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Old 12-09-2004, 03:19 PM   #15
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sero zeggo malat aleakom oo ala wayehkom oo ala shakelkom
Hi BatzMaru, Welcome to the forums.
I looks like you forgot to turn on your universal translater.
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Old 12-20-2004, 02:18 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by eubank
...Every tank has several stamped-in markings, among them, the following:

TW (followed by a number)
WC (followed by a number)

The figure after TW is your empty (or TARE) weight in pounds (=no propane)...
In the Almost Useless Trivia department , I weighed one of my 37 year old 30 pound cylinders (outfitted with an OPD valve) before taking it to be refilled last Saturday. I considered the cylinder to be empty because the regulator "red-flagged" it, and it did not slosh when removed. The stamped tare weight was 23-1/2 pounds. My digital bathroom scales read 24-1/2 pounds. I guess the tare weight was determined before the valve was installed.

The weight difference is not accumulated layers of paint because the tank was stripped before painting.

Well, maybe it is Just Useless Trivia

Tom
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Old 12-20-2004, 02:26 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomW
In the Almost Useless Trivia department , I weighed one of my 37 year old 30 pound cylinders (outfitted with an OPD valve) before taking it to be refilled last Saturday. I considered the cylinder to be empty because the regulator "red-flagged" it, and it did not slosh when removed. The stamped tare weight was 23-1/2 pounds. My digital bathroom scales read 24-1/2 pounds. I guess the tare weight was determined before the valve was installed.
The weight difference is not accumulated layers of paint because the tank was stripped before painting.
Well, maybe it is Just Useless Trivia
Tom
Actually, what you found isn't very unusual: I've found that the majority of tanks showing empty still have propane in them. On the little 5-lb BBQ tanks, for example, my most usual fill amount is 4.6 gallons.

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Old 12-20-2004, 02:50 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by eubank
...I've found that the majority of tanks showing empty still have propane in them...
Well, my cylinder, like me , is unusual in another way. While I consider the purpose of the Overfill Protection Device to be worthy, I wondered if it would prevent my tank from getting a full fill. In other words, would the OPD jump the gun before I got my money's worth?

The easiest way to check was to weigh the tank before & after filling. The 'after' weight was 56 pounds, which means I took on more than 30 pounds of LPG.

I watched the attendant fill the cylinder, and was satisfied he followed a normal fill procedure. Since the tank still sloshed afterwards, I do not feel I have a safety hazard.

Next time I need to remember to tell them I have a 31-1/2 pound cylinder to be filled.

Tom
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Old 12-20-2004, 04:26 PM   #19
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I wondered if it would prevent my tank from getting a full fill. In other words, would the OPD jump the gun before I got my money's worth?
Wellllll, it's kind of hard to tell. One issue here is whether your propane filler charges by the gallon or a flat rate. As far as OPDs are concerned, I've found that they "pop" at just about the same time that the scale indicates full.

Quote:
The easiest way to check was to weigh the tank before & after filling. The 'after' weight was 56 pounds, which means I took on more than 30 pounds of LPG.
You might want to be somewhat careful -- as you should with any full tank of the standard RV type. Keep it upright, never on its side. Don't keep in in full sunlight on a warm day.

Quote:
I watched the attendant fill the cylinder, and was satisfied he followed a normal fill procedure. Since the tank still sloshed afterwards, I do not feel I have a safety hazard.
Did the person fill by volume or by weight? By volume means that the filler used a screwdriver to open the little screw on the side of the top valve and stopped filling when white propane squirted out. It's an acceptable way to fill (and the only way for most many motorhomes), but the somewhat more accurate way is by weight, meaning that the filler added TW+(WC/.42)+(weight of filling hose) and used a scale to determine fullness of tank. (In no case should a filler simply rely on the OPD to determine fullness!)


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Old 12-20-2004, 04:52 PM   #20
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At least two of our Nashville U-Haul outlets sell propane by the gallon. They love to see me coming, too, since my Argosy MH tank basically requires lying on the ground to access the fill fitting!

Bob
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Old 12-29-2004, 04:34 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by eubank
...as you should with any full tank of the standard RV type. Keep it upright, never on its side...
Does anyone know why it is not safe to store a tank on its side? This question came up the other day, and I could not come up with a reason as to why storing a LPG cylinder on its side is a bad idea.

Thanks,
Tom
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Old 12-29-2004, 08:48 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by TomW
Does anyone know why it is not safe to store a tank on its side? This question came up the other day, and I could not come up with a reason as to why storing a LPG cylinder on its side is a bad idea.

Thanks,
Tom
Ok, first, the max fill on any tank is 80%; that's because propane expands a lot when it's warmed (e.g., by sun shining on the tank).

Now, the back end of a valve (opd or older) on a standard tank is a relief. If the tank is warmed (expanding propane) and filled only to 80%, then the propane will force only air to come out of the relief. However, if the tank is on its side and the propane expands, then the only thing that can come out of the relief is pure propane. Not a good idea!


