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Old 12-29-2006, 08:25 PM   #29
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Glad to see this project moving forward, FAR forward! Also glad I could lend a hand to get you in touch with the right guy!!!

I'll be interested to see how efficient this system will be. Do you plan on evern running this system on battery only, or will this be primarily shore powered?
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Old 12-29-2006, 08:55 PM   #30
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The heart of the hydronic system is the WEBASTO TSL 17 furnace.

It will fit, lying on its side, in a small compartment mounted between the beams of the frame at the tongue. All one will see is a little aluminum cover on the compartment.

You can see that the coolant hoses, into and out of the Webasto, are in place. The returning coolant will pass through the expansion tank shown before returning to the pump of the Webasto.

A plug-in wiring harness runs from both the battery compartment and the fuel pump, located right at the diesel tank, to the Webasto.

A fuel line also runs under the trailer, from the tank to the Webasto 17.

Millions of these small, efficient heaters are used to pre-heat the engines of over-the-road diesel trucks. They also heat the sleeper cabs.

Webastos are also widely used in the marine world for an application much like mine.

Here’s an easy way to understand the system: my water heater is made for the marine world. There, the hot coolant from your on-board diesel engine passes through the coils of the water heater, transferring heat to the enclosed domestic water.

Since the Argosy doesn’t have an on-board diesel engine we use the tiny Webasto as the method of heating the coolant to 170 degrees.

Westfalia, thank you again. The Webasto is 12v only but the INDEL IOSOTEMP water heater is coolant PLUS an 110v element which can be used when shore power is available.

I have wired the water heater directly to the main breaker, which is yet to be installed.

Sergei
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Old 02-02-2007, 08:52 PM   #31
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Well, First Diesel Powered AIRSTREAM ??

In post #25 I reported on how Bill Moxom had
let my ego down gently when I once proclaimed that I might be building the World’s First Diesel Powered Trailer.

He told me how they’d already outfitted some Trailmanor 5th wheels with diesel heating for shipment to Europe. Maybe I could be First in North America!

Last night, scrolling the internet, I stumbled upon this remarkable AUSTRALIAN all-terrain “pop-up” trailer. Airstreamers will love the ingenuity involved in this thing:

http://www.kimberleykaravans.com/kar...ter_system.php

Their heating system is almost exactly like the one I concocted. While I obviously didn’t invent anything new at all, it gives me great confidence that the idea was a good one.

Sergei
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Old 02-06-2007, 03:07 PM   #32
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Diesel Cook Tops

Is there anyone out there that may have experience with or knowledge of either of these two Diesel Cook Tops:


http://www.webasto.com.au/am/en/am_rv_3988.html



ttp://www.wallas.com/index_eng.php?group=1&type=1


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Old 02-06-2007, 03:10 PM   #33
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Is there anyone out there that may have experience with or knowledge of either of these two Diesel Cook Tops:


http://www.webasto.com.au/am/en/am_rv_3988.html



ttp://www.wallas.com/index_eng.php?group=1&type=1


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Old 02-06-2007, 03:12 PM   #34
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I'm trying to set up a link to this one too:


ttp://www.wallas.com/index_eng.php?group=1&type=1


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Old 02-06-2007, 03:46 PM   #35
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You were just missing the leading "h" in http for the link for the Wallas

I'm guessing the Wallas, being a marine stove is going to be a lot more expensive. Especially coming from Finland. Webasto is a well respected brand for marine heaters. Since they don't rate the stoves for marine use I'm guessing the corrosion resistance isn't as great. In other words everythings not stainless steel or some other expensive material. I'll bet you'll have an easier time finding parts and service for the Webasto; especially when you're miles from any yachting centers.

Do you have a ceramic cook top at home? They have the advantage of being easy to clean and for diesel I would hope they help to minimize the odor in the cabin. Be warned, I've never known a boat that didn't smell like diesel; no matter how much the owner says it doesn't

The drawbacks are that the heat control is much less sensitive. It takes longer to heat up and doesn't cool down immediately. Of course you can always take a pot off the stove. In fact another advantage is the whole surface is usable and you never have to worry about balancing a pot half off a burner ring. With our glass cooktop at home we have to use thick bottomed pots that are absolutely flat or the heat conduction is worthless. So unless you already have the cooking gear budget a few hundred loonies for new pots and pans.

