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Old 11-18-2009, 04:44 PM   #85
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When given an opportunity to be creative and constructive, the same old purveyors of cliches, and trite continue on.
I gotta be so dense. Splain it to me please. Peewee could you be specific when you make your broader statements against unnamed individuals? I think it is only fitting if you are going to make negative comments that you direct them so they can be challenged.
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Old 11-18-2009, 05:48 PM   #86
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The idea, as I see it, is not a club, but clubs, groups, gatherings and so on. Some would be a one time rally, others more things. If some people want a better WBCCI, but not called the WBCCI, fine; others will want somewhat smaller and less organized groups.

The potential is limitless.

How it functions is determined by the personalities of its members and their group dynamic. It may not have "members". It doesn't have to have membership cards. But it can—that's up to the group to determine.

Here's how I think it will develop. Someone will get tired of reading this thread and find out how to get a page on the Forum. They'll come up with a name and some sort of affinity standard. For ex.: "I want to get together with Airstreamers from the Colorado Plateau and have a rally in southern Utah somewhere. We can form a group and discuss how to do that at a rally. I guess it could include Forum members from a larger area, let's see how it works. One rule—no dogs weighing less than 15 pounds because their barks are so high pitched they drive me nuts. How does the weekend of April 15th sound?" Note: this is an example, not me organizing this. It's that simple to start something.

But it could be any sort of affinity group—geographical, vintage, A/S MoHo's, or people getting friends together (friends locally, friends from the Forum) and inviting others to join them at a rally, a meeting, something.

Insurance is an issue. Waivers don't always work. I think the solution would be for the Forum to cover this. A larger organization can get better rates than a small one with no track record. Liability and D&O (directors and officers) can protect. But insurance companies do not like amorphous organizations without officers and directors—it's too new and different for their small minds, so I think there are some hurdles involved. Insurance means dues, though they can be modest if enough people are involved. I hope Andy is thinking about this.

Gene
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Old 11-18-2009, 05:52 PM   #87
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Pro rated dues...

Another thing I would like to see in a new club is pro rated dues.

Dues should be assessed to cover the time of the fiscal year that the member(s) is/are in the club.

It has never made any sense to me when I see organizations charging new members the same amount of money for (pick a number), one month, six months, etc., as someone who is a member for the entire 12 months of the year.

Jim
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Old 11-18-2009, 06:14 PM   #88
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It's easy to have dues come due on the anniversary date of joining, especially with computers. If you are still in the Dark Ages, it may be insurmountable. Colorado State Parks just figured out how to do that when you get an annual pass.

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Old 11-18-2009, 06:20 PM   #89
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First, Stephanie, I respectfully disagree. I don't see people complaining about getting financially shortchanged by the WBCCI. I see former members and potential members frustrated by a calcified organization. It's not the money; it's the resistance to change. To borrow a quote from the mythical Terrance Mann, "it's money we have, and peace we lack."

As for "challenging people to think," that puts you in the position of facilitating the discussion rather than participating in it. While I understand the intent, I think the conversation is best served by allowing people to challenge themselves.

Ah, and let's not forget PeeWee. PeeWee supports the WBCCI extant. He also speaks in the language of faith, of certainty and of religion. It's something I've developed an ear for over the years. I've learned--from hard experience--that for a true believer in any cause (particularly professional football teams), there is no conversation; only degrees of proselytizing and condemnation. I've found discussion with my fellow heretics far more enjoyable.
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Old 11-18-2009, 06:29 PM   #90
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Huh????

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrawfordGene View Post
It's easy to have dues come due on the anniversary date of joining, especially with computers. If you are still in the Dark Ages, it may be insurmountable. Colorado State Parks just figured out how to do that when you get an annual pass.

Gene
I admit that I am not the sharpest tack in the pack but I do not understand what the anniversary date for joining has to do with paying dues for new members beyond the initial payment for the period of time remaining in the current fiscal year of the organization.

The only time pro rating dues comes into play is the first year someone joins an organization.

The assumption is that dues for the year are due at the first of the fiscal year for the organization. Everyone who is a member at that time pays at that time for the entire upcoming year.

For those who join during later months in the year a lesser amount is charged based on the number of months remaining in the fiscal year.

At the start of the next fiscal year these folks now pay the full amount for the coming year, just like everyone else.

I sure do not see this as anything complicated. Seems like very simple and fair math to me.

Jim
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Old 11-18-2009, 07:12 PM   #91
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I That's why I maintain that any new club will need some sort of reason for being that makes people want to be a part of it.
Stephanie has gotten to the core of the issue.

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Old 11-18-2009, 07:58 PM   #92
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I would like to clear up any misconception of the dues for the WBCCI. Yes, the dues are paid for a calender year. However, if a member joins after the 1st of July, their membership is good untill the end of the next year.
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Old 11-18-2009, 08:23 PM   #93
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Jim, pro rating is one way of dealing with dues inequity. Another is maintaining an anniversary date based on when one joins. The advantages of the latter method is that the organization always receives the same amount so long the amount of annual dues does not change, membership renewal forms do not have to be sent all at once (quite a burden on volunteers or employees), and the organization receives income steadily through the year. If the organization gets it all at once, it may overspend because it's got it all at once assuming it's not already running deficits.

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Old 11-18-2009, 08:56 PM   #94
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Hmmmm.....

