Why did you leave WBCCI

[CanuckStream]

Sounds like an opportunity to educate, rather than distance yourself.

Didn't read the entire thread only the last few posts. People with limited travel experience does not make them bad people, just means they did have an opportunity like those who are more fortunate.

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by jdalrymple

I wonder, if one doesn't like a restaurant, do some continue to eat there?

Sometimes. Not liking the restaurant isn't the same as not liking the food. Plenty of dives have great eats.

In the case of WBCCI, not liking the club isn't the same as not liking the members. Which is why I'm still in the club, despite bad experiences in the first Unit I joined.

But I'll admit, my experiences as an overworked and underappreciated club officer in said Unit have soured me on the notion of ever holding a club office ever again!

[Boxite]

Originally Posted by bwoodtx

I am not aware of anyone who has been made to feel badly for non-participation. If you don't want to participate, eat breakfast, hook up and leave. It is entirely your personal decision and I will still respect you at the next campout. You also had the option to decline being an officer as others have done.

I replied in a PM.

I don't subscribe to the "love it or leave it" philosophies.
The Sunday morning "devotional" was carried out during breakfast...not separately. There was no opportunity to eat breakfast (for which participants paid) and avoid the devotional which was decidedly denominational.
After considerable "lobbying" which I refused on several accounts, I accepted the nomination in an attitude of contributing to the unit which has given us such pleasure and camaraderie. And I hope to serve the office well, which will include guiding it toward less impositional, more inclusive devotionals, along with the kinds of fun activities and rallies for which the unit is noted.

[time2play]

Why is it necessary to have an official devotional at a camping club? People shouldn't have to "choose" to participate or not participate, it shouldn't even be an issue in the first place.

Why can't people just show up for their paid meal and eat without anybody being made to feel uncomfortable? It's a camping club!

[Nelson428]

“The willingness to forgive is a sign of spiritual and emotional maturity. It is one of the great virtues to which we all should aspire. Imagine a world filled with individuals willing both to apologize and to accept an apology. Is there any problem that could not be solved among people who possessed the humility and largeness of spirit and soul to do either -- or both -- when needed.”

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by time2play

Why is it necessary to have an official devotional at a camping club?

Why is it necessary to prevent others from having a devotional at a camping club? Isn't it just as bad to say, "I don't want to pray, so you can't pray, either" as it is to say, "I want to pray, so you have to pray, too"?

I find that if someone is praying to whatever deity they choose, and I don't want to join in, then the most appropriate response is respectful silence until they're done. That works just fine for me, and I can think of anything I want until they're done. Their prayers don't harm me one bit— as long as they don't involve ritual bloodletting or burnt offerings, both of which tend to be messy and unsanitary.

[time2play]

Protagonist, where in my post did I say I wanted to prevent others from having a devotional? Don't put words in my mouth. All I asked is why it has to be official?

Why can't people pray in any way they want before they eat, why does it have to be part of an official schedule?

Once you put something on the schedule, make it official, you then have to decide WHICH religion. How do you choose? The majority rules?

It's just my humble opinion that, just like in a restaurant, people can pray in whatever way they want (or not). But restaurants don't lead people in prayer before they serve a meal, so I just wondered why people in a CAMPING club can't get their meals the same way.

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by time2play

Protagonist, where in my post did I say I wanted to prevent others from having a devotional? Don't put words in my mouth. All I asked is why it has to be official?

Apologies. I misunderstood your intent.

Once you put something on the schedule, make it official, you then have to decide WHICH religion. How do you choose? The majority rules?

At the rallies I've been to where there was a prayer before the meal or meeting, the rally host chooses the events on the schedule, and in the case of the rallies I attended with prayers, the prayer was always generic Christian.

It's just my humble opinion that, just like in a restaurant, people can pray in whatever way they want (or not). But restaurants don't lead people in prayer before they serve a meal, so I just wondered why people in a CAMPING club can't get their meals the same way.

I think my point is still valid, too. It does no harm to have a prayer, and even if it's officially on the schedule, one can still choose to wait quietly— without praying— for everyone else to finish, if that's what one wants. So I honestly still don't see why it's a big deal either way.


And since I don't see it as a big deal either way, I'm going to wait until thread drift shifts the topic away from the appropriateness— or lack thereof— of prayer at a meeting of a camping club before I post to this thread again.

[markdoane]

I guess I wouldn't mind a non-denominational thanks.

Should it be before (Christian), or after (Jewish), or before and after (Muslim), or transcendent (Buddist)?

Very cumbersome.

[NevadaGeo]

Maybe the Jewish lady should have gotten up and taken over the service and made everyone stay until she had done a complete shiva service for them in Hebrew? I'd love to hear how inclusive the group was after that.

[SilverCabin]

Here’s a prayer that I use:

For what we are about to receive
let us be truly thankful
…to those who planted the crops
…to those who cultivated the fields
…to those who gathered the harvest.

For what we are about to receive
let us be truly thankful
to those who prepared it and those who served it.

In this festivity let us remember too
those who have no festivity
those who cannot share this plenty
those whose lives are more affected than our own
by war, oppression, and exploitation
those who are hungry, sick and cold

In sharing this meal
let us be truly thankful
for the good things we have
for the warm hospitality
and for this good company.

[SilverCabin]

...seems like the purpose of this thread has been hijacked.

Came close to leaving the club in 2010, but decided to stay and happy with that decision. Getting involved at the local club and Region levels did the trick for me.

Randy

[J. Morgan]

It seems to me that there are some who are intent on offending, and others who are intent on being offended, both groups intent on making the other 80% choose a side. #JustSayin.

Maybe if everyone thought less about what everyone else thinks, sanity might prevail?

