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Old 11-17-2009, 12:28 PM   #57
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I think there is room for some organization - somebody has to take the bull by the horns. Look at groups like HOG - Harley Owners Group and their structure, or lack thereof... They thrive around a product. An Airstream Club should be not too different I think.
Funny you should mention HOG. I am a life member and don't really consider it a "club", although it certainly is. To me, its a bunch of great guys who ride every weekend to beautiful places. I can join them, or not, on any weekend I choose. And get a patch for it. The only rule is watch where you spit.

My other two life memberships are the NRA and ACLU. But those are definitely political.
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Old 11-17-2009, 12:29 PM   #58
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My thoughts on a "new club" were posted before. In real life, I manage an organization. Unlike some, I'm not entirely cynical about the fate of every human enterprise. On the whole, I'd say America has been a relatively successful experiment... though certainly with some ugly moments along the way and doubtlessly more to come.

It's not hard to start a good club... what's hard is sustaining one. I think the key for a future Airstream club is having a few simple rules, representative governance, minimal bureaucracy and solid "checks and balances" to guard against any aggrandizement of individual power. As noted in the Aluminauts thread, I think a group that is "other focused" rather than "self focused" is easier to sustain... and attracts a different crowd.

Oh, and one more thing.

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The Club founders knew what they were doing. Do you? The Club founders knew what they were doing. Do you?
If as Gene observes, Airforums is "the new club," its membership has far eclipsed the WBCCI. There are no dues, save voluntary ones. The benefits are amazing, particularly for those discussing important issues like the benefits and disadvantages of modern spray foam insulation. Frankly, any new "real world" club would be foolish not to build on the Airforums as a foundation. I think many of the folks here are too busy putting Airstreams on the road where they belong and having fun to worry about "the old club."

Do we know what we're doing? In a word, PeeWee... yes.
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Old 11-17-2009, 01:26 PM   #59
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In response to Fredís original request.

We all tend to agree we like Airforums and some of us even like/enjoy the WBCCI at the local level.

Why not the best of both worlds? A modern organization that uses the internet to the fullest extent and one that has local units that provide the club atmosphere that some of us enjoy?

If there are dues to be paid then keep the majority of the money at the local level. Let the organizational dues portion be used for liability and internet infrastructure expenses (if any).

What is the need for regional and international officers and its hierarchy? The local unitís representatives could convene at regular intervals over the internet and make decisions for the entire organization and its activities. A method of direct feedback could be linked for each member. Our local unit is considering a voting link on its website that would let the local officers receive feedback from the members on various issues. The local units would continue to operate, providing the camping fun and activities for which most of us joined the current club (WBCCI).

The Airforums could serve to provide the organization its real-time updates on Clubs and Groups activities. Organizational events such as national and regional rallies could be planned through this venue. The intra-clubs could participate the same way any unit participates without the need to pay extra dues. Other airstream related cousins (Avions, Silver Streaks, Streamlines etc.) could participate through an intra-club.

Through a group effort a news representative from each unit could provide input to create and online newsletter which could be dynamic with new articles added on a regular basis.

Tom
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Old 11-17-2009, 02:08 PM   #60
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Tom... some thing go together like peanut butter and jelly; other things go together like matches and gasoline.

The WBCCI is meeting the needs of its current (albeit dwindling) membership. And if the International Officers are really receiving a buck and a quarter ($125k for you non-hipsters) in travel reimbursement... what incentive do they have to go away? There are some successful local units. The folks who want red numbers get red numbers. The folks who want name tags get name tags. So it goes.

As for Airforums, it's working for its members. People seem generally happy here. It seems this mojo can translate to the real world since AF members have "rallied" and liked it. Sure it would be nice if the old world of the WBCCI could meet the new world of the Airforums in some "let's-kill-a-turkey-and-break-bread-in-peace as-friends" neo-Thanksgiving feast. On the other hand, the aftermath of the historic Thanksgiving didn't work out well for everyone.
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Old 11-17-2009, 02:32 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TWaugh View Post
In response to Fredís original request.

We all tend to agree we like Airforums and some of us even like/enjoy the WBCCI at the local level.

