WBCCIs New Web Site Needs Volunteers

[zlee]

Agreed, and MySQL is integrated with Joomla very closely, if I remember correctly. You can do a lot of things these days without knowing the first thing about databases and still using them extensively, which is really good, because I don't. Even way back when I was looking at Joomla (probably the equivalent of the Middle Ages...), there were extensions that made setting up and working with databases extremely easy, and I'd bet it's even more plug and play now.

[Buttercup]

1) The database we are asking the club to use is FileMaker. It is a package that a few of us in the ECC have experience with and can build maintain without the need to call for outside help. We have already built a demo database and layout(s) and were successful in importing data from the old FoxPro database the club is currently using. However, a member of the executive committee is comparing Filmaker with other database systems to be sure that the best option for the club is chosen.

2) We are looking into all of the things we can do with the database after it (and the web site) are fully established, Real Time data is one item. Another is modernizing the workflow for the office staff - that means printing envelopes, membership cards, using Constant Contact. With a new member management system, the doors are open to streamlining lots of things that are probably more manual tasks.

3) Online renewal and joining are items that have been requested by the executive committee and we are working to get that established as quickly as possible. One issue we have is that the current system is a bottoms-up approch wherein a member joins at the unit level and the dues are sent up to International. Online joining/renewing will probably require us to reverse that process and HQ will have to send dues to the unit. This will create more work for the office staff. We are discussing ways to accomplish this without creating more work on the staff than is necessary - they are pretty busy gals working there!

4) There is already a database for caravan information. But with the new system we will be able to integrate that information into all of the members other details. Currently, they are really maintained separately.

5) At this time the new database will not impact or alter the way the regions and units web sites are operated or what they display. The problem is that we have most units and regions on the WBCCI.net site, which the club just took over. But we have a large number of sites that are not operated on that platform. They are using their own hosting and content management options. So, we will not be able to benefit those units & regions as directly as the ones we are servicing inhouse. However, part of our efforts are to upgrade the WBCCI.net infrastructure and then integrate that information into the new WBCCI.org site so that things like searches can be done on that content. This has nothing to do with the membership database efforts.

I have to say that the efforts to modernize the club membership database does not stem from all of the great things we could do with a new database. Rather, we are working to upgrade it simply because the existing platform, FoxPro, is outdated and the club is being quoted a hefty price to upgrade it as it exists now. The ECC believes that it can do this itself with the efforts of volunteers and save the club a ton of money. But as a secondary benefit, yes, we will be able to accomplish many features that will directly and indirectly benefit the club membership and improve the way we do business.

Now - back to looking for volunteers.... I am setting people up now so they can start to get their hands dirty. Who wants to step up next?

[nvestysly]

Originally Posted by Buttercup

Now - back to looking for volunteers.... I am setting people up now so they can start to get their hands dirty. Who wants to step up next?

Volunteer for what? Create some web pages, copy & paste some pictures, scan the Blue Beret and post it online?

I've read this entire thread and I don't see anything that tells me the fundamental changes that are going to lead this club (electronically) in the next several decades. It appears that we are basing the entire electronic future of this club on $300 software.

Oracle may not be the right answer. I'm not a computer jock but I've worked with some so I'm sure there are solutions other than Oracle. However, Oracle is at least one of the things that should be considered or at a minimum used for comparison.

I've worked with college interns that do this stuff in their sleep. I realize that's not really true but you get the idea. By the way, many college interns will work for next to nothing.

Why do we think that updating a few web pages and adding some fancy graphics here and there will accomplish much of anything? We need a seamless electronic interface for our members and the outside world. This club needs to put forth a cohesive, user-friendly means of dealing with this members and potential members. Most people don't pick up the phone or send letters via snail mail. They send email, they tweet, they post on facebook, they compose electronic photo albums and share information electronically. People expect this in day-to-day interaction. Our web site needs to be dynamic (and supported by a dynamic database). Individuals updating web pages periodically and working around members vacation schedules, other commitments, etc. is a losing proposition in my mind.

You can put a short-term bandage on the electronic face of WBCCI and make it look good temporarily but it won't last without the buidling blocks to support it for the long run.

