How would you structure a new AS Club?

[norsea]

Originally Posted by gail

Why does a small group need ins. if you are so worried have people sign a disclaimer, like some Dr's do ,that you can not sue.

Gail,

The following is based on an actual experience.

I was involved in the United States Cycling Federation for many years. This group sanctions and provides the rules structure in the USA for bicycle racing.

All participants sign wavers stating that they will not hold the USCF or its officials, etc., responsible should they be injured, etc., etc., etc.

In one of the races I worked a rider pulled in front of a vehicle of one of the race officials and his bicycle was knocked to the ground.

His mother sued the vehicle operator and the USCF even though she has signed the waiver.

While she did not prevail, an attorney had to be hired to defend the person operating the vehicle and the organization. The waiver was brought up during the initial deposition.

The point of all this is that once the attorney's get involved the only way the situation can be dealt with is by way of the legal system and that costs money.

Fortunately the attorney's fee for appearing on behalf of the vehicle operator were provided by insurance that covered all of the officials at the event.

I don't know about you, but $325.00 and hour for 5 hours was more than I would have wanted to pay for that service which is what it would have cost if we were not insured.

Jim

[Buttercup]

Originally Posted by Stefrobrts

I was trying to participate by asking people what they thought a new club was needed for. I was genuinely interested in finding out and discussing it. My mistake, I was still at the 'why do we need another club phase'. Obviously there are people who feel a new club is needed and are concerned now with how to manage it. I will leave you to it. Obviously this is not for me.

Steph - if you want to know why we need a new club, look at these forums and any thread that talks about WBCCI - you will find your answer there. WBCCI is not meeting the needs of the demographic of the buyers of New and Vintage Airstreams.
It is and has been a hot topic overall and you as a moderator already know that people can be very expressive on the issue. Point being, there is already enough info as to why so many desire a new direction. They will not get it through WBCCI - so they seek an alternate form of relief. people want to meet, greet and gather over a common theme. WBCCI is a dual identity organization - that if the leadership that is out of touch with the needs of the membership (otherwise this thread would not exist), and those who desire to have free experiences that do not require a red coat to enjoy.
Why spend $55+ for rules and militaristic regulations when you can have an enjoyable forums gathering free (except for normal camping fees). The AirForums is the new model of camping enjoyment. WBCCI is on the path to dissolution - and in no small part due to the overburdened leadership requirements on the club.
Airforums only require that you pay your own camping dues and not much else - a better value for the $$$. No wonder folks are gathering here and not at WBCCI.....
I have been to numerous AirForums gatherings and I can say for fact that the AirForums rallies I have attended have has no drama and have been the best value for the $$$.
WBCCI... Well, just look at the $480 for International rally fees - what for???

[hampstead38]

I'm not really sure I could make it to 500+ rallies a year.

Seriously, 65GT, your post really doesn't make much sense to me. As best I can tell, your answer is "Golden Corral." Yeah, the food isn't great, but there are a ton of locations and it's all you can eat for one price. (My apologies to Golden Corral devotees.)

For me, it's not all about "rallies." My wife and I plan to do Burning Man while on hiatus. We may hit Sturgis sans hog. We're certainly going to do charity work and service projects while on the road. What a long strange trip we hope it will be.

Honestly, I don't think I'd enjoy sitting down with every person I've ever encountered on the Airforums. And I'm quite positive that every member of Airforums would not enjoy sitting down with me. I don't care how many members an organization has, six or 600,000. I don't care if I get a beanie or a nametag or the title of first assistant vice chair of the dark laundry committee. If a new "club" emerges (niche or not), it will be far more organic and flexible than the WBCCI. (It would pretty much have to be.) I imagine it will be more a loose confederation than an autocracy. And my hope is that it would be more focused on engaging the world outside of the aluminum shell.

[Frank's Trailer Works]

Even in this simple discussion of how a new club might be structured, no one is happy.

Sure am glad everyone has the solutions and what is best.

*April 8- 11 Cherry Blossom Rally Upper Marlboro MD
*May 14-16 Vintage Trailering Rally Somerset Pa
*June 4-6 Crawfish Rally Augusta NJ (I am hosting)
*June 24- 28 Wally Byam Birthday Bash (I am hosting)
*July 16- 18 Cow town Rodeo Rally (I am hosting)
*Later in July two weeks in Newfoundland(as a family)
*August 7-14 Outerbanks Rally NC
*September 2-6 Highpoint Rally Highpoint Pa
*September 16-19 Trap Pond State Park Rally Laurel De
*October 7-10 Installation Rally Gettysburg Pa
*Not given dates yet are the six or so weekend trips to a State Park within four hours of Baltimore. They are all T.B.A.
*There is also an east Coast Vintage Rally hosted by Rideair that has a date T.B.A.