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Old 12-29-2004, 08:56 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eubank
Did the person fill by volume or by weight? By volume means that the filler used a screwdriver to open the little screw on the side of the top valve and stopped filling when white propane squirted out. It's an acceptable way to fill (and the only way for most many motorhomes), but the somewhat more accurate way is by weight, meaning that the filler added TW+(WC/.42)+(weight of filling hose) and used a scale to determine fullness of tank. (In no case should a filler simply rely on the OPD to determine fullness!)


Lynn
Lynn I find your comment interesting since I've always read that filling by volume is the only safe way to fill. In every case where I have had a situation where the pressure relief valve opened, I could point back to the dealer who filled the tank used the weight method rather than using the 80% screw. When that method is used the point that liquid shows up is when the tank is 80% full. Problem is the clowns who fill these tanks don't have accurate scales or don't check the tank closely to be sure the weight they are using (as full) is accurate. This is a big reason why the OPD valves have come about. If dealers filled by volume, we wouldn't have had to go to these valves.

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Old 12-29-2004, 09:01 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eubank
Ok, first, the max fill on any tank is 80%; that's because propane expands a lot when it's warmed (e.g., by sun shining on the tank).

Now, the back end of a valve (opd or older) on a standard tank is a relief. If the tank is warmed (expanding propane) and filled only to 80%, then the propane will force only air to come out of the relief. However, if the tank is on its side and the propane expands, then the only thing that can come out of the relief is pure propane. Not a good idea!


Lynn
That's not air coming out of the tank. It's propane gas. Just stand by one bleeding out and you will know its gas. If a tank has been properly filled, the area above the liquid is gas not air. I do agree if the tank is on its side and the pressure valve opens, you will get liquid which quickly turns into gas. Neither situation gas or liquid is a safe condition.

Jack
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Old 12-29-2004, 09:03 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eubank
...because propane expands a lot when it's warmed (e.g., by sun shining on the tank)...Now, the back end of a valve (opd or older) on a standard tank is a relief. If the tank is warmed (expanding propane) and filled only to 80%, then the propane will force only air to come out of the relief. However, if the tank is on its side and the propane expands, then the only thing that can come out of the relief is pure propane.
I understand what you are saying, but something is not quite right.

There is virtually no air in a properly filled tank. The 20% of the tank not filled by liquid propane is filled with gaseous propane.

So pure propane will will be released anytime the relief valve senses overpressure.

Liquid propane will vaporize almost immediately once it escapes the tank into the great outdoors.

Does the relief valve work by gently releasing pressure, or does it pop suddenly at a particular pressure, and reset when the pressure drops below some value?

Tom
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Old 12-29-2004, 09:08 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcanavera
Lynn I find your comment interesting since I've always read that filling by volume is the only safe way to fill. In every case where I have had a situation where the pressure relief valve opened, I could point back to the dealer who filled the tank used the weight method rather than using the 80% screw. When that method is used the point that liquid shows up is when the tank is 80% full. Problem is the clowns who fill these tanks don't have accurate scales or don't check the tank closely to be sure the weight they are using (as full) is accurate. This is a big reason why the OPD valves have come about. If dealers filled by volume, we wouldn't have had to go to these valves.

Jack
You're right; there is a contradiction in the NSFA regulations in this regard. And there are a LOT of clowns around who fill propane. One of the worst parts is that licensed fillers can "supervise" filling by unlicensed fillers, but nobody defined "supervise." For some, it apparently means that the unlicensed person can be observed from a distance while the licensed person sits in an office someplace and drinks coffee. You wouldn't believe the tanks we've seen here that were presumably filled by licensed fillers.


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Old 12-29-2004, 09:15 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomW
I understand what you are saying, but something is not quite right.
There is virtually no air in a properly filled tank. The 20% of the tank not filled by liquid propane is filled with gaseous propane.
So pure propane will will be released anytime the relief valve senses overpressure.

Tom
Quote:
That's not air coming out of the tank. It's propane gas. Just stand by one bleeding out and you will know its gas. If a tank has been properly filled, the area above the liquid is gas not air. I do agree if the tank is on its side and the pressure valve opens, you will get liquid which quickly turns into gas. Neither situation gas or liquid is a safe condition.

Jack
BOth pretty close! There's air in the top of the tank, but it's got some propane mixed in with it. That's certainly dangerous enough (as propane doesn't burn real well in the absence of oxygen, anyway).


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Old 12-29-2004, 09:27 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eubank
...There's air in the top of the tank, but it's got some propane mixed in with it...
No, the amount of air in a properly filled tank is insignificant.

I think we all now agree that something flammable will be released if the relief valve feels like it, but it sounds like the position of the tank does not matter after all. Overpressure at any cylinder attitude is dangerous.

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