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Originally Posted by CrawfordGene View Post
Jim, pro rating is one way of dealing with dues inequity. Another is maintaining an anniversary date based on when one joins. The advantages of the latter method is that the organization always receives the same amount so long the amount of annual dues does not change, membership renewal forms do not have to be sent all at once (quite a burden on volunteers or employees), and the organization receives income steadily through the year. If the organization gets it all at once, it may overspend because it's got it all at once assuming it's not already running deficits.

Gene
Gene,

I'm not trying to be contentious but forward thinking.

In your previous post you implied that a computer system was needed to do the tracking of the data. Pro rated dues eliminates that as an issue as well as the need for people to do the task.

Given that many of the responses to this post suggest/imply that any new club should make very good use of the internet and web technology I don't see an issue with sending email to all of the members, in addition to a "blerb" (technical term) on the home page of the organization's web site when it is, "that time of year".

Surely this would not be an imposition on volunteers. One of the benefits of using the internet and computers is using software to automate as many things as possible; annual mass email being one of these.

Personally I do not see the need for an office staff (employees) at all, unless the members should decide that they need something like that. But the volume of members to support such a structure would be huge I would think. And, dues would definitely reflect the cost of something like this. Without an office staff dues can be minimized.

And, this does raise the issue of where the organization is "officially" located as far as the federal and state governments are concerned. Some states require a physical office space (Ohio, for example). Others do not have such a requirement and a PO Box will suffice (Delaware, for example).

Any new organization, here in the 21st century, really needs to focus its member communications by way of electronic media, IMNSHO. The days of having to spend money on physical paper are long gone; the same for the postage expense that goes with mailing and editing and publishing. Making good use of the internet really can reduce expenses significantly. Members can read things on line or, at their individual option, download and print it if that is what they prefer. This way the organization does not have to front the expense OR the collection of monies to pay for such things.

And, annual dues do change; for lots of different reasons. Why would one want to create a system that would have impacts if the dues structure should change when it is pretty much a given that the dues structure will change in the future?

As for the income, it is steady at that which is collected at the time dues are due at the start of the fiscal year and this is all that can be used to forecast the annual budget. Any incremental income due to new members would not be, in my mind, significant enough that I would be willing to use them for a prediction for budgetary purposes.

Any organization that cannot create a basic budget forecast at the start of its annual year based on its fixed income is doomed to failure. And if it can do such a forecast and it cannot operate within its budget it deserves to fail for plain ordinary incompetence IMNSHO.

Jim
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Old 11-18-2009, 09:05 PM   #95
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Gene,


Given that many of the responses to this post suggest/imply that any new club should make very good use of the internet and web technology I don't see an issue with sending email to all of the members, in addition to a "blerb" (technical term) on the home page of the organization's web site when it is, "that time of year".

Surely this would not be an imposition on volunteers. One of the benefits of using the internet and computers is using software to automate as many things as possible; annual mass email being one of these.

Personally I do not see the need for an office staff (employees) at all, unless the members should decide that they need something like that. But the volume of members to support such a structure would be huge I would think. And, dues would definitely reflect the cost of something like this. Without an office staff dues can be minimized.

And, this does raise the issue of where the organization is "officially" located as far as the federal and state governments are concerned. Some states require a physical office space (Ohio, for example). Others do not have such a requirement and a PO Box will suffice (Delaware, for example).

Any new organization, here in the 21st century, really needs to focus its member communications by way of electronic media, IMNSHO. The days of having to spend money on physical paper are long gone; the same for the postage expense that goes with mailing and editing and publishing. Making good use of the internet really can reduce expenses significantly. Members can read things on line or, at their individual option, download and print it if that is what they prefer. This way the organization does not have to front the expense OR the collection of monies to pay for such things.

As for the income, it is steady at that which is collected at the time dues are due at the start of the fiscal year and this is all that can be used to forecast the annual budget. Any incremental income due to new members would not be, in my mind, significant enough that I would be willing to use them for a prediction for budgetary purposes.

Any organization that cannot create a basic budget forecast at the start of its annual year based on its fixed income is doomed to failure. And if it can do such a forecast and it cannot operate within its budget it deserves to fail for plain ordinary incompetence IMNSHO.

Jim
I never thought I would agree with you Jim

I agree
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Old 11-18-2009, 09:15 PM   #96
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As for "challenging people to think," that puts you in the position of facilitating the discussion rather than participating in it. While I understand the intent, I think the conversation is best served by allowing people to challenge themselves.
I was trying to participate by asking people what they thought a new club was needed for. I was genuinely interested in finding out and discussing it. My mistake, I was still at the 'why do we need another club phase'. Obviously there are people who feel a new club is needed and are concerned now with how to manage it. I will leave you to it. Obviously this is not for me.
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Old 11-18-2009, 09:27 PM   #97
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You don't need a computer to keep track of membership and dues, but it's easier. You usually start with index cards (do they still make them? Probably). There are computer programs to manage data bases and send e-mails at any period you choose—monthly, quarterly, annually. If money comes in monthly, you can manage income more easily and track it better. You can watch income more closely.

For a small group, such things are not worth worrying about. For a large one, yes. A small group putting out notice of a rally, will not have to set up a data base unless someone in the group knows how and wants to.

I only raised the dues issue because of insurance question. Insurance companies have the effect of driving an informal group towards conventional structure.

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Old 11-18-2009, 09:33 PM   #98
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Why does a small group need ins. if you are so worried have people sign a disclaimer, like some Dr's do ,that you can not sue.
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