Not 500+, but what I am planning to do this coming camping season. Hope you all figure out the structure of your utopian society. But just realize, as soon as you figure out the ideal, along will come a small vocal group that will not be happy with that either.

[Gene]

One's personal definition of a "club" determines what they want in a club. If you want a traditional type of organization, then you will get that. The WBCCI or the BetterWBCCI will satisfy that. Things do change, however, and some people want to redefine "club".

Gene

[wheel interested]

Originally Posted by pmclemore

Stephanie has gotten to the core of the issue.

Pat

Originally Posted by Stefrobrts

That's why I maintain that any new club will need some sort of reason for being that makes people want to be a part of it.

Leaving the questions of organization and structure to those that have a flair for the mechanics and implementation of club order, I agree with Pat and Stephanie.

The reason I joined WBCCI is to be part of the living history of the original and oldest Airstream club as an Airstream owner and enthusiast. At 20 dollars for a membership card and newsletter, I'd be fine. But having to pay $70-75 dollars a year and rumours of increases for the privilege of being a member is steep enough to make me want change before I become completely priced out, not having enough $$$ to be a "quality" and quiet member.

We aren't normally club joiners. There was a reason we joined WBCCI. There is also a reason why I would like to see it change rather than walk away or join another affiliation. As others Air Forums has satisfied our desire to seek out and meet many other Airstreamers with similar interests from all over the world, more than the exposure and opportunities that our local unit would bring. And Air Forums does it for us without charge and is ever refining itself and benefits through members and administration seamlessly.

What I want from WBCCI is representation, a vote, disclosure of all club business, communication and access to efficient and dedicated leadership, equality, and fair practices and fun and interesting and affordable events offered that the greatest majority of membership can participate in and benefit from and enjoy.

[Ike T]

Originally Posted by Chief

If one wants to see "my humble opinion" of what a new club would be......just come on down and join us for "Canopener 2010" in January. There should be approximately 50 Airstreams in attendance....

Chief has it right.

For site camping at an established location, there is little need for organizational overhead. A couple of volunteers and some advance communication, you've got all you need for a smooth event.

For camping at non-standard locations and caravanning, I do see need for organizational overhead by hiring a service provider to satisfy that need.

I apologize in advance if I've disappointed anyone by not suggesting rules, dues, officers, schedules, dress codes, and penalties/fines. In the world of recreation and leisure, those notions are quickly dying.

[hampstead38]

I hear what you're saying, Gene, but I don't think it's possible to have that discussion here. Once the word "club" drops into the conversation, the WBCCI and all of its baggage--positive and negative--comes along. Some of us are interested in the "post-club" universe. After all, it's hardly just the membership of the WBCCI that is falling like a stone. Since we both seem to agree that many humans have a need for social connections, I'm intrigued as to how these new social arrangements will evolve. When I'm passing through--having not nearly the fun I could be having at WBCCI rallies--I'll look forward to hearing your thoughts.

[PeeWee]

Originally Posted by wheel interested

I gotta be so dense. Splain it to me please. Peewee could you be specific when you make your broader statements against unnamed individuals? I think it is only fitting if you are going to make negative comments that you direct them so they can be challenged.

If the shoe fits wear it.

If my comments are negative they are definitely never directed towards the Club or Airstream. I said if.

I only encourage that negative energy be turned into a constructive, revitalization of the Club. If needed and where needed.

I will never get into a "wee wee" contest with an individual. Not worth the time and not worth the effort. But it is always worth while to have a constructive, unified, pleasant approach to those efforts required to maintain or even turn an organization around.

That's all. Let sanity prevail!

[Buttercup]

I am just curious but a thought popped into my head (that happens so rarely that I take notice when they do).

If a new club in any shape or form does develop, why would WBCCI care? Why try to sell a club to people who obviously see it as not a value to them. The WBCCI isn't suddenly going to become the club of dreams for everybody.

To me that is like telling people who drink Pepsi that they would be better served drinking Coke instead and not to bother with Pepsi. But you don't like Coke - you like Pepsi and want to hang out with other people who also like Pepsi and not Coke. You get the point...