[J-K Georgia]

Maybe someone should start a new thread asking, "Why did you join the WBCCI"

[KK4YZ]

Originally Posted by J-K Georgia

Maybe someone should start a new thread asking, "Why did you join the WBCCI"

Ok. Let me hijack this away from the discomfort with praying.
We joined WBCCI when there was an AS rally in Hiawassee, GA at the N GA fairgrounds.... right down the street from us. We stopped in, met some really nice folks and joined the SECU because we’re looking forward to taking trips with and learning from fellow Airstreamers, being very recent AS owners ourselves. We’re looking forward to our first trip with the group (I’m still working so we need to plan way ahead).
There you have it.

[J-K Georgia]

Originally Posted by SilverCabin

Here’s a prayer that I use:

For what we are about to receive
let us be truly thankful
…to those who planted the crops
…to those who cultivated the fields
…to those who gathered the harvest.

For what we are about to receive
let us be truly thankful
to those who prepared it and those who served it.

In this festivity let us remember too
those who have no festivity
those who cannot share this plenty
those whose lives are more affected than our own
by war, oppression, and exploitation
those who are hungry, sick and cold

In sharing this meal
let us be truly thankful
for the good things we have
for the warm hospitality
and for this good company.

Randy, thank you.
This is a very nice middle ground and should be non offensive to all.
It reminds us to think of others and be grateful.

John

[aftermath]

Originally Posted by Hittenstiehl

...

Knowing what makes different people uncomfortable or hesitant to remain in WBCCI is very important to keeping the organization going.

In reading the archival documents of WBCCI religion was definitely a part of the activities of the early groups but that doesn't mean it needs to or will remain that way....

If you want to keep the organization going you need to not only keep members but you need to seek out new members. I am not a member but looked very seriously into joining years ago. I followed the fight between the WBCCI members and those who were leaving and those who started up an alternate club and all of that got my attention. The religion thing did if for me but I also took issue with the "I'm in the club and you aren't" persuasive feeling I got. Before you say that your chapter is not like that and that I should look for another one to join, let me remind you that it is not as easy as you might think.

The 4 Corners unit started an outing at the Balloon Festival and invited anyone and everyone to come. Membership was not a requirement. We went and had a great time. We returned a couple of years later and found that the participation was way up and that the WBCCI was now pressuring the 4 Corners unit to limit participation of non members. Well, religion was strike one, and this was strike two. When I have to join to participate it takes on an elitist feel that separates people. I commend the leadership of the 4 Corners unit. This is a chapter that, from what I have heard, is doing it right.

If you want the club to survive you will need to focus on being all inclusive. Holding people captive to prayers to your gods is not being inclusive. Those who have said that you can just sit quietly and not participate simply do not get it. Those who go on to say, if you don't like it you can eat and then leave are the root problem of the dwindling numbers.

Concentrate on a club that avoids religion and politics and you will see an increase in interests. Just my measly two cents worth.

[KK4YZ]

Originally Posted by aftermath

If you want to keep the organization going you need to not only keep members but you need to seek out new members. I am not a member but looked very seriously into joining years ago. I followed the fight between the WBCCI members and those who were leaving and those who started up an alternate club and all of that got my attention. The religion thing did if for me but I also took issue with the "I'm in the club and you aren't" persuasive feeling I got. Before you say that your chapter is not like that and that I should look for another one to join, let me remind you that it is not as easy as you might think.

The 4 Corners unit started an outing at the Balloon Festival and invited anyone and everyone to come. Membership was not a requirement. We went and had a great time. We returned a couple of years later and found that the participation was way up and that the WBCCI was now pressuring the 4 Corners unit to limit participation of non members. Well, religion was strike one, and this was strike two. When I have to join to participate it takes on an elitist feel that separates people. I commend the leadership of the 4 Corners unit. This is a chapter that, from what I have heard, is doing it right.

If you want the club to survive you will need to focus on being all inclusive. Holding people captive to prayers to your gods is not being inclusive. Those who have said that you can just sit quietly and not participate simply do not get it. Those who go on to say, if you don't like it you can eat and then leave are the root problem of the dwindling numbers.

Concentrate on a club that avoids religion and politics and you will see an increase in interests. Just my measly two cents worth.

Don’t we have a choice of which group (or unit) to join within WBCCI? It seems to me you join the unit you feel most comfortable with. Are all units identical in interests, practices and personality? I don’t know but wouldn’t think so.
I’m not crazy about trying to force units to pray, not pray, or pray a certain way. Freedom of choice and association....That’s just me.

[Protagonist]

Originally Posted by KK4YZ

Don’t we have a choice of which group (or unit) to join within WBCCI?

I'm on my third Unit (so far). The first was a hot mess, and I only stuck it out as long as I did out of a sense of obligation. I could tell you horror stories about that unit, but suffice to say that it was so bad that from my being "voluntold" to be 2nd VP during my first-ever luncheon with WBCCI, before I had even received my membership badge, until I abdicated my position as president before my term was over because I couldn't stand it anymore, I was appalled at the overall lack of participation. They wanted everything done for them so all they had to do was show up, pay the rally fee, and be entertained. They couldn't even be bothered to call the campground and make their own reservations.

The second unit is a great bunch of folks, but they were too far away, and health problems kept me from participating for the whole year I belonged to that unit.

The third unit seems to be a good fit. Good people willing to share the work, every rally in a different location hosted by a different member and each with a different theme, instead of the president having to do it all for everyone like when I was president of that first unit. And close enough to home that if I have more medical problems in the future, I can still attend some of their functions while I'm at less than full functionality.

[xrvr]

Remember all are welcome at forum rallyes.
L