Diesel Powered Trailer

[SmokelessJoe]

Lew,

I realized after posting that it is a national holiday in your country today. That's probably the reason. I'll try again tomorrow.

Thanks.

Sergei

[Tarheel]

A nice 10 kw diesel generator and go all electric.

[SmokelessJoe]

Tarheel:

Thanks for the in put.

Diesel is loud and a 10K plant would be heavy but I also think it will be better to have multi-source power.

We have a 3500 watt “under the hood” generator on the Sprinter tow vehicle, as well as a 200 amp alternator that can charge a pretty hefty truck mounted battery bank and inverter combination.

This way we should only have to “High Idle” the Mercedes motor for air conditioning (when not on shore power).

Diesel options are more and more numerous and very interesting. You can heat air or coolant as well as cook with diesel.

Small diesel furnaces built for this purpose measure 8.5” wide, 6” high, 3.5” deep and weight only SIX POUNDS. They use only .16 US gallons of fuel per hour at HIGH.

Having diesel, in combination with the three other sources for electricity mentioned, is probably the most efficient system as well.

Sergei

[SmokelessJoe]

The down time between Christmas and New Year’s is a good time to catch up on my reporting to the forum.

A lot has happened since we were discussing this subject last May.

Member LEWSTER recommended that I contact VEHICLE SYSTEMS INC in Colorado (#3) and WESTFALIA sent me a personal contact for an engineer he knew there, a fellow member of his Volkswagen Bus Club (#19).

BILL MOXON was that guy. Bill confirmed that my plan was workable and offered to freely advise me. So far, I have an inch high pile of emails between him and his associate David Haynes.

They have patiently coached me through the installation to date and I can’t imagine being able to do this without them.

Lewster and Westfalia, thank you! This is yet another example of how helpful our forum is.

These are the various components that I assembled for the system.

The beer can gives an indication of relative size. The WEBASTO TSL 17 furnace is shown with it's exhaust and intake hoses. The stainless steel water heater is the ISOTEMP 6 gallon, made in Italy for the marine industry. The three COZY brand fan coil space heating units are from Vehicle Systems Inc.



I got lucky with the expansion tank. Gary, the rad repair man in my small town had once made one for a Volkswagen, out of solid brass, and still had it. He let me have it for $30. bucks.

I will post more photos and details on the installation over the next few days

Sergei

[SmokelessJoe]

The ARGOSY has it’s own diesel filler spout, located street side, about were the furnace outlet used to be.



(The screws are temporary. They will be replaced with proper rivets when we paint the trailer in the spring).

After I assembled all the pieces last summer, I called Bill to thank him for all his advice.

I blurted out that we might be building the world’s first diesel powered trailer.

“Well, we once equipped a fifth wheel for Trailmanor. But it was shipped to Europe. Maybe your’s can be first in North America” Bill said, letting my ego down gently.

[

The 11.5 gallon poly tank is mounted below the floor, just forward of the axles. The photo shows the filler and venting tubes as well as the fuel gauge, which will be mounted inside the trailer at the control panel.

The tank comes complete with sending unit for the gauge, is made by TEMPO Industries in Cleveland and is rated by all relevant agencies.



Sergei

[SmokelessJoe]

The filler spout enters the trailer where the gas furnace and water heaters once stood. It is routed down through the floor to the tank.

Phil insulated and patched the wall. The galley counter will of course hide this.

Sergei

[CanoeStream]

Sergei -- You break the mold! You aren't really venturing too far afield from the stories of sailors who live with diesel fumes when living aboard. More! Must have more info, mastah!!

[SmokelessJoe]

Bob, others;



This is the interior layout for the hydronic heating system.

Heated coolant comes from the WEBASTO diesel heater that is located outside on the trailer tongue.

Running through 70 feet of 3/4” I.D. black rubber heater hose, heated coolant fluid passes through the water heater, exchanging heat with the 6 gallons of water, then through the 3 fan-coil heaters, then back to the Webasto, via the expansion tank



One COZY space heater is located in the front of the trailer, near the water heater, under the kitchen galley counter.


The other two space heaters are at the rear. The bathroom unit has a plenum, which will divert ducted heat to the basement holding tanks.



There are two bypass arrangements at the ISOTEMP water heater. The yellow handled 2 way valve is a summer/winter switch will allows the fan coil units to be by-passed during summer months.

The other by-pass seen uses an automobile heater control valve. With this arrangement we can control the amount of fluid going to the water heater, should it need to be “balanced”

The blue water lines are the hot and cold supply, plumbed in the new IPEX system.