If folks discuss the concepts of building a new Airstream Camping Club, why try to impede that by saying that all you need is WBCCI? That is just not the case.

Personally, I find this discussion interesting if only for the fact that for a large part, this thread isn't even about WBCCI - it is about what a new club could be like.

It could be easily argued that Airforums as it exists is the nebulous beginnings of a new club, forming out of the desired of folks who just cant do the Red Coat Camping plan. They want a simple, no rules experience - WBCCI doesn't have a monopoly on that. They aren't the only game in town. Airforums may not (yet) be able to boast of having 500+ camping events, but that doesn't invalidate the gatherings that do go on.

So rather than try to quash these discussions with the "you don't need it cause we have WBCCI" statements, lets see what actually does form out of this. It will not hurt a thing....

[wheel interested]

Originally Posted by PeeWee

If the shoe fits wear it.

If my comments are negative they are definitely never directed towards the Club or Airstream. I said if.

I only encourage that negative energy be turned into a constructive, revitalization of the Club. If needed and where needed.

I will never get into a "wee wee" contest with an individual. Not worth the time and not worth the effort. But it is always worth while to have a constructive, unified, pleasant approach to those efforts required to maintain or even turn an organization around.

That's all. Let sanity prevail!

That will work. That's the way I did think the thread was going. I guess I will go back and look. As I said I must be dense to not have seen the construction in your comments that critiqued other posters comments! Always good to have a coach and tally man for reference. Carry on.

I just think if people are to be solicited to freely contribute their ideas and thoughts to a thread that asks their opinion, we should not denergrate their efforts because we don't agree, who ever or what ever it is.

[Frank's Trailer Works]

Originally Posted by hampstead38

I'm not really sure I could make it to 500+ rallies a year.


For me, it's not all about "rallies." My wife and I plan to do Burning Man while on hiatus. We may hit Sturgis sans hog. We're certainly going to do charity work and service projects while on the road. What a long strange trip we hope it will be.

If a new "club" emerges (niche or not), it will be far more organic and flexible than the WBCCI. (It would pretty much have to be.) I imagine it will be more a loose confederation than an autocracy. And my hope is that it would be more focused on engaging the world outside of the aluminum shell.

Ken, You will have to go to at least one rally so you can understand just how loose the confederacy is. You speak of life outside the aluminum shell, well there is. I have often said you must experience things first hand to understand. I often say that one cannot just read here what it is all about. But when I say "speak from first hand experience" I am told how wrong I am to make that statement. I personally invited you to our Units Cherry Blossom Rally so you could see first hand what our Unit is all about. Your daughter was getting married(congrates on that, hope your new son in law is a stand up guy)Had you come, you might have seen the van so full of donated food that the driver had to unload some of the donations into another vehicle so it was safe enough to drive. At another rally we had turkey dinner for everyone. The soup kitchen in Norwich also had turkey dinner for anyone that wanted it, for we made sure we were feeding them too. They were even able to make soup from all the stuff we sent them and feed others for a few days. I was also astonished to see all the toys donated at Madison WI for children that are in need. Is that the kind of "life outside the shell", "charity work" you are speaking of? People try to keep their charity work quiet. It is bad form to brag about it. That is the reason you probably have never read about it here.
Once again, I hope you will come down to Upper Marlboro in April and camp with us or just come for happy hour. That way when you make blanket statements you will be talking from knowledge not what others have written. Heck I might just be talking some crap and none of it ever happened. Find out for yourself.

[Frank's Trailer Works]

Originally Posted by hampstead38

I hear what you're saying, Gene, but I don't think it's possible to have that discussion here. Once the word "club" drops into the conversation, the WBCCI and all of its baggage--positive and negative--comes along. Some of us are interested in the "post-club" universe. After all, it's hardly just the membership of the WBCCI that is falling like a stone. Since we both seem to agree that many humans have a need for social connections, I'm intrigued as to how these new social arrangements will evolve. When I'm passing through--having not nearly the fun I could be having at WBCCI rallies--I'll look forward to hearing your thoughts.

Ken, you talk as if you climbed the mountain and found no view from the top. Sorry, but you just bought your trailer last year and have not even camped in it yet. It was in SC and then somewhere else to have serious issues worked on. You have no idea if the WB or the Airforums or anywhere else is the right fit for you. You talk of "post club" how is that? Don't you need to be in a club to then be post club? You are interested in "new social arrangements"... what are your old ones? Why is it you are such an expert on the failings of the club(and in "club", I mean the WBCCI)?

