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Old 10-02-2010, 03:06 PM   #29
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You all know how I feel about the CLUB,I cant bring myself to even type the letters let along say em.
Andy and the crew here have givin me and everyone else of course, a WONDERFUL TOOL its called the
IGGY BUTTON
That button I will now push and not have to read this garbage.
Thanks ANDY AND CREW
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Old 10-02-2010, 03:30 PM   #30
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I may be able to answer this question....

When the new club forums were first announced, I heard what the details were - hosted and donated bu a used trailer vendor, said vendor was not a member in good standing in WBCCI, there would be cooperative ads on the site, etc... I was quite shocked and concerned for the club. I expressed those concerns here on AirForums, but also to the Electronic Communications Committee chair, Charlie Burke. Those concerns fell on deaf ears at best.
I decided to show WBCCI they have a forums without depending on a 3rd party vendor, they could own the whole forums and manage it themselves AND I even offered to donate to them the forums and domain name and all.
I created a domain name - wbcciforums.com, installed a free forums software on the site, recovered all the posts from the old site and then announced here on AirForums and SaveWally that the demo site existed and was free for the taking for WBCCI.
The answer I got for this was a Cease and Desist letter from WBCCI's lawyers. The claim - that I was trying to portrait my self as an official forums for WBCCI. I was just trying to show that there was a better alternative.
So, to answer your question, if that is done, it will likely result in a C & D letter to whomever put those forums together without WBCCI's permission.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Park View Post
Why can't the host (who I understand was independent of WBCCI) just register a new domain like wbyamforum.com and point that at their forum? Then, all those original posts and valuable information can be made available to the membership again.

Further, being no longer endorsed by WBCCI there would not be a need to kowtow to the executive committees - resulting in free conversation and open dissent?

Or am I misunderstanding how the forum was configured/run?
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Old 10-02-2010, 03:41 PM   #31
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Why is it every time something occurs, like this issue of closing the WBCCI website, that we can't get a quick and straight answer as to why?
Because the folks "in the know" are too busy trying to decide which Thor Moho they like the best... so they can surreptitiously amend the bylaws to allow them into the club before their Airstream branded mohos need to be traded in.
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Old 10-02-2010, 04:20 PM   #32
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Hey Tim maybe you should contact them again and submit your name to be on that standing committee, that way it would be done right.
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Old 10-02-2010, 05:16 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
The answer I got for this was a Cease and Desist letter from WBCCI's lawyers. The claim - that I was trying to portrait my self as an official forums for WBCCI. I was just trying to show that there was a better alternative.
So, to answer your question, if that is done, it will likely result in a C & D letter to whomever put those forums together without WBCCI's permission.
I don't wish to cross any lines, but I wish to speak freely, so I shall say this in the hope both you and they take this as constructive commentary.

I think you made a miscalculation by registering wbcciforums.com without their permission, as they do own a trademark on "WBCCI" and I also believe that they could have simply asked you to hand over the domain, but that they have to be seen to be defending their trademark or they risk losing it. Their response was clumsy but legally correct.

I have found from reading of other WBCCI C&D letters here, that they are overly broad, and make demands that are not supported by any basis in law. If you simply registered "wallysforums.com" or similar, they would have no claim against you as they do not have a trademark (and cannot trademark) a person's name if that person is a real person and historical figure.The simple statement "This site is neither affiliated with or endorsed by WBCCI" eliminates any basis of trying to cause confusion.

If the site takes a position of being a criticism or protest site, you get additional protections. For example: "wbccisucks.com" is protected speech.

So in summary, if you feel you don't like it, you're quite free to do something about it without fear of retaliation. Well, you know that's not strictly true, as I have experienced myself. Individuals thinking they're acting in the best interests of something they believe in can be quite threatening, bellicose or worse.

Of course, if you run a forum that prefers a point of view and censors opinions (unlike this forum, which doesn't censor opinions, just abusive presentations of opinions) some people may dislike your work - they're welcome not to register or use it, if you're not affiliated to WBCCI.

Is affiliation vital to the success of your forum?

