilities.
Seems like the round trip ferry price could be the greatest expense.
Open, and hopeful, for advice from the right side of the pond.
mikeajana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2018, 02:12 AM   #5
Keen amature
 
martin300662's Avatar

 
1975 20' Argosy 20
Chestfield , Kent
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 2,517
One of the biggest issues is the logistics.

If you bring your motorhome to Europe as a temporary import then it has to return within a fixed time period (typically either 6 or 12months) or it is liable to importation duty. Equally if it was then taken back to US it would also then be subject to importation duty. We avoided this with Bella because we had owned her for more than 2 years and we were not allowed to sell her for over 1 year after importatio (the registration documentation was even marked as such in the first year). So up front you need to decide if you would be shipping 'permanently' or temporarily.

There is also some logistics about the donor truck. For example, when you purchase a vehicle in the UK you have to register it, once registered it can be used (when it needs to be taxed), SORN (this is a statutory off-road notice and notifies the government agency that the vehicle is in your position but not in use) or scraped. Even scraping is not straight forward as it has to happen at a authorized treatment facility (ATF). The other option would be to buy the donor for export, so for example buy in the UK (or another European country) but then export to Poland, it would avoid UK registration and taxation.

Also keep in mind is the actual registration. Our rigs have two VIN, the chassis VIN and the body VIN, the vehicle data-bases use the chassis VIN. Swapping the engine does not change the chassis VIN, obviously changing the chassis does, so check your current title. Both Bella and Peanut are titled on the chassis VIN so obviously changing the chassis would require that to be updated.

Last thing to consider logistically are the temporary export options. A temporary export to Europe, during which a chassis was changed, before re-importing may not even be noticed as the rig will look the same, however if it goes from this

Click image for larger version

Name:	24ft Argosy.JPG
Views:	34
Size:	115.5 KB
ID:	324060

to this

Click image for larger version

Name:	24ft Argosy on DAF 45 150 4x4.jpg
Views:	43
Size:	54.4 KB
ID:	324061

Someone may notice!

Equally a permanent export to Europe, with registration before the chassis swap (with the original VIN), then swap chassis would probably go unnoticed using the 4 x 2 chassis, maybe not with the 4 x 4. This opens another Pandora's Box in the UK as vehicles over 40 years old no longer need a state inspection (MOT) or pay tax, as long as the are unmodified from original spec. Because the 6BT was offered as an option on the Classics it could be argued that you are just changing from one build option to another, changing chassis would not count as unmodified.
martin300662 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2018, 12:18 PM   #6
2 Rivet Member
 
1977 24' Argosy 24
Space Coast , Florida
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 36
Thanks.
Great information.

I'm just brain storming, but the obvious thought would be to ship it directly to Poland and avoid the EU. After a rebuild, drive it around all of Europe for a while and ship it back. I'm guessing avoiding the UK for registration and donor "parts" would be helpful.

I can't imagine re-entry to the US would be difficult, especially if I'm driving in from Canada or Mexico on "a leg of a partial RTW (round the world) trip". The Argosy is obviously 40+ years old and would not change ownership or lapse the Florida registration.

While the monster truck effect is uber cool, the goal would be 4 wheel drive and a small increase in wheel size and ground clearance. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the van conversions (like sportsman 4x4) retain the original (ie Econoline) VIN and identity.
mikeajana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2018, 12:28 PM   #7
Keen amature
 
martin300662's Avatar

 
1975 20' Argosy 20
Chestfield , Kent
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 2,517
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeajana View Post
Thanks.
Great information.

I'm just brain storming, but the obvious thought would be to ship it directly to Poland and avoid the EU. After a rebuild, drive it around all of Europe for a while and ship it back. I'm guessing avoiding the UK for registration and donor "parts" would be helpful.

I can't imagine re-entry to the US would be difficult, especially if I'm driving in from Canada or Mexico on "a leg of a partial RTW (round the world) trip". The Argosy is obviously 40+ years old and would not change ownership or lapse the Florida registration.