Sergei

[Westfalia]

Glad to see this project moving forward, FAR forward! Also glad I could lend a hand to get you in touch with the right guy!!!

I'll be interested to see how efficient this system will be. Do you plan on evern running this system on battery only, or will this be primarily shore powered?

[SmokelessJoe]

The heart of the hydronic system is the WEBASTO TSL 17 furnace.

It will fit, lying on its side, in a small compartment mounted between the beams of the frame at the tongue. All one will see is a little aluminum cover on the compartment.

You can see that the coolant hoses, into and out of the Webasto, are in place. The returning coolant will pass through the expansion tank shown before returning to the pump of the Webasto.

A plug-in wiring harness runs from both the battery compartment and the fuel pump, located right at the diesel tank, to the Webasto.

A fuel line also runs under the trailer, from the tank to the Webasto 17.

Millions of these small, efficient heaters are used to pre-heat the engines of over-the-road diesel trucks. They also heat the sleeper cabs.

Webastos are also widely used in the marine world for an application much like mine.

Here’s an easy way to understand the system: my water heater is made for the marine world. There, the hot coolant from your on-board diesel engine passes through the coils of the water heater, transferring heat to the enclosed domestic water.

Since the Argosy doesn’t have an on-board diesel engine we use the tiny Webasto as the method of heating the coolant to 170 degrees.

Westfalia, thank you again. The Webasto is 12v only but the INDEL IOSOTEMP water heater is coolant PLUS an 110v element which can be used when shore power is available.

I have wired the water heater directly to the main breaker, which is yet to be installed.

Sergei

[SmokelessJoe]

In post #25 I reported on how Bill Moxom had
let my ego down gently when I once proclaimed that I might be building the World’s First Diesel Powered Trailer.

He told me how they’d already outfitted some Trailmanor 5th wheels with diesel heating for shipment to Europe. Maybe I could be First in North America!

Last night, scrolling the internet, I stumbled upon this remarkable AUSTRALIAN all-terrain “pop-up” trailer. Airstreamers will love the ingenuity involved in this thing:

http://www.kimberleykaravans.com/kar...ter_system.php

Their heating system is almost exactly like the one I concocted. While I obviously didn’t invent anything new at all, it gives me great confidence that the idea was a good one.

Sergei

[SmokelessJoe]

Is there anyone out there that may have experience with or knowledge of either of these two Diesel Cook Tops:


http://www.webasto.com.au/am/en/am_rv_3988.html



ttp://www.wallas.com/index_eng.php?group=1&type=1


Sergei

[SmokelessJoe]

Is there anyone out there that may have experience with or knowledge of either of these two Diesel Cook Tops:


http://www.webasto.com.au/am/en/am_rv_3988.html



ttp://www.wallas.com/index_eng.php?group=1&type=1


Sergei

[SmokelessJoe]

I'm trying to set up a link to this one too:


ttp://www.wallas.com/index_eng.php?group=1&type=1


Sergei

[bhayden]

You were just missing the leading "h" in http for the link for the Wallas

I'm guessing the Wallas, being a marine stove is going to be a lot more expensive. Especially coming from Finland. Webasto is a well respected brand for marine heaters. Since they don't rate the stoves for marine use I'm guessing the corrosion resistance isn't as great. In other words everythings not stainless steel or some other expensive material. I'll bet you'll have an easier time finding parts and service for the Webasto; especially when you're miles from any yachting centers.

Do you have a ceramic cook top at home? They have the advantage of being easy to clean and for diesel I would hope they help to minimize the odor in the cabin. Be warned, I've never known a boat that didn't smell like diesel; no matter how much the owner says it doesn't

The drawbacks are that the heat control is much less sensitive. It takes longer to heat up and doesn't cool down immediately. Of course you can always take a pot off the stove. In fact another advantage is the whole surface is usable and you never have to worry about balancing a pot half off a burner ring. With our glass cooktop at home we have to use thick bottomed pots that are absolutely flat or the heat conduction is worthless. So unless you already have the cooking gear budget a few hundred loonies for new pots and pans.

-Bernie

[SmokelessJoe]

Bernie:

How do you make that link in the middle of the text, like you did with WALLAS?

I haven’t seen either of the cook tops in the flesh but they look so similar that I’m guessing Webasto is the German knock-off of the Finnish original.

It may be that the Webasto isn’t made for the marine environment but this is hard to imagine as they have such a big presence there.

I agree that the Webasto will have a much bigger service network. This interests me and makes even more sense considering that I’m already using the Webasto TSL heater for the hydronics.