-Bernie
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Old 02-06-2007, 05:17 PM   #36
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link in the middle of the text?

Bernie:

How do you make that link in the middle of the text, like you did with WALLAS?

I haven’t seen either of the cook tops in the flesh but they look so similar that I’m guessing Webasto is the German knock-off of the Finnish original.

It may be that the Webasto isn’t made for the marine environment but this is hard to imagine as they have such a big presence there.

I agree that the Webasto will have a much bigger service network. This interests me and makes even more sense considering that I’m already using the Webasto TSL heater for the hydronics.

Although they are not yet sold in America I understand that EARTHROAMER in Colorado is switching from Wallas to Webasto. They are apparently seeking government approvals on Webasto’s behalf.

EarthRoamer were perfectly satisfied with Wallas, they say. It’s just that they were propositioned by Webasto.

I am roughing in the fuel supply line to cook top now. I won’t need the actual cooker for a few months so I still have time for research.

I don’t have a ceramic cook top at home but I do like the flush surface, especially in a tiny space like an Argosy.

Sergei
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Old 02-06-2007, 09:25 PM   #37
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Bernie:

Be warned, I've never known a boat that didn't smell like diesel; no matter how much the owner says it doesn't

I don’t know about this; never been on a boat.

But reading comments about Wallas on boat owner’s forums, I’ve never seen a complaint about this.

The burners in these units are completely sealed and draw air and exhaust gases (through the same two way tube) out of the body of the trailer.

My Webasto TSL 17 heater for the hydronic system will also be outside, on the tongue.

There shouldn’t be any sound or small inside.

Sergei



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Old 02-08-2007, 01:00 PM   #38
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Sergei,
To get the link embedded under the text just highlight the text you want to be linked and then click on the Insert Link icon (the ball and chain). It'll pop up a dialog box asking for the URL and you just type or better yet paste the URL. Viola, instant linked text. If you have a well formed URL the forum software seems to turn it into a link automagicly. But since you were missing the H in HTTP it didn't see it as a link.

The glass is very nice for clean-up and I think makes a lot of sense for a diesel cooktop. Yeah, it's strange Webasto doesn't market the stoves to the marine industry in North America as they are like the GM of boat heaters. Maybe they figure the market isn't big enough? Most sailboats use alcohol stoves. Alcohol fires have the advantage of being able to be put out with water. The flame is odorless. And since on a sailboat the stove and/or oven need to be on gimbles the alcohol is nice since it's self contained in the stove (no fuel line to flex).

Other things being equal I'd go for the larger dealer network. As far as the smell of diesel I think just the exhaust ends up permeating just about everything. That and the fumes from the tank. Of course I'm hypersensitive to smells and the boats I've been on that really work at keeping it clean aren't objectionable but it's undeniably there.

Oh yeah, start looking for cookwear. It makes a huge difference in how the ceramic tops perform. The good stuff doesn't come cheap but it's nice to cook with. You'll probably end up putting in a ceramic top for the house after you get used to it

-Bernie
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Old 02-08-2007, 10:16 PM   #39
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Bernie:

My hunch that the Webasto was a German knock-off of the Finnish original was close - but no cigar.

Turns out the WEBASTO is MADE by WALLAS IN FINLAND!

I learned this from Bruce Loxton, the owner of Kimberley Kampers (above) in Australia.

I confirmed it with calls to both Earthroamer in Colorado and the Wallas importer, ScanMarine in Seattle, today.

Apparently, WALLAS will keep the marine field in America while WEBASTO will cover the RV category.

That’s why Earthroamer had to switch.

My feeling that a bigger dealer network is best may be valid - but then the importer told me that he thought he might be forced, by Wallas, to perform the service and maintenance for Webasto!

They are apparently the same except for a slight profile change on the CERAN © top.