So I'll ask again. Volunteer for what? Give me a URL and a password. I'll make a web page. I'll upload the Blue Beret. Is that the kind of volunteer you want? That does not fix the electronic problems this club is faced with.

Lucius

[Chuck]

Originally Posted by nvestysly

Oracle may not be the right answer. I'm not a computer jock

well, thats pretty clear.

Originally Posted by nvestysly

However, Oracle is at least one of the things that should be considered or at a minimum used for comparison.

Why? if we were building a kite, would you suggest we consider engaging Boeing?



This is a camping club with a few thousand members; not amazon.com.

And there appears to be quite a few IT professionals in the club who understand the scope of the club's needs, and understand what the appropriate tools are to fill them.

[nvestysly]

Until my post #19 and a response in post #22 there was nothing in this thread that posed what the problem was that needed to be addressed.

While I have gone off the topic of volunteers I was simply attempting to get ECC to understand a point of view which I think is very valid - this club needs an electronic makeover and it starts with a robust database. I do not want to see volunteer time used to patch together short-sighted solutions to BIG problems.

In post #22 there was a reasonable outline of what the ECC is attempting to accomplish. However, it still seems premature to be enlisting volunteers to update web pages without a well-defined roadmap to what this club needs in terms of an electronic database.

I don't consider what WBCCI needs to do as analogous to building a kite. It's probably much more akin to a radio control airplane. I think there is probably much more similarity between a radio control airplane and Boeing than there is a similarity between building a kite and what WBCCI needs.

Oracle in itself is not Boeing. It simply allows you to grow to Boeing size. Using Oracle does not necessarily mean lots of dollars have to be spent. Yes, there are alternatives to Oracle. Most of the alternatives will probably build a pretty good radio control plane. But if we want to build a kite we're on the wrong path.

Okay, so we're not Amazon. But we certainly need a comprehensive make-over and the database is at the core of the changes. There are a number of IT people and capable volunteers involved. That's good. Why then the need for a "shot in the dark" over here on Airforums asking for volunteers? If we're building a kite then build it. In a year when it's damaged, and somebody wants to change the color of the tail... Oh well, guess we'll have to take the system off-line for a few days, maybe weeks, while our volunteers fix the system. Oh, that's right, it'll take few months - the volunteers are at the rally, then they're going on a caravan, then they're sick, then, then, ......

We've seen this time and time again. It's the proverbial penny-wise and pound-foolish method of fixing the problem.

Many of the issues with this club are the shortsighted methods of its leaders. It certainly seems to me that we are going down the same ill-fated path. A path that will be considered a major improvement by IBT and touted as a breakthrough for the 20th century (sic) and I still will not be able to pay my renewal online, I will not be able to obtain and real electronic membership list, I will have to order my red numbers via fax and snail mail, nobody will know if the caravan is full (or not), signed checks from my bank will be the norm, the Blue Beret will be a PDF (at best), I will still have to vote with a piece of paper, and people will still be carrying around little blue books and telling me which paragraph I've violated.

I hope I'm wrong.

By the way, I'm willing to help. But show me the roadmap and time-line before I spend my energy working on 20th century (sic) ideas.

Lucius

[zlee]

Originally Posted by nvestysly

Until my post #19 and a response in post #22 there was nothing in this thread that posed what the problem was that needed to be addressed.

While I have gone off the topic of volunteers I was simply attempting to get ECC to understand a point of view which I think is very valid - this club needs an electronic makeover and it starts with a robust database. I do not want to see volunteer time used to patch together short-sighted solutions to BIG problems.

In post #22 there was a reasonable outline of what the ECC is attempting to accomplish. However, it still seems premature to be enlisting volunteers to update web pages without a well-defined roadmap to what this club needs in terms of an electronic database.

I don't consider what WBCCI needs to do as analogous to building a kite. It's probably much more akin to a radio control airplane. I think there is probably much more similarity between a radio control airplane and Boeing than there is a similarity between building a kite and what WBCCI needs.