Although they are not yet sold in America I understand that EARTHROAMER in Colorado is switching from Wallas to Webasto. They are apparently seeking government approvals on Webasto’s behalf.

EarthRoamer were perfectly satisfied with Wallas, they say. It’s just that they were propositioned by Webasto.

I am roughing in the fuel supply line to cook top now. I won’t need the actual cooker for a few months so I still have time for research.

I don’t have a ceramic cook top at home but I do like the flush surface, especially in a tiny space like an Argosy.

Sergei

[SmokelessJoe]

Bernie:

Be warned, I've never known a boat that didn't smell like diesel; no matter how much the owner says it doesn't

I don’t know about this; never been on a boat.

But reading comments about Wallas on boat owner’s forums, I’ve never seen a complaint about this.

The burners in these units are completely sealed and draw air and exhaust gases (through the same two way tube) out of the body of the trailer.

My Webasto TSL 17 heater for the hydronic system will also be outside, on the tongue.

There shouldn’t be any sound or small inside.

Sergei

[bhayden]

Sergei,
To get the link embedded under the text just highlight the text you want to be linked and then click on the Insert Link icon (the ball and chain). It'll pop up a dialog box asking for the URL and you just type or better yet paste the URL. Viola, instant linked text. If you have a well formed URL the forum software seems to turn it into a link automagicly. But since you were missing the H in HTTP it didn't see it as a link.

The glass is very nice for clean-up and I think makes a lot of sense for a diesel cooktop. Yeah, it's strange Webasto doesn't market the stoves to the marine industry in North America as they are like the GM of boat heaters. Maybe they figure the market isn't big enough? Most sailboats use alcohol stoves. Alcohol fires have the advantage of being able to be put out with water. The flame is odorless. And since on a sailboat the stove and/or oven need to be on gimbles the alcohol is nice since it's self contained in the stove (no fuel line to flex).

Other things being equal I'd go for the larger dealer network. As far as the smell of diesel I think just the exhaust ends up permeating just about everything. That and the fumes from the tank. Of course I'm hypersensitive to smells and the boats I've been on that really work at keeping it clean aren't objectionable but it's undeniably there.

Oh yeah, start looking for cookwear. It makes a huge difference in how the ceramic tops perform. The good stuff doesn't come cheap but it's nice to cook with. You'll probably end up putting in a ceramic top for the house after you get used to it

-Bernie

[SmokelessJoe]

Bernie:

My hunch that the Webasto was a German knock-off of the Finnish original was close - but no cigar.

Turns out the WEBASTO is MADE by WALLAS IN FINLAND!

I learned this from Bruce Loxton, the owner of Kimberley Kampers (above) in Australia.

I confirmed it with calls to both Earthroamer in Colorado and the Wallas importer, ScanMarine in Seattle, today.

Apparently, WALLAS will keep the marine field in America while WEBASTO will cover the RV category.

That’s why Earthroamer had to switch.

My feeling that a bigger dealer network is best may be valid - but then the importer told me that he thought he might be forced, by Wallas, to perform the service and maintenance for Webasto!

They are apparently the same except for a slight profile change on the CERAN © top.

The Webasto Australia site also claims:

“Even in the mountains it works dependably thanks to an altitude compensation switch”

The sea level Wallas may not have this. It would be worth having, I suppose, unless they want several hundred dollars extra.

The only price I’ve heard so far for the Webasto is several hundred dollars more than the Wallas!

If it's true, I'll have the original, thank you.

Interesting development, this.


Sergei

[bhayden]

Very strange. The importer from Finland is here is Seattle? Unless the stuff comes by air it's a long way from Helsinki to Seattle. Of course just because they are the buisness unit that is the importer doesn't mean they ship through here. Then again, the Yamaha generator I bought last fall was shipped to Kent (south Seattle) and then to Wisonson and they packed the original box in another box and UPSed it back to me.

Interesting that the Webasto is built by Wallas. I would have guessed the Webasto was cheaper since 1) they are a larger volume and 2) usually the only thing more expensive than marketing something as "marine use" is to have it say "for aviation".

If the parts are truely the same they it shouldn't matter for service. Armed with your knowledge of the part numbers you should be able to buy which ever replacement part is cheaper. I just have a hard time believing anything from a marine store is cheaper. However, since this is a rebranded product I guess they just add on a mark-up. I'm sure there's safety certifications that have to be bought for the different markets and I'd guess overall there's more use of diesel stoves in boats than RVs since RVs are 99.9% propane.

If West Marine carries the Wallas then you should be able to get parts and service almost anywhere.

-Bernie