As Gene pointed out, this thread is to talk about structure of a new club not the problems with the existing one. Perhaps the thread is actually a means to gain insight into what could be done to correct what already exists. Perhaps Fred started this as a marketing survey. What ever the point is, the usual 20 or so suspects(my self included) that are talking here are not speak for the whole. We are just a very small handful of voices and there are many that go unheard due to their unwillingness to debate in this fashion.

Fred wanted to know how a new club would be structured. Here is my two cents on that. I would model it after the WB. The first thing I would do is decapitate the organization. Completely do away with all the leadership positions both on the unit level, regional, and international. I would have each unit elect a delegate that represents the wishes of each unit. Delegates would meet via the internet once a month to debate and vote on issues that arise. The minority will always follow the majority. I would continue to have the head office and give all the people working there a 20% pay raise. Their job is thankless and difficult. They are paid very little for what they do. I would fire the entire staff of the Blue Beret and hire a new staff. All new writers all new look. I would make the BB a magazine advertiser seek out because of the demographic it gets to. Charge for ad space within in a real manor. Oh, and skymed.... no more than a quarter page ad. Maybe an ad below or above it to balance the sickness insurance with something for the heathy. International would still go on, just not for the reasons it does now. Business would be all taken care of via internet, so the venue would be chosen for it's camp ability. International would be mandated to turn a profit. I just do not get why it always operates in a loss. All those attending would pay the same price for their visits. No more stay for 27 days for the same price as those coming for 7. No more perks of office. No more 45% of attendees are volunteers. Everyone attending should volunteer. I would increase dues. 50/50 split between the units and head office. I know the WB is a non profit, we just spend the profit on making a better International or unit level experience. The most formal aspect of International would be the happy hour and potluck lines. A strict "no tie, no coat, or no service" policy would be instituted. I would also require each member to host a rally. Hosting a rally is a very gratifying experience. I am hosting or co hosting three next year.

So have at it. Shred my ideas. Point out the flaws in my thoughts...

[Gene]

The posts on a new "club" seem to split between a better WBCCI and something entirely different, maybe not a "club". This gets confusing in one thread. I tried to use "group" to distinguish from a "club". I think it's just about impossible to predict what will be invented by someone that reflects changes that are occurring now. It'll just happen and if it makes sense to a lot of people, it will work.

Twitter came out of nowhere, some type of group will too. Patience folks. Some creative person will surprise us. The wheel is obvious once you see it and every one says "why didn't I think of that?"

Gene

[hampstead38]

First, the civilities. Our new son-in-law is an Air Force Academy graduate, pilot and officer doing his master's degree in Ohio. Happily married, our daughter is completing a master's in social work degree. We couldn't love our children more, including our son-in-law, thank you for asking, Frank.

Now that we've dispensed with the pleasantries, Frank, I really don't appreciate seeing details of PM exchanges six months ago showing up in forum posts. I don't appreciate you trying to make this about my personal experiences (or lack thereof) with the WBCCI. You've already tried this approach with Gene. According to you, a person cannot have an opinion about an organization without having participated in it. I simply can't understand this perspective... as a person who has a good deal of his life savings tied up in stocks in companies for whom I've never worked, or even stepped foot inside their offices. Think about it, Frank, I'm staking my family's financial future based on what I know about organizations I evaluate from the outside.

I suspect Gene is right. We'll know the future when it gets here. Maybe it will look something like the WDCU, but the WDCU is not the WBCCI.

Right now, Frank, you're underwriting an organization with falling membership, failing finances and an International leadership that apparently soaks up $125k a year in travel reimbursements. Now, if you want to do that, fine. I could go to a 100 rallies, but that doesn't change the fundamentals. An organization losing members and losing money is simply not sustainable in the long run. Ceteris paribus, something has to change.

You take this stuff incredibly seriously, Frank, Airstreams, the WBBCI, the WDCU. You've even started your own trailer restoration business. When I've listened to you on the VAP, Frank, I flash back on elementary school when there was always at least one kid who so desperately wanted to be part of the "cool crowd." Occasionally, it was me.

You're a "true believer," Frank. Like most missionaries, you're a nice person whose intensity and zeal makes me nervous. It's like discussing liberation theology with a fundamentalist, Frank (an exercise I have tried and now avoid). You don't seem able to "shoot the bull" about this stuff without taking everything way too seriously and getting personal.