Oracle in itself is not Boeing. It simply allows you to grow to Boeing size. Using Oracle does not necessarily mean lots of dollars have to be spent. Yes, there are alternatives to Oracle. Most of the alternatives will probably build a pretty good radio control plane. But if we want to build a kite we're on the wrong path.

Okay, so we're not Amazon. But we certainly need a comprehensive make-over and the database is at the core of the changes. There are a number of IT people and capable volunteers involved. That's good. Why then the need for a "shot in the dark" over here on Airforums asking for volunteers? If we're building a kite then build it. In a year when it's damaged, and somebody wants to change the color of the tail... Oh well, guess we'll have to take the system off-line for a few days, maybe weeks, while our volunteers fix the system. Oh, that's right, it'll take few months - the volunteers are at the rally, then they're going on a caravan, then they're sick, then, then, ......

We've seen this time and time again. It's the proverbial penny-wise and pound-foolish method of fixing the problem.

Many of the issues with this club are the shortsighted methods of its leaders. It certainly seems to me that we are going down the same ill-fated path. A path that will be considered a major improvement by IBT and touted as a breakthrough for the 20th century (sic) and I still will not be able to pay my renewal online, I will not be able to obtain and real electronic membership list, I will have to order my red numbers via fax and snail mail, nobody will know if the caravan is full (or not), signed checks from my bank will be the norm, the Blue Beret will be a PDF (at best), I will still have to vote with a piece of paper, and people will still be carrying around little blue books and telling me which paragraph I've violated.

I hope I'm wrong.

By the way, I'm willing to help. But show me the roadmap and time-line before I spend my energy working on 20th century (sic) ideas.

Lucius

None of which has anything to do with databases.

[Nuvite-F]

Originally Posted by nvestysly

Many of the issues with this club are the shortsighted methods of its leaders. It certainly seems to me that we are going down the same ill-fated path.
Lucius

Golly, Lucius, it sounds like you are far better qualified to direct this effort than the present ECC. Since the ECC is appointed by the Executive Committee, you need to introduce yourself to the Executive Committee and explain to them what you have just explained to us. Then you can volunteer to lead the new, improved ECC.

And you know something? It will not be the first time the Executive Committee has heard this. Nor the second. Nor the third. . .
.

[Air Apparent]

Originally Posted by nvestysly

It certainly seems to me that we are going down the same ill-fated path. A path that will be considered a major improvement by IBT and touted as a breakthrough for the 20th century (sic) and I still will not be able to pay my renewal online, I will not be able to obtain and real electronic membership list, I will have to order my red numbers via fax and snail mail, nobody will know if the caravan is full (or not), signed checks from my bank will be the norm, the Blue Beret will be a PDF (at best), I will still have to vote with a piece of paper, and people will still be carrying around little blue books and telling me which paragraph I've violated.

Lucius

WOW - A tremendous amout of criticism without seeing or knowing the whole picture (game plan / roadmap). Give Buttercup and the ECC a chance.

It sounds like your for Oracle or nothing.

Anything will be better than what the WBCCI now has. Let's not kill it before it can even get started.

This is the viewpoint of a non techie just reading this thread.

[Buttercup]

Lucius,

I understand where you are coming from and the position that you are taking. However, we have our road map and have been working on it for over a year now. Thus far, we have accomplished all that we set out to do as outlined in posts above. We know that perhaps the solutions we have produced may not be perfect, but no solution ever is.

However, this thread is not about the database, it is about the web site. And I understand that updating content may not be your bag and perhaps even a waste of your time. That is fine. We still are proceeding with the mandates we have been given. Most of those mandates are out of the purview of the general public.

If you are as passionate as you seem to be about the database issue, I can recommend that you submit your proposal to the Executive Committee as soon as possible. All ideas should be explored fully in this issue. Include your complete vision along with budgetary requirements and perhaps examples of what you are talking about to them for their consideration. As I said, they are reviewing the issue right now and are probably quite receptive to visions that might far exceed the collective vision of our committee. Keep in mind that the office staff is the people who will be mostly impacted by any changes and they need a solution that is simple to use, reliable and easy to maintain. The leadership is going to want a solution that has low cost at the outset, low cost for the duration of its hopefully long life and flexibility to adapt to the growing needs of the club. I would be happy to review your proposal and offer suggestions based on my experience in this area and dealing with the club for the past 5+ years I have been involved in these issues.