In My Humble Opinion.
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Old 10-02-2010, 05:16 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by LI Pets View Post
Hey Tim maybe you should contact them again and submit your name to be on that standing committee, that way it would be done right.
I think a more appropriate approach would be an appology letter and invitation to join the new efforts. Even then, he might not want to join a committee with folks who sent him a cease & desist letter, filed grievances against him and placed him on the miserable user hack. Although those folks can claim they did not know of anything going on, Tim pretty much documented everything and was not treated very nice. No one stood up for him or listened in the past, why should he trust them and help them now?
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Old 10-02-2010, 05:53 PM   #35
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Andy, there's a big difference in the current IP's position/attitude in running the club along with his next two successors, they are very different from his predecessors.

Also the Committee didn't send him the letter
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Old 10-02-2010, 05:56 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Park View Post
as they do own a trademark on "WBCCI" and I also believe that they could have simply asked you to hand over the domain, but that they have to be seen to be defending their trademark or they risk losing it. Their response was clumsy but legally correct.
Dave WBCCI is NOT a trademark, they were not legally correct.
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Old 10-02-2010, 06:08 PM   #37
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Word Mark WALLY BYAM'S CARAVAN CLUB, INC.
Goods and Services IC 200. US 200. G & S: INDICATING MEMBERSHIP IN THE ORGANIZATION. FIRST USE: 19550800. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19550800
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 72063521
Filing Date December 2, 1958
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Registration Number 0695445
Registration Date March 29, 1960
Owner (REGISTRANT) WALLY BYAM CARAVAN CLUB, INC. CORPORATION OHIO JACKSON CENTER OHIO
(LAST LISTED OWNER) WALLY BYAM CARAVAN CLUB INTERNATIONAL, INC. CORPORATION BY ASSIGNMENT, BY ASSIGNMENT OHIO 803 E. PIKE STREET PO BOX 612 JACKSON CENTER OHIO 45334

Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
Attorney of Record B. JOSEPH SCHAEFF
Type of Mark COLLECTIVE MEMBERSHIP MARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECTION 8(10-YR) 20090508.
Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 20090508
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

WBCCI is a registered D/B/A covered by this trademark.

This does not give or infer protection for the name "Wally Byam"

Source: tess2.uspto.gov
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Old 10-02-2010, 06:14 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Park View Post

WBCCI is a registered D/B/A covered by this trademark.

This does not give or infer protection for the name "Wally Byam"

Source: tess2.uspto.gov
I don't see the above on uspto?
Can you tell me where this "WBCCI is a registered D/B/A covered by this trademark" appears ?

this is what appears on uspto?

Word Mark WALLY BYAM'S CARAVAN CLUB, INC. Goods and Services IC 200. US 200. G & S: INDICATING MEMBERSHIP IN THE ORGANIZATION. FIRST USE: 19550800. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19550800 Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING Serial Number 72063521 Filing Date December 2, 1958 Current Filing Basis 1A Original Filing Basis 1A Registration Number 0695445 Registration Date March 29, 1960 Owner (REGISTRANT) WALLY BYAM CARAVAN CLUB, INC. CORPORATION OHIO JACKSON CENTER OHIO(LAST LISTED OWNER) WALLY BYAM CARAVAN CLUB INTERNATIONAL, INC. CORPORATION BY ASSIGNMENT, BY ASSIGNMENT OHIO 803 E. PIKE STREET PO BOX 612 JACKSON CENTER OHIO 45334
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED Attorney of Record B. JOSEPH SCHAEFF Type of Mark COLLECTIVE MEMBERSHIP MARK Register PRINCIPAL Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECTION 8(10-YR) 20090508. Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 20090508 Live/Dead Indicator LIVE
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Old 10-02-2010, 06:23 PM   #39
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Dave,

I do graciously accept your criticisms. But I have to offer that WBCCI can only assert that they have trademark and copyrights to the letters "WBCCI. They actually do not. What they have trademark over is "Wally Byan Caravan Club, Incorporated" and also "Blue Beret". Those are the only 2 trademarks WBCCI currently maintains.

I, as a private citizen can register any domain name and publish content to it. I do not need permission from the club to do that. It was my intent to freely, without strings attached, give that domain name, server space and database to WBCCI so that they could set up a forums without having to depend on anybody else to provide that. Once the club sent that letter, I immediately contacted Cindy Reed and told her what I was doing. We both discussed the path the forums were taking. Despite my objections to that direction, I pointed the domain name to the new forums. I was not vindictive, I was completely cooperative.