While the monster truck effect is uber cool, the goal would be 4 wheel drive and a small increase in wheel size and ground clearance. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the van conversions (like sportsman 4x4) retain the original (ie Econoline) VIN and identity.
Poland is in Europe, and a member of the EU so subject to the laws of the federal government.

Van conversions do retain the VIN of the original van but our rigs are not van conversions, they are coach-built onto a commercial chassis (Class A).
martin300662 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2018, 11:39 PM   #8
2 Rivet Member
 
1977 24' Argosy 24
Space Coast , Florida
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by martin300662 View Post
Poland is in Europe, and a member of the EU so subject to the laws of the federal government.
Thanks, my bad. I'm usually not that dumb.
mikeajana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2018, 02:17 AM   #9
Keen amature
 
martin300662's Avatar

 
1975 20' Argosy 20
Chestfield , Kent
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 2,517
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeajana View Post
Thanks, my bad. I'm usually not that dumb.
Don't beat yourself up, if you asked most folks in the UK they would have thought the same! It is one of the reasons 'Europe' is not working (IMO) countries that were outside Europe, became Eastern European now are central European as the border continues to be expanded eastward as new countries join. If the US was the same as Europe your southern border would be along the Brazil/Peru boundary and then be surprised when the lower 48 are full of trucks from French Guiana!
martin300662 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2018, 09:45 AM   #10
2 Rivet Member
 
1977 24' Argosy 24
Space Coast , Florida
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 36
I'm usually better than that one.....
We spent the summer running around the Ukraine, Latvia, Estonia, Belarus and Poland; guilty by association.
I'm researching the DAF LF55's. I could have an Argosy Roadrunner,
or Off-Roadunner. I'm assuming the DAF cummins diesels are all turbo?

Any direction is appreciated. I assume they will be available anywhere in Europe, where would you suggest searching for the best donor?
mikeajana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2018, 12:14 PM   #11
Keen amature
 
martin300662's Avatar

 
1975 20' Argosy 20
Chestfield , Kent
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 2,517
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeajana View Post
I'm usually better than that one.....
We spent the summer running around the Ukraine, Latvia, Estonia, Belarus and Poland; guilty by association.
I'm researching the DAF LF55's. I could have an Argosy Roadrunner,
or Off-Roadunner. I'm assuming the DAF cummins diesels are all turbo?

Any direction is appreciated. I assume they will be available anywhere in Europe, where would you suggest searching for the best donor?
Personally I would be looking for an earlier unit, as the LF use the ISB5.9 and already had a whole load of electronics being added. There are pre-98 45/55/65 floating around that would be a more straight forward swap. Not all are turbo and many of the 45/55 use the 4BT not the 6BT

As for best market, I would do a bit of research on driving license laws across the European countries. In 1998 they were all standardized and a regular car license is only good to 3.5tonne. In some countries before that a car license could drive up to 7.5tonne. Why this could be key is the used value relates to potential market, so a 7.5tonne truck is worth less is in a market where less folks can drive it. A truck bigger than 7.5tonne will have a low resale value as you can only drive with a HGV license.
martin300662 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2018, 01:21 PM   #12
2 Rivet Member
 
1977 24' Argosy 24
Space Coast , Florida
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by martin300662 View Post
Personally I would be looking for an earlier unit, as the LF use the ISB5.9 and already had a whole load of electronics being added. There are pre-98 45/55/65 floating around that would be a more straight forward swap. Not all are turbo and many of the 45/55 use the 4BT not the 6BT

As for best market, I would do a bit of research on driving license laws across the European countries. In 1998 they were all standardized and a regular car license is only good to 3.5tonne. In some countries before that a car license could drive up to 7.5tonne. Why this could be key is the used value relates to potential market, so a 7.5tonne truck is worth less is in a market where less folks can drive it. A truck bigger than 7.5tonne will have a low resale value as you can only drive with a HGV license.
Definitely after 6 cylinder turbo so we can take the boat or motorcycles.