I honestly hope the WDCU grows, that your business is successful and that you become the next Colin Hyde on the VAP, Frank. I appreciate the invitation to a rally earlier this year, but if my wife and I are inclined to attend a WBCCI event this year--we'll find one on our own.

[47WeeWind]

Well, it looks like we had so much new "structure" was added during the past few days that the server crashed last night under the weight!

To clarify, I have no agenda, am not doing a marketing survey, and am not starting a new club. There. I'm simply looking for ideas on newer, hopefully better ways of organizing AS activities using the tools that have recently become available, such as the Internet and forums like this one, and the tools that are on and just over the horizon. The idea of a "structure" I'm interested in is something that is flexible enough today to work well 5 years down the road, which can be an eternity given the accelerating rate of change in today's society.

The "5 years forward" set point is designed to cause people to stretch their brains a lot rather than just assemble something using what's available today. It's design to engage the imagination and likely will cause people's heads to hurt from hard imagineering and peering that far into the future.

Change will come, like it or not. As Gene suggests, it's not possible to accurately predict what might exist a few years down the road because frequently enough curve balls come out of left field. But those who think about future possibilities in creative ways should be better prepared to adopt or run with it than those who just stumble into the future.

The structural ideas I'm asking for could (in theory, practical realities aside) be adopted by any club, even perhaps my lovely old grey-haired hide-bound WBCCI (if the trailers line up celestially!). Many Units in the WBCCI have already implemented such ideas and are doing very well. Now, I'm not trying to ignite the Club Wars. But I do recognize the existing clubs, units and internet forums provide an undeniable real-life baseline of human behavior that, like it or not, will anchor all flights of fancy club structure.

IMHO, this forum is just a communications tool, a party-line telephone on steroids with semi-permanent texting and graphics capability accessible at one's convenience. Although many hang out here as their virtual Airstream clubhouse, as do I, it has not IMO quite yet became a club. Its not that it cannot; its just that something still seems missing, an ingredient I cannot quite identify is missing. The recipe needs more spice, the one that - you know - taste like . . .whatdayacallit? Perhaps its the old tribal thing, but I need to sit around a real campfire with real smoke in my eyes discussing with real people how to better the world!

Another concern is preserving history. If one subscribes and saves old magazines, on his or her passing relatives can physically see the magazines and perhaps donate or sell them to to appreciative parties. But when I kick the bucket, will my executors review my hard drive, copy it by subject matter onto separate DVDs and put all my old Airstream stuff, jeep stuff and Power Wagon stuff on the grarage sale table for purchase and preservation? Or will they just smash or wipe clean my hard drive with all that great history in an effort to protect my privacy . . or because it takes too much time and trouble to pass on my vintage electrons? How many hard drives have you seen on garage sale tables vs. old magazines?

Should any club worth its rivets use a structure that combines a near permanent record of its subject matter interest - a magazine - with the far less permanent electronic media of the Internet for tasking? Should a club be Internet + magazine + gatherings? How much past 78 year Airstream history would be available today if the sole recording medium used by all past Airstream owners was digital and not physical? Does any club owe a duty to future generations?

Anyway, a great range of good ideas have been contributed from many viewpoints, from the foundational to the practical and beyond. I believe any club or unit could adopt or incorporate some of the ideas presented here. The more successful ones have and will. Please continue to post your "structural" ideas. Thanks!

[wxbuoy]

You are all wrong. I have seen nothing but bickering, talk about structure, what is right, what is wrong, do this, do that. Everyone has missed the core element even, the starter of this thread. Structure is not the problem, vision is. What about a simple vision statement? A simple doctrine saying this is what we believe in. Structure follows purpose. The founding fathers came up with the declaration of Independence and the bill of rights before they got into the details of the current convoluted mess.
A simple validation of the creed that started the whole thing to begin with would be in order. Just like the Constitution get’s tweaked, so to must the basic structure of Air streaming. Remember the creed was set out for a club to support a company’s end goals. It sold a vision. Maybe we need a better pair of glasses!
Why not come up with a vision, than see if the current club can meet it. If not take an active role and fix it. I for one am excited about joining the WBCCI and can’t wait to go to my first rally! If I don’t like how things are run, I am going to try and change it. Not everybody can be against it since there are still units and members. Sure it is in decline, but so is everything else in this country. Organizations don’t improve unless they are forced to by the stock holders or customers. Do you think the car companies spent all that money trying to make a more efficient care because they cared? Do you think any company or organization does anything that isn’t in its own best interest?
Times change, so do organizations or they fail. But most have to fail before they will change!!
So what should be in the vision statement?