Why not the best of both worlds?
I think it is safe to say that WBCCI has zero interest in being part of these forums and a team player in what goes on here - the simple reason... They can not control or moderate it. That being said, many units very successfully use this venue to advertise and discuss rallies so in that aspect it does happen. But as for a larger cooperative participation... forget it.
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Old 11-17-2009, 03:52 PM   #62
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I think it is safe to say that WBCCI has zero interest in being part of these forums and a team player in what goes on here - the simple reason... They can not control or moderate it. That being said, many units very successfully use this venue to advertise and discuss rallies so in that aspect it does happen. But as for a larger cooperative participation... forget it.

Sorry, I did not mean to infer that the club would be the WBCCI participating on the AF but rather a new organization modeled on the portions of the WBBCI which do work along with aspects of the AF which are useful.

From Fred's original message:"Briefly, how would you structure the "club" to grow and prosper in today's world?"

I was simply suggesting a model for this "club".

Thanks,
Tom
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Old 11-17-2009, 04:43 PM   #63
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Ah - of course! Got it - then it becomes an exercise of what works in WBCCI that could be adopted.
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Old 11-17-2009, 08:36 PM   #64
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Ah - of course! Got it - then it becomes an exercise of what works in WBCCI that could be adopted.
The one thing that works is the local units.

The thing that doesn't work in the International.

So perhaps the local units should secede from the WBCCI, then each local unit communicates on or through this forum.

I believe the local unit here in NY works great because of the people.

In conjunction with that I spend time here and have hooked up at several forum rallies.

best of both worlds.

-----

I wish I didn't pay $55 to Wbcci for the zero benefit I receive in return.

Knowing the ancients are spending $125,000 traveling around pisses me me off. That's about 40% of everyones dues.
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Old 11-17-2009, 10:14 PM   #65
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One of the reasons for having international officers is to bring those airstreamers in other countries into the club and thus exchange ideas and methods. Another is for the international president to attend various national RV shows and RV manufacture meeting and present the members wants and needs to them and bring back news and info on what is coming down the road and report such to the members. min cost max benefit. the club website should be set up at the int'l level for many reasons - lowert cost and with more benefits.

As to cost / dues work is being done to get that down to $25 to $30 bucks. Also, liability insurance is cost effective at the international level but not at the local unit level. And if you think that insurance is not needed, think again.

Bob T
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Old 11-18-2009, 04:54 AM   #66
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I stopped reading this thread almost immediately when I saw it was not: how would you structure a new club? It was another: how do we reform the WBCCI thread. But curiosity got the best of me and I see there are posts about a club that never mention the WBCCI.

The variety of ideas show there is potential for manynew clubs. And, maybe something that is never called a "club" because that name brings baggage with it, as does "structure".

A note of history—people who do not like what is going on (see: French Revolution), eventually find themselves with pretty much the same thing (see: Napoleon). It's not quite that simple, but will do. The tendency is to want a club that is the anti-WBCCI. No berets, no magazines, no flags, no, no, no. A lot of times the anti-club evolves into the same thing it replaces.

I believe true creativity is a rarity. Well, I agree that reinventing the wheel is silly, how about inventing something different? Some will reinvent, some will invent, but many will blend bringing in something they know and feel ok with.

For ex., just about everyone will want some form of democracy and potlucks. Both are structures. Everyone will want some kind of communication be it the Forum or Twitter or notes posted on a telephone pole in downtown Cincinnati. The devil may be in the details (The USSR said it was democratic) of course.

I did not create a structure for a new club because I meant what I said. Let us see what evolves. Since I'm full of cliches, let a thousand flowers bloom (not in the sense that Mao meant it, but literally). Now "let" implies someone is allowing blooming and that they must be flowers, so the presupposition is someone is in charge.

I suggest everyone is in charge and ideas will attract like minded people.

A variety of things will pop up over time. There will be some limits (although there will be workarounds). The Forum provides communication ability, but will may have trouble with the Airstream Orgy Club (the orgy may be an orgy of restoration, or what you see isn't always what you get), Marijuana Airstream Festival and Mass Murderers with Airstreams Group. Pretty hard to get around some structure.

I really don't know what will evolve and am hoping to see something really original, but will probably settle for a very loosely organized, decentralized bunch of Airstreamers will similar tastes. I will struggle with my desire to draft bylaws because I know how to do it. Maybe a rule should be: every club or group will be dissolved in 2 years (i.e., before "leaders", "organizers" and "bylaws writers" take over).