.

So I have a stupid question: How much is 7.5 tonne converted to our neolithic standard of measurement in non-British pounds, without being confused with pounds sterling (which will buy a nice lunch of Fish and chips, or crisps or fries).

To your earlier statement, we would definitely want a temporary export to the EU to have work done in Poland. We would definitely leave the EU to explore Eastern Europe before she returns Stateside. The DAF-leyland truck would only need a quick trip to the maintenance facility, where it would donate the maximum amount of it's parts to drivetrain and chassis parts.
mikeajana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2018, 01:31 PM   #13
Dazed and Confused
 
Isuzusweet's Avatar

 
Currently Looking...
1983 31' Airstream310
Hillsburgh , Ontario
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 3,353
IMHO Buying one of these commercial trucks and placing an Argosy body on top presents a host of new problems....

Meeting DOT regulations of your peticular country you live in; let alone the one you drive into.

Being able to assimilate both the chassis electrics to the Argosy electrics. For example: I was looking at an Isuzu 4HK1-TC swap but decided that intergrating the electronics of the Isuzu into the Argosy for dashboard gauges and the like would have been insane.

Also these are commercial vehicles, with possibly front beam with spring axles up front and really heavy duty spring axles out back; giving you a ride akin to an old western buckboard. I'd drive the truck before I'd dive into it.

I'm finding easier to just replace the 454 with the Cummins. Any problems marrying Dodge to Chev have been thought out long ago, and there's a huge aftermarket parts source to help out with the conversion, from motor mounts, to different exhaust manifold configurations.

Cheers
Sidekick Tony
__________________
Per Mare, Per Terram and may all your campaigns be successful.

Its a recession when your neighbor loses his job; its a depression when you lose your own. "Harry S Truman"
Isuzusweet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2018, 02:02 PM   #14
Keen amature
 
martin300662's Avatar

 
1975 20' Argosy 20
Chestfield , Kent
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 2,517
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isuzusweet View Post
IMHO Buying one of these commercial trucks and placing an Argosy body on top presents a host of new problems....

Meeting DOT regulations of your peticular country you live in; let alone the one you drive into.

Being able to assimilate both the chassis electrics to the Argosy electrics. For example: I was looking at an Isuzu 4HK1-TC swap but decided that intergrating the electronics of the Isuzu into the Argosy for dashboard gauges and the like would have been insane.

Also these are commercial vehicles, with possibly front beam with spring axles up front and really heavy duty spring axles out back; giving you a ride akin to an old western buckboard. I'd drive the truck before I'd dive into it.

I'm finding easier to just replace the 454 with the Cummins. Any problems marrying Dodge to Chev have been thought out long ago, and there's a huge aftermarket parts source to help out with the conversion, from motor mounts, to different exhaust manifold configurations.

Cheers
Sidekick Tony
I definitely agree about driving the truck first, and the 45 which is basically the same chassis as the medium weight Kenworth K270.

I guess I was also considering this as a body swap....ie the dash instruments and electrics would all come from the donor with just the chassis lighting circuits connecting to the original lights.

In order to do the body swap everything else would be removed so really would be more of a new van conversion than a rebuild.
__________________

martin300662 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Argosy Drivetrain Swap mprokop87 Argosy Motorhomes 16 02-06-2016 06:47 PM
'78 Argosy converter swap wildwetz Batteries, Univolts, Converters & Inverters 15 01-26-2015 07:57 AM
1977 Argosy 20' w/454...Shall I swap to Fuel Injection?? Your Comments Welcome! jbsails Mechanics Corner - Engines, Transmission & More... 24 02-01-2012 10:31 AM
Argosy Engine swap beemergb Argosy Motorhomes 3 11-07-2011 09:14 PM
Narrow body/Wide body jcanavera Our Community 11 04-05-2006 02:25 PM


Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Airstream, Inc. or any of its affiliates. Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.