Here is my piece: "To spend time with friends and families enjoying your airstream. Whether it is a night, a week, a moth or the rest of your life."

[PeeWee]

Originally Posted by wxbuoy

You are all wrong. I have seen nothing but bickering, talk about structure, what is right, what is wrong, do this, do that. Everyone has missed the core element even, the starter of this thread. Structure is not the problem, vision is. What about a simple vision statement? A simple doctrine saying this is what we believe in. Structure follows purpose. The founding fathers came up with the declaration of Independence and the bill of rights before they got into the details of the current convoluted mess.
A simple validation of the creed that started the whole thing to begin with would be in order. Just like the Constitution get’s tweaked, so to must the basic structure of Air streaming. Remember the creed was set out for a club to support a company’s end goals. It sold a vision. Maybe we need a better pair of glasses!
Why not come up with a vision, than see if the current club can meet it. If not take an active role and fix it. I for one am excited about joining the WBCCI and can’t wait to go to my first rally! If I don’t like how things are run, I am going to try and change it. Not everybody can be against it since there are still units and members. Sure it is in decline, but so is everything else in this country. Organizations don’t improve unless they are forced to by the stock holders or customers. Do you think the car companies spent all that money trying to make a more efficient care because they cared? Do you think any company or organization does anything that isn’t in its own best interest?
Times change, so do organizations or they fail. But most have to fail before they will change!!
So what should be in the vision statement?

Here is my piece: "To spend time with friends and families enjoying your airstream. Whether it is a night, a week, a moth or the rest of your life."

Dave and Felicia,

You are really going to have fun and you are going to enjoy yourselves. Welcome to the world of the Wally Byam Caravan Club.

Pee Wee

[norsea]

Originally Posted by wxbuoy

<SNIP>

What about a simple vision statement? A simple doctrine saying this is what we believe in. Structure follows purpose. The founding fathers came up with the declaration of Independence and the bill of rights before they got into the details of the current convoluted mess.

<SNIP>

OK

Here's a suggestion:

The purpose of the organization is to operate and maintain a national Airstream travel trailer and motor home club to promote the camaraderie and friendship of individual members and Airstream travel trailer and motor home clubs.

I will raise your purpose statement and add something about WHO can be a member, as follows:

Membership in XYZ Airstream club as an individual member shall be open to any person who is over the age of 21 and interested in furthering the purposes of XYZ Airstream Club.

Notice that there is nothing whatsoever in the above paragraph about having to OWN an Airstream.

The objective would be to have a club that is inclusive of anyone who shares an interest in the organization and "furthering the purposes" of the organization. This, as opposed to a club that is exclusive and has lots of requirements for membership. The idea is that anyone who so desires can become a member; much like this here forum.

Jim

[Gene]

I don't think most groups start out with a conventional structure, but if they grow beyond some number—10, 20, maybe more—people start wanting something familiar. That usually means a board, officers, dues, and yes, insurance. But first, just getting some like minded people together is the task.

If you click on the red banner at the top of every page—actually on the blue words to the right—you'll see a list of the groups that have so far listed themselves. Four are WBCCI units and 3 are not. The 3 are NorCal (apparently the oldest), AIR Midwest, and NW Streamers. None of the three have more than 10 members, but now that the Forum has provided easy access to a webpage, I expect more people will join. All are geographical in name.

No affinity groups yet. I suggest Assorted Iconoclasts Rallying [AIR] for a national group of malcontents who want to avoid rules. Of course such a group would have a hard time finding someone to facilitate things. A leaderless group has been tried in other situations, but someone has to rent the room and invite or solicit people, so there's always someone acting as leader. But maybe we can change that.

The name AIR would confuse everyone (except airheads). That appeals to me as much as the theater of the absurd once did. I suppose it could be Absurd Iconoclasts Rallying, but I think I'm starting to sound like it's 1970. But there's a history of people finding a way to communicate and then just showing up—it's been done with posters years ago, but now with cellphones, smart or dumb. A rally with trailers isn't so easy to arrange on a few hours notice, but the spirit of that maybe could be maintained.

I'm still trying to figure out that liability thing—maybe call it a joint venture or partnership so everyone is equally involved and basically liable for what they do themselves just like real life. All decisions jointly via internet, though I don't know how that works. Any thoughts on AIR, a non-group group?

Gene