But you are correct in that I miscalculated WBCCIs response when I did that. I expected that there would be some consideration of my offer, but it was too late.

I have expressed my concerns and my feelings since before the forums were created that the entire WBCCI web infrastructure should be owned and operated by WBCCI. To not do so means that the club is at risk at losing those assets. The door is wide open to the club no longer having a forums or a web site. The counter to that argument was that the site is already maintained by a 3rd party... so it was all good. Now look where we are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Park View Post
I don't wish to cross any lines, but I wish to speak freely, so I shall say this in the hope both you and they take this as constructive commentary.

I think you made a miscalculation by registering wbcciforums.com without their permission, as they do own a trademark on "WBCCI" and I also believe that they could have simply asked you to hand over the domain, but that they have to be seen to be defending their trademark or they risk losing it. Their response was clumsy but legally correct.

I have found from reading of other WBCCI C&D letters here, that they are overly broad, and make demands that are not supported by any basis in law. If you simply registered "wallysforums.com" or similar, they would have no claim against you as they do not have a trademark (and cannot trademark) a person's name if that person is a real person and historical figure.The simple statement "This site is neither affiliated with or endorsed by WBCCI" eliminates any basis of trying to cause confusion.

If the site takes a position of being a criticism or protest site, you get additional protections. For example: "wbccisucks.com" is protected speech.

So in summary, if you feel you don't like it, you're quite free to do something about it without fear of retaliation. Well, you know that's not strictly true, as I have experienced myself. Individuals thinking they're acting in the best interests of something they believe in can be quite threatening, bellicose or worse.

Of course, if you run a forum that prefers a point of view and censors opinions (unlike this forum, which doesn't censor opinions, just abusive presentations of opinions) some people may dislike your work - they're welcome not to register or use it, if you're not affiliated to WBCCI.

Is affiliation vital to the success of your forum?

In My Humble Opinion.
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Old 10-02-2010, 06:35 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
....I have to offer that WBCCI can only assert that they have trademark and copyrights to the letters "WBCCI." They actually do not. What they have trademark over is "Wally Byan Caravan Club, Incorporated" and also "Blue Beret". Those are the only 2 trademarks WBCCI currently maintains.
That is correct, in terms of fact, but incorrect in terms of law. The "Wally Byam Caravan Club, Inc" name and identity is protected. WBCCI is the formal short name of the club, and they can only operate with this name by registering a D/B/A at the local court house (or however they may do it in their state).

That said, courts have consistently found that where a company has a registered name and identity, and they register a D/B/A that is synonymous with that identity, to such a point that a member of the public might be "reasonably confused" if someone else used the moniker, that moniker is given similar protections to the original trademark.

I know it's unfair. Further, WBCCI appears to not actually have the funds remaining to pursue such a case to completion anyway. They count on your resources being depleted before theirs are.

WBCCI should, ideally, register WBCCI explicitly, and should also defensively register WBCCIsucks.com and other obvious protest domain names to keep obvious related protest sites a little more obscure.

Background info: I have some working knowledge of the law in this area having registered a protest site aimed at a certain well-known aggressive and litigious cult and having been C&D'd.

This is not legal advice. IANAL. But I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.
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Old 10-02-2010, 07:06 PM   #41
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Ha! - Holiday Inn! I love it. Well, I think it is important to point out that the issue with me registering a domain name was resolved peaceably with me pointing the domain to the new forums. There have been less favorable outcomes for the club - like Region 3 for example who had their domain name hijacked. To the best of my knowledge, nothing was done about that for years.
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Old 10-02-2010, 07:54 PM   #42
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Has it been less than a week between two Airstream forums going down, WBCCI and Save Wally? Now the only game in town is Air Forums which is a great forum but I thought the other two forums took some of the traffic off the main Airstream forum. I have no idea why both folded spontaneously but now thank heavens we have Air Forums to post to. There most be something to be said for staying the course and not going under. I am glad we have a place to express our comments. Thanks Andy!!!
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