Now - returning this thread to the subject for which it is intended....

[Mikethefixit]

IF you aint got nuffin in writting Buttercup,Id tread very lightly. I have watched this club for a few years now and those who have tried to take the halter of this stubborn mule and lead it to water,as it were, are now on the outside lookin in.
I will not see your reply as I will now use the thread tool givin by this site.

[zlee]

Man. What does ANY of this club politics stuff have to do with getting volunteers in to help with the website? If you don't want to volunteer, don't. A database is not a website. A website is not the organization. If you don't like the organizational aspects of a club, trying to change it through the website design is probably not very efficient use of anyone's time.

For instance, take just one thing mentioned that people seem to want:

Can we easily take payments through a website, speaking from the tech POV? Yes, it's quite easy. No problem. We'll just add a page to do that. BUT. The stuff that surrounds taking payments, OTOH, is much more difficult. Putting in a payment page means making sure it's on a secure cert, there's a payment there for the cert. No problem, that's a comparatively small amount. Oh, we need a shopping cart -- shall we pay for one, or find a free one and get that to work? Then there's the gateway, so then you have to get a merchant account. Who is paying for that merchant account, first, and second, do the fees for that transaction come out of club fees, do those numbers add up? Are dues going to have to go up to make up for that for that, and by how much? Have you got the accounts set up for that in your accounting office to track all of that? Oh, what kind of system do you use for your books, and do you want to put that stuff in manually or shall we get a programmer in, so we can effectively track who has made payments and who hasn't? Maybe we should just revamp the books entirely? By the way, who's paying for all of this?

Okay. That's one thing. What else did you want, now?

[fraubear]

As a member of the Electronic Communictions Committee I was delighted to read nvestysly's post #19. S/he has outlined PRECISELY what the ECC envisions for the new WBCCI website. As the ECC representative at the IBT I had very productive discussions with the EC on technology plans for the future. Everyone I spoke with, including International Presidents, Region Officers, and members, were acutely aware of how our club is stuck in the 20th Century and needs to use modern technology to serve the information needs of our members. Everything mentioned in #19 is already in the planning stages.

We have people on our committee with a variety of expertise (database architects, web-site designers, systems consultants, etc.) and all of us are working very hard on our three priorities: 1) new wbcci website, 2) upgrade of wbcci.net WordPress software to the current version, and 3) installation of a new database that will interface with the new website and allow members dynamic access to the WBCCI database.

We are confident we can do that within the budget allocation awarded us at the IBT in January.

I hope members will give us a chance to prove what we can do.Per Buttercup's initial request.... "It's better to light a single candle than curse the darkness."

If you have a sincere interest in helping the club move forward please offer to help us load and maintain content on the website. The website isn't the end of our work. It's just the beginning. Contact ecc@wbcci.net to volunteer and I'll send you a list of web site sections that need to be maintained. You can choose your section.

Your club and the ECC need people who have some time, expertise, and a positive attitude.

Carolyn

[HumbleGuy]

i just got a 73 over lander and would like to join and I have 18 years as web design and know jombla and phpfourms and many oters ar you thinking of hosting it your self on a VPS or a host?

hit me up also do database rollovers

[Buttercup]

HumbleGuy,

We need all of our volunteers to be full members of WBCCI for obvious reasons. So I encourage you to please join the club through your local unit and then do contact us to become a part of this effort. I will PM you to talk about this more. If you know Joomla and can spell Database, you have just become my new best friend (with apologies to all my other best friends out there - you all are still my best friend).

Tim

[Aviator]

Speaking from the viewpoint of a frustrated WBCCI member, thank you to all who are working on this project. I don't have any of the necessary skills needed to help, but am very grateful to those of you who do and are willing to volunteer.

If this club is going to be sustainable, electronic access for the membership is vital!

Again thank you. I will be eagerly looking forward to the results of your work.