The Webasto Australia site also claims:

“Even in the mountains it works dependably thanks to an altitude compensation switch”

The sea level Wallas may not have this. It would be worth having, I suppose, unless they want several hundred dollars extra.

The only price I’ve heard so far for the Webasto is several hundred dollars more than the Wallas!

If it's true, I'll have the original, thank you.

Interesting development, this.


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Old 02-12-2007, 12:58 PM   #40
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Very strange. The importer from Finland is here is Seattle? Unless the stuff comes by air it's a long way from Helsinki to Seattle. Of course just because they are the buisness unit that is the importer doesn't mean they ship through here. Then again, the Yamaha generator I bought last fall was shipped to Kent (south Seattle) and then to Wisonson and they packed the original box in another box and UPSed it back to me.

Interesting that the Webasto is built by Wallas. I would have guessed the Webasto was cheaper since 1) they are a larger volume and 2) usually the only thing more expensive than marketing something as "marine use" is to have it say "for aviation".

If the parts are truely the same they it shouldn't matter for service. Armed with your knowledge of the part numbers you should be able to buy which ever replacement part is cheaper. I just have a hard time believing anything from a marine store is cheaper. However, since this is a rebranded product I guess they just add on a mark-up. I'm sure there's safety certifications that have to be bought for the different markets and I'd guess overall there's more use of diesel stoves in boats than RVs since RVs are 99.9% propane.

If West Marine carries the Wallas then you should be able to get parts and service almost anywhere.

-Bernie
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Old 02-13-2007, 05:44 PM   #41
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Webasto diesel cook top

Bernie, others:

In case you are curious or interested, here is the Owners Manual - with drawings - for the Webasto Cook Top.


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Old 02-23-2007, 09:20 PM   #42
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UP and RUNNING!!

We set the expansion tank and diesel heater in their approximate final positions the other day and started up the system. See the photo.
ATTACH]32962[/ATTACH]
It took only a couple of minutes to circulate less than 2 gallons of the water/ethylene glycol mix all through the 70’ of heater hose coolant lines.

There were no leaks, not a single one. We had to bleed captured air off
( using a flat blade screwdriver) at the heater’s outlet before the circulation pump would run smoothly.

Once running, we could detect NO sound from the pump. We had to touch it with our hand to confirm our suspicion that fluid was traveling in the line.

When the unit first starts the circulating pump, ceramic igniter and combustion air fan all come on together and there is a not unpleasant whine which lasts 60 seconds.

When combustion starts it is barely audible. I would say the constant sound is about the same as the new Flojet water pump inside the trailer.

This silence was helped by the fact that we’d exhausted the plant to the outside of the temporary workspace.

So we tested it with the exhaust inside the shed. There was more sound but you could conduct a conversation in a normal voice.

The sound is much less than the little Japanese generators make, for instance. It’s also less than the sound a propane furnace exhaust makes.

Nevertheless, in the final set up, we will add a small muffler. The system will then be whisper quiet.

So we have no sound to speak of and no smell outside.

Inside the trailer there is complete silence. You can’t hear the fluid moving in the rubber hose of course. There is no sound of a gas furnace coming on and off. No ducts so no air turbulence. Just the quiet hum of the little 1.5 amp fans in the three fan coil units.

The little Webasto heater on the trailer tongue measures 9” x 4” by 6.4” and weights 7 pounds.

Operating on 12v it draws 5 W at high and 2.5 at low. Full heat is 17, 200 BTU. Reduced heat is 8,600.

It consumes 0.16 gallons of diesel per hour at high and .08 at low.

It’s a very, very sweet set up. I’m happy to see all the work result in such a nice system.

The other photos attached are of the small wall thermostat used to control the fan units and the 11.5-gallon diesel tank, complete with pump.

[
Name:   100_1579.jpg
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The tank is mounted under the trailer, just forward of the axles.
[ATTACH]32960[/ATTACH

The hole at the right front is where we inserted the supply feed for the diesel cook top. The stove uses the same size miniature fuel line and also just sips fuel.


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