Several days ago we participated in a rally. There were 2 Airstreams and 4 people. We knew each of us would be in the same area at the same time. The cocktail hour went on and on. Great ideas were parsed and no decisions were made. The Forum provided the initial communication. A good time was had by all. Or: A couple of weeks ago we had dinner with two other Airstreamers we had never met in a city far from home. Again, the Forum provided the initial communications link. Another good time. Maybe it can be that simple.

Gene
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Old 11-18-2009, 09:56 AM   #67
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The forum should be the club. Maybe the dudes in charge could lobby campgrounds for reduced rates due to the size of the forum. Members interested in getting reduced rates could make a slightly larger contribution to the forum. Rally's of any variety could be organized through this web site. If you want to go to the AS Satan worshipers Rally in Hell Michigan or the Heavenly Bunch in Florida you are free to sign up and attend. No need for presidents, officers, or berets. Someone gets an idea for a rally and folks are free to attend. Forum members interested in staying with the WBCCI are more than welcome. Members that are not interested can go there separate ways. Maybe this sounds to easy. Perhaps one rule!!! Nobody sues anyone for any reason.
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Old 11-18-2009, 10:27 AM   #68
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What you suggest would be to easy. Nobody will ever go for it.
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IF that 125 K figure is true, it confirms my gut feeling and also the words of one Unit President when she said to me That their camping at BOZEMAN didn't cost them ANYTHING and they were there almost two weeks. She just kinda blurted that out without thinking.
I think the system of setting up rallys and attending those rallys, works good at least for me. I can see Forums rallys all over the country and choose what works for me. I can make my reservations and pay my own way and not have to pay for someone else. IT really works AMAZING and I get What I PAY FOR.
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Old 11-18-2009, 12:02 PM   #69
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One of the reasons for having international officers is to bring those airstreamers in other countries into the club and thus exchange ideas and methods. Another is for the international president to attend various national RV shows and RV manufacture meeting and present the members wants and needs to them and bring back news and info on what is coming down the road and report such to the members. min cost max benefit. the club website should be set up at the int'l level for many reasons - lowert cost and with more benefits.

As to cost / dues work is being done to get that down to $25 to $30 bucks. Also, liability insurance is cost effective at the international level but not at the local unit level. And if you think that insurance is not needed, think again.

Bob T
With all due respect, Bob, but you are talking about a better oxen yoke when we talking about diesel tow vehicles. It makes little sense to send people to other countries when we already have international communication happening right now. I've become acquainted with (and helped) folks from outside the U.S. through the Airforums.

As for RV manufacturers... the same principle applies. We have thousands of people on the Airforums who can do "recon." Having forum members everywhere makes this process local, and very inexpensive (read "free").

As for liability insurance... I simply disagree. Liability insurance can be easily acquired by any size of organization. A simple D&O policy isn't hard to acquire if there's some need for corporate/nonprofit board liability insurance. I serve on a regulatory commission as an unpaid member. We're responsible for the oversight of a 30,000 customer franchise cable television franchise agreement and a franchise agreement worth millions of dollars to local government. The nine-member body pays $1,538 per year for a "full meal deal" liability policy.

Is insurance necessary? Sure. Is it expensive? No. You could have a unpaid, "unreimbursed" governing body of a club with no bricks-and-mortar HQ for a nominal cost. At 6,000 members, you're talking about two-bits a head.

I'm sure you're a nice guy, Bob. I'm sure you honestly believe everything you've written... as do the Int'l officers who cash in on the buck-and-a-quarter in travel reimbursements. It's just that my irony meter is pegged when your first sentence is about "exchanging idea and methods" when the WBCCI appears more resistant to change than the Carthusian Order. There's nothing wrong with traveling to other countries and "Airstreaming." There's nothing wrong with staying abreast of evolving technologies... or hoping the Airstream mothership eventually uses them. The real question is: Who pays? Should rank-and-file club members underwrite the travel excursions of a select few?

This thread is about a new club... and if one evolves, I hope it will include a simple rule that any leaders may not benefit in any way from a leadership position within the club.
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Old 11-18-2009, 12:25 PM   #70
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Bravo! no one should benefit financially from the WBCII and that is a problem.
Also i have a caravan to Baja here on the forums and it is my free planning pay as you go. the one that was cancelled on WBCCI in the Blue Beret was over $2000 a person. NOw who